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9/23/2020 3:47:02 PM
Posted: 7/1/2012 8:19:06 AM EDT
when i was stationed at ft. bragg, FATAL VISION was released as a book and tv miniseries. just about the whole post went to 544 castle drive to see where the murders took place. at the time the house had plywood covering windows and doors with the crime scene still preserved. did the doctor kill his family?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 8:56:57 AM EDT
no
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:06:36 AM EDT
I've always leaned towards "not guilty". The neighbors description of the brunette near the scene matching McDonalds description leaves me with doubt.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:13:28 AM EDT
Colette, who had been pregnant with her third child, was lying on the floor of her bedroom. She had been repeatedly clubbed (both her arms were broken) and stabbed 37 times (21 times with an ice pick and 16 times with a knife). Her husband's torn pajama top was draped upon her chest. On the headboard of the bed the word "pig" was written in blood.

Five-year-old Kimberley was found in her bed, having been clubbed in the head and stabbed in the neck with a knife between eight and ten times. Two-year-old Kristen was found in her own bed; she had been stabbed with a knife 33 times and stabbed with an ice pick 15 times.[2][3][4]

MacDonald was found next to his wife alive but wounded. His wounds did not come anywhere close to what his family had suffered.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

The number of stab wounds means something.

The disparity of wounds between the Captain and the other member of his family also mean something.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-


MacDonald told investigators that on the evening of February 16, he had fallen asleep on the living room couch. He told investigators that he was sleeping on the couch because his youngest daughter, Kristen, had been in bed with his wife and had wet his side of the bed. He was later awakened by the sounds of Colette and Kimberley's screams. As he rose from the living room couch to go to their aid, he was attacked by three male intruders.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

So, with a sleeping Green Beret on the living room couch, 3 male intruders, and 1 female intruder, break into the house, attack Macdonald's pregnant wife, and 2 children. The bedrooms going off a hallway leading from the living room. The other 3 victims are brutally murdered, while the male victim, that claims to have fought with his attackers, is only lightly injured.

I could go over the problems with that scenario, but just pretend you are looking at Tommy Lee Jones, dressed as a Sheriff, looking up from a newspaper, with a look that implies he has just heard the dumbest ting ever uttered, in the history of the world.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:15:08 AM EDT
I think he's guilty.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:18:47 AM EDT
The evidence seems to point to him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald

Investigation

The army's Criminal Investigation Division (C.I.D.) did not believe MacDonald's version of events. As they studied the physical evidence, it did not seem to support the story told by MacDonald. The living room, where MacDonald had supposedly fought for his life against three armed assailants, showed little sign of a struggle apart from an overturned coffee table and knocked over flower plant.[7] Fibers from MacDonald's torn pajama top were not found in the living room, where he claimed that it was torn. Instead fibers from the pajama top were found under the body of Colette and in Kimberley's and Kristen's bedrooms. One fiber was found under Kristen's fingernail. The murder weapons were found outside the back door. They were a kitchen knife, an ice pick, and a yard of lumber wood; all three were determined to have come from the MacDonald house. The tips of surgical gloves were found beneath the headboard where "pig" was written in blood; they were identical in composition to a supply MacDonald kept in the kitchen.

The MacDonald family all had different blood types — a statistical anomaly that was used to track what had happened in the apartment. Investigators theorized that a fight began in the master bedroom between MacDonald and his wife, Colette, possibly arguing over Kristen wetting MacDonald's side of the bed while sleeping there. Investigators speculated that Colette probably hit her husband on the forehead with a hairbrush which resulted in his head wound. As MacDonald retaliated by beating her with a piece of lumber, Kimberley — whose brain serum was found in the doorway — may have walked in after hearing the commotion and was struck at least once on the head, possibly by accident. Believing Colette dead, MacDonald carried the mortally wounded Kimberley back to her bedroom. After stabbing Kimberley (whose blood was discovered on the pajama top MacDonald said he had not been wearing while in her room), he went to Kristen's room, intent on disposing of the last remaining potential witness. Before he could do so, Colette — whose blood was found on Kristen's bedcovers and on one wall of the room — apparently regained consciousness, stumbled in, and threw herself over her daughter. After killing both of them, MacDonald wrapped his wife's body in a sheet and carried it back to the master bedroom, leaving a smudged footprint of Colette's blood on his way out of Kristen's bedroom.[9]

C.I.D. investigators then theorized that MacDonald attempted to cover up the murders, using articles on the Manson Family murders that he'd found in an issue of Esquire in the living room. He then took a scalpel blade from a supply in the hallway closet and went to the adjacent bathroom and stabbed himself once. Putting on surgical gloves from his supply, he went to the master bedroom, where he used Colette's blood to write "pig" on the headboard. Finally, he laid his torn pajama top over the dead Colette and repeatedly stabbed her in the chest with an ice pick. MacDonald used the telephone to summon an ambulance, discarded the weapons out the back door, and lay by the body of his wife while he waited for the military police to arrive.

