Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/29/2005 5:19:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 4:35:32 PM EDT by thompsondd]
First, it was the cheating scandals in the early 80s. Then the alledged abuse stories during SERE in the early 90's. Then, the 'my honor student raped your honor student' rape scandals in the mid-late 90s. Drug factories in cadet rooms. Now, this..........................................

www.krdotv.com/DisplayStory.asp?id=10037


NEW ACCUSATIONS AT AIR FORCE ACADEMY

Published Report Alleges One Cadet May Have Attempted To Kill Another Over Sexual Assault Incident.
by Michael Waller

8/28/2005

AN INVESTIGATION INTO ALLEGATIONS THAT ONE CADET TRIED TO KILL ANOTHER IS COMING TO LIGHT AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY.

IN A PUBLISHED REPORT (GAZETTE) THE FATHER OF FRESHMAN CADET NICHOLAS KHAN SAYS A SENIOR CADET TRIED TO KILL HIS SON ON MARCH 13TH.

THE SENIOR CADET WAS SAID TO BE UPSET THAT NICHOLAS KAHN FILED A REPORT SAYING THE SENIOR HAD COERCED A FEMALE FRESHMAN CADET INTO HAVING SEX WITH HIM.

THE SENIOR THEN ALLEGEDLY THREW KAHN OUT OF A DORM WINDOW WHERE KAHN FELL 30 FEET AND BROKE HIS BACK.

THE INVESTIGATION WRAPPED UP ON AUGUST 16TH AND IS NOW BEING REVIEWED BY ACADEMY LAWYERS.



I attended the Zoo. I say either straighten the little shits up, or shut the door.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:28:10 AM EDT
As a USAF Vet (retired MSgt), all I can say is "WTF is going on there????!!!!!!"
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:32:24 AM EDT
No matter how good the training and oversight you are always going to have those who get drunk on the power they obtain. It sounds like this Cadet let it all go to his head . . . now can we let the process work? It does not seem that they are sweeping this under the rug.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:38:33 AM EDT
When "Bring Me Men" came down, the place should have been bulldozed.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:39:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 4:29:50 PM EDT by thompsondd]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
When "Bring Me Men" came down, the place should have been bulldozed.









ETA: For those who don't know, the ramp leading up to the cadet area was adorned with the phrase "Bring Me Men.." after the Samuel Walter Foss poem (below).

It was removed in 2003 after the sexual assault scandal went public. I guess somehow the ramp was responsible..........................


Air Force Academy Removes 'Men' Sign

AIR FORCE ACADEMY, Colo. (AP)--Large letters reading ``Bring Me Men'' that critics say became a symbol of a male-dominated culture at the Air Force Academy have been removed.

The sign, above a ramp where cadets formed to march, was taken down Friday under a directive that emerged from an Air Force investigation of a sexual assault scandal at the academy.

Five leaders at the academy have been reassigned as the Air Force responds to complaints that female cadets' reports of sexual assaults haven't been taken seriously and that some of those who complained were punished. At least 56 female cadets reported being sexually assaulted over the past 10 years.

Advisers had urged removal of the sign in 1999 but academy officials said then that it would stay because it was part of the academy's history and tradition.




BRING ME MEN...
By Samuel Walter Foss

Bring me men to match my mountains,
Bring me men to match my plains;
Men to chart a starry empire,
Men to make celestial claims.

Bring me men to match my prairies,
Men to match my inland seas;
Men to sail beyond my oceans,
Reaching for the galaxies.

These are men to build a nation,
Join the mountains to the sky;
Men of faith and inspiration,
Bring me men, bring me men, bring me men!

Bring me men to match my forests,
Bring me men to match my shore;
Men to guard the mighty ramparts,
Men to stand at freedom's door.

Bring me men to match my mountains,
Men to match their majesty;
Men to climb beyond their summits,
Searching for their destiny.

These are men to build a nation,
Join the mountains to the sky,
Men of faith and inspiration,
Bring me men, bring me men,bring me men!