On April 6, 1970, Army investigators interrogated MacDonald. Less than a month later, on May 1, the Army formally charged MacDonald with the murder of his family.[10]

Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:19:16 AM EDT


not guilty

Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:19:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By myitinaw:


not guilty



Why?
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:22:09 AM EDT
One of my law school professors was Bernie Segal, who represented McDonald. He was always convinced McDonald was innocent. After talking to him I tend to agree.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:23:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JLH3:
One of my law school professors was Bernie Segal, who represented McDonald. He was always convinced McDonald was innocent. After talking to him I tend to agree.


What did he say?
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:25:20 AM EDT
Guilty,Give that cunt two .22s to the back of the head
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:25:29 AM EDT


1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then).



2. He was an Army doctor (Medical Corps) with the rank of captain. He was allowed to be discharged (honorably) while under investigation for the murders and is no longer a commissioned officer of any sort and not entitled to be called captain..



3. When he murdered his family he was assigned as a group surgeon (not "the" group surgeon) with the 3rd Special Forces Group (ABN). In those days, he would have worn a green beret while assigned to the 3rd SFG(A) (organizational uniform item) with the so-called "candy bar" (the Unit Identification Bar ) with his captain's insignia above the bar - instead of the shield-shaped "flash" with his captain's insignia on it which (in those days) identified a SF-qualified Soldier assigned to an SF group (now SF-qualified Soldiers wear the SF shoulder tab and all Soldiers assigned to a Group wear the flash). He is not, and never was, a "Green Beret".



4. McDonald's initial Article 32 investigation was influenced by the 3rd Group commander (then-Colonel Bobwire Bob Kingston) and the charges were dismissed. McDonald was providing Mrs Kingston with prescription antidepressants and the rumor was that there was more to it.



5. McDonald wove a web of lies to his wife and he was taking steroids and other drugs.



6. He is a manipulative sociopath.



7. He held his youngest daughter on his lap and stabbed he repeatedly while she tried to fend off his attack (nature of the wounds and her defensive wounds). He is a monster.



8. My father was stationed at Fort Bragg at the time (I was in high school). No one believed the hippie angle.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:27:44 AM EDT


Always seemed guilty to me.


Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:34:52 AM EDT
Oh, and the crime scene DNA testing pretty much proves his guilt.



Unfortunately Wikipedia has the best synopsis:





DNA testing

Lawyers representing MacDonald were given the right to pursue DNA tests on limited hair and blood evidence in 1997 by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Testing began in December 2000. Defense lawyers hoped that the results would tie Stoeckley and her associate Greg Mitchell to the scene.



DNA test results released by the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory on March 10, 2006, showed that neither Stoeckley's nor Mitchell's DNA matched any of the tested exhibits. A limb hair found stuck to the left palm of Colette MacDonald matched the DNA profile of Jeffrey MacDonald. MacDonald's DNA profile also matched body hairs found on the multi-colored bedspread from the master bed and on the top sheet of Kristen MacDonald's bed. A hair found in Colette's right palm was sourced as her own. Three hairs, one from the bedsheet, one found in Colette's body outline in the area of her legs, and one found beneath the fingernail of Kristen, did not match the DNA profile of any MacDonald family member or known suspect.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald#cite_note-Government_Chart_regarding_DNA_results-24][25][/url]





The three unknown hairs aren't out of line when you consider that the girls had friends and so did Collette.  Heck, the one in the bed could have come from one of McDonald's sluts (he was kinda of surprised when the CID confronted him with his affairs).
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:36:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JLH3:
One of my law school professors was Bernie Segal, who represented McDonald. He was always convinced McDonald was innocent. After talking to him I tend to agree.


I don't need to hear any more to KNOW he's guilty.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:39:15 AM EDT
Guilty
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:47:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then)..



Thought SF Doctors going through the Q was a recent thing.

Don't know enough about the rest to form an intelligent opinion.

Back to my lane.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:48:50 AM EDT
Just reading this thread has made me sick to my stomach. Sounds like there is plenty of evidence. No reason that SOAB should still be breathing.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:51:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Covertness:
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then)..



Thought SF Doctors going through the Q was a recent thing.

Don't know enough about the rest to form an intelligent opinion.

Back to my lane.


My friend was a doc with the 11th SFG (in the 80s-90s?). That was a reserve unit. I don't know if he went to a Q course but he is a hard MoFo. He is in his early 60s and runs with a weight vest at 8500ft elevation and can shoot like a mother fucker.
He always said McDonald was guilty as well.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:56:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2012 10:08:15 AM EDT by nightstalker]
Even though Joe McGinnis has turned into a douche, he chronicles the lies pretty well.

Jeff could probably kick 3 arfcommers asses at a time, so his minor wounds don't match the scenario too well.

Joseph Wambaugh was asked to write the story before McGinniss.  

"I had interviewed dozens and dozens of people who were survivors of horrific crimes—some immediately after the event, some many years later," Wambaugh recalled. "I had never, in all my experience, seen anyone describe an event like that in the almost cavalier manner that Dr. MacDonald described it."
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:58:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Originally Posted By Covertness:
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then)..



Thought SF Doctors going through the Q was a recent thing.

Don't know enough about the rest to form an intelligent opinion.

Back to my lane.


My friend was a doc with the 11th SFG (in the 80s-90s?). That was a reserve unit. I don't know if he went to a Q course but he is a hard MoFo. He is in his early 60s and runs with a weight vest at 8500ft elevation and can shoot like a mother fucker.
He always said McDonald was guilty as well.


I know a Doc who's been working with ODAs for a long long time. He just went through the Q. I though it was because the regs had changed.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 10:10:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2012 10:12:48 AM EDT by LightningII]
I know someone who knew him in the SF world.
Their opinion was that he had done it; the crime scene just didn't add up any other way.
He didn't have anything good to say about MacDonald, period.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 11:09:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mech2007:


Always seemed guilty to me.




Link Posted: 7/1/2012 11:32:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Guilty


Link Posted: 7/1/2012 12:35:49 PM EDT




Originally Posted By Covertness:



Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:



Originally Posted By Covertness:



Originally Posted By ODA_564:



1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then)..






Thought SF Doctors going through the Q was a recent thing.



Don't know enough about the rest to form an intelligent opinion.



Back to my lane.





My friend was a doc with the 11th SFG (in the 80s-90s?). That was a reserve unit. I don't know if he went to a Q course but he is a hard MoFo. He is in his early 60s and runs with a weight vest at 8500ft elevation and can shoot like a mother fucker.

He always said McDonald was guilty as well.





I know a Doc who's been working with ODAs for a long long time. He just went through the Q. I though it was because the regs had changed.



Medical officers (to include veterinarians) assigned to SF groups have the opportunity to apply to go through SFQC, as do chaplains. They don't have to and it's "space available".



We're talking about 1970. It was a far different Army (draft, Vietnam, etc.). Rules from the 1980s, 90s, 2000s are different than 1970s, pre-18 branch rules. In the 1970s attending the SF Officers Course only gave you the 'S' skill identifier. In the 1970s you could take be awarded the 'S' skill identifier without attending either the SFOC or SFQC (it was complicated and the rules changed constantly - it also applied mostly to USAR and ARNG Soldiers assigned to USAR or ARNG SF units).



McDonald could have 'audited' SFOC (unevaluated participation - people sat in classes, participated in training - but weren't awarded the 'S' skill identifier), but he didn't. He could have asked to formally attend SFOC while assigned to 3rd SFG (A) and actually be awarded his 'S' identifier. He didn't.



He was / is a lying, cheating shitbag whose personal life was a swirl of lies and drugs that led the psychopath to murder his family.

Link Posted: 7/1/2012 12:45:26 PM EDT
Guilty, no doubt.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 3:45:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LightningII:
I know someone who knew him in the SF world.
Their opinion was that he had done it; the crime scene just didn't add up any other way.
He didn't have anything good to say about MacDonald, period.


thats the opinion i heard while stationed at ft. bragg.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 8:04:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then).

2. He was an Army doctor (Medical Corps) with the rank of captain. He was allowed to be discharged (honorably) while under investigation for the murders and is no longer a commissioned officer of any sort and not entitled to be called captain..

3. When he murdered his family he was assigned as a group surgeon (not "the" group surgeon) with the 3rd Special Forces Group (ABN). In those days, he would have worn a green beret while assigned to the 3rd SFG(A) (organizational uniform item) with the so-called "candy bar" (the Unit Identification Bar ) with his captain's insignia above the bar - instead of the shield-shaped "flash" with his captain's insignia on it which (in those days) identified a SF-qualified Soldier assigned to an SF group (now SF-qualified Soldiers wear the SF shoulder tab and all Soldiers assigned to a Group wear the flash). He is not, and never was, a "Green Beret".

4. McDonald's initial Article 32 investigation was influenced by the 3rd Group commander (then-Colonel Bobwire Bob Kingston) and the charges were dismissed. McDonald was providing Mrs Kingston with prescription antidepressants and the rumor was that there was more to it.

5. McDonald wove a web of lies to his wife and he was taking steroids and other drugs.

6. He is a manipulative sociopath.

7. He held his youngest daughter on his lap and stabbed he repeatedly while she tried to fend off his attack (nature of the wounds and her defensive wounds). He is a monster.

8. My father was stationed at Fort Bragg at the time (I was in high school). No one believed the hippie angle.


every pic of him in his beret shows a full flash... not a weenie bar.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 8:12:15 PM EDT
Guilty sack of shit is guilty.  Throw away the key already.
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:15:17 PM EDT



Originally Posted By rwalters17:



Originally Posted By JLH3:

One of my law school professors was Bernie Segal, who represented McDonald. He was always convinced McDonald was innocent. After talking to him I tend to agree.




What did he say?
It's been a few years, but there was supposed to be a bunch of "evidence" the Army never released. I have no idea what it was. I can say I respected the hell out if Bernie and learned more from him than I can say.





 
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:19:29 PM EDT
What was his motive?
Link Posted: 7/1/2012 9:30:05 PM EDT
I'd have to read more into it but my gut reaction from the reading the Wikipedia entry is guilty.
 
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:17:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garwj:
What was his motive?


he didn't want a family anymore?
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:23:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garwj:
What was his motive?


The best lies start based in truth, and end based in truth.

From what he claimed, I suspect a plausible "motive" is that his daughter pee'd the master bed, that his wife let her sleep in, and he woke up "wet", and lost it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:34:08 AM EDT
Guilty.
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:36:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Colette, who had been pregnant with her third child, was lying on the floor of her bedroom. She had been repeatedly clubbed (both her arms were broken) and stabbed 37 times (21 times with an ice pick and 16 times with a knife). Her husband's torn pajama top was draped upon her chest. On the headboard of the bed the word "pig" was written in blood.

Five-year-old Kimberley was found in her bed, having been clubbed in the head and stabbed in the neck with a knife between eight and ten times. Two-year-old Kristen was found in her own bed; she had been stabbed with a knife 33 times and stabbed with an ice pick 15 times.[2][3][4]

MacDonald was found next to his wife alive but wounded. His wounds did not come anywhere close to what his family had suffered.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

The number of stab wounds means something.

The disparity of wounds between the Captain and the other member of his family also mean something.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––-


MacDonald told investigators that on the evening of February 16, he had fallen asleep on the living room couch. He told investigators that he was sleeping on the couch because his youngest daughter, Kristen, had been in bed with his wife and had wet his side of the bed. He was later awakened by the sounds of Colette and Kimberley's screams. As he rose from the living room couch to go to their aid, he was attacked by three male intruders.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

So, with a sleeping Green Beret on the living room couch, 3 male intruders, and 1 female intruder, break into the house, attack Macdonald's pregnant wife, and 2 children. The bedrooms going off a hallway leading from the living room. The other 3 victims are brutally murdered, while the male victim, that claims to have fought with his attackers, is only lightly injured.

I could go over the problems with that scenario, but just pretend you are looking at Tommy Lee Jones, dressed as a Sheriff, looking up from a newspaper, with a look that implies he has just heard the dumbest ting ever uttered, in the history of the world.


guilty as sin.  Fuck that piece of shit, I hope he gets ass raped daily.
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:39:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

1. The Federal prisoner Jeffery McDonald is not a "Green Beret". He never attended the Special Forces Officer Qualification Course (as it was then) and he was never awarded the "S" skill identifier (as it was then).

2. He was an Army doctor (Medical Corps) with the rank of captain. He was allowed to be discharged (honorably) while under investigation for the murders and is no longer a commissioned officer of any sort and not entitled to be called captain..

3. When he murdered his family he was assigned as a group surgeon (not "the" group surgeon) with the 3rd Special Forces Group (ABN). In those days, he would have worn a green beret while assigned to the 3rd SFG(A) (organizational uniform item) with the so-called "candy bar" (the Unit Identification Bar ) with his captain's insignia above the bar - instead of the shield-shaped "flash" with his captain's insignia on it which (in those days) identified a SF-qualified Soldier assigned to an SF group (now SF-qualified Soldiers wear the SF shoulder tab and all Soldiers assigned to a Group wear the flash). He is not, and never was, a "Green Beret".

4. McDonald's initial Article 32 investigation was influenced by the 3rd Group commander (then-Colonel Bobwire Bob Kingston) and the charges were dismissed. McDonald was providing Mrs Kingston with prescription antidepressants and the rumor was that there was more to it.

5. McDonald wove a web of lies to his wife and he was taking steroids and other drugs.

6. He is a manipulative sociopath.

7. He held his youngest daughter on his lap and stabbed he repeatedly while she tried to fend off his attack (nature of the wounds and her defensive wounds). He is a monster.

8. My father was stationed at Fort Bragg at the time (I was in high school). No one believed the hippie angle.


Good fact filled post.
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:44:39 PM EDT
i concur! his story doesn't add up!
Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:54:12 PM EDT
my gut feeling is that he is guily
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