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:27:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 4:30:15 PM EDT by thompsondd]
and was replaced with this...........................



Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:33:42 PM EDT
isnt "coercing a female" the only way to get laid? I can't say I remember ever getting laid for not talking to a girl. The freshman should have minded his business but there is no excuse for throwing him out of a window 30 feet off the ground.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:41:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:50:48 PM EDT
10 years ago USNA was having tons of scandals. Cheating rings, car theft rings, drug dealing rings and various drug freak-outs, handcuffing female mids to urinals to humiliate them. It was one thing after another for a couple of years there.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:05:37 PM EDT
As a former enlisted Marine, I cannot believe the the bullshit these so-called higher educated jackasses pull on their fellow cadets? I lived in many a barracks with no one ranking higher than a Sgt. & this sort of bullshit was no where to be found!

Do these assholes lose their dignity as they go higher in their college courses? This is to each academy, not just one, they've all had their moments.

Someone please explain this to me?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:12:47 PM EDT
Being active duty AF, I agree with Sylvan, but I have another perspective.

In a town of 8,000, no matter what screening process you use there's going to be dirtbags. They only become apparent after they do something despicable. It's how the dirtbags are treated that defines what the Academy, as an institution, will put up with, and they haven't responded well.

I say put a couple of heads on a stick in front of the dining hall, and the word will get out quickly that that shit will NOT be tolerated.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:14:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:27:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
The problem is, the cadets themselves aren't positive what is tolerated and isn't.




Excuse me? These assholes don't know what is or is not proper conduct? Did I miss this class at Parris Island? Or do the "best & brightest" at the service academies not know how a "gentleman" should act???????
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:32:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
The problem is, the cadets themselves aren't positive what is tolerated and isn't.




Excuse me? These assholes don't know what is or is not proper conduct? Did I miss this class at Parris Island? Or do the "best & brightest" at the service academies not know how a "gentleman" should act???????



You have every right to be outraged, but Sylvan's right. There hasn't been adult leadership at the Zoo in a long time, and the cadets have always been more "contained" than "shaped." Add to that the PC crap they have to put up with (i.e., the things they CAN'T do to a cadet because it would be "insensitive"), and the fact that some classes of cadets are untouchable because they're on the football/basketball/rugby team, and that does create a double or sometimes triple standard at the Academy.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 5:39:22 PM EDT by Bklyn_Irish]
Despite the recent government-implemented unpleasantness, I grow more and more proud of my alma mater every day.


There hasn't been adult leadership at the Zoo in a long time...


Don't forget LTG John Rosa.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:38:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:43:35 PM EDT
Duty, Honor, Country at West Point.

Duty, Honor, Country, Maybe? at Colorado Springs

No leadership.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
As a former enlisted Marine, I cannot believe the the bullshit these so-called higher educated jackasses pull on their fellow cadets? I lived in many a barracks with no one ranking higher than a Sgt. & this sort of bullshit was no where to be found!

Do these assholes lose their dignity as they go higher in their college courses? This is to each academy, not just one, they've all had their moments.

Someone please explain this to me?



For some, their career is their only concern. For you, an operation might be a life-threatening experience, for others, it's a good career opportunity.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:53:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:
isnt "coercing a female" the only way to get laid? I can't say I remember ever getting laid for not talking to a girl. The freshman should have minded his business but there is no excuse for throwing him out of a window 30 feet off the ground.



If the freshman knows of a violation of the code of conduct, he is bound to report it. It is his business.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:00:33 PM EDT
I think a PORTION of what is causing this is the Air Force's reputation. They aren't viewed by MANY airmen and cadets are really a warfighting group anymore like the Army views itself. Many people view themselves as businessmen that have to wear a uniform. (Speaking obviously of the REMFs of which are a majority within the AF (they are needed though)).

There is too much of a disconnect with the rest of the military (I don't know anything of the Navy for instance so I won't comment there). The AF has some of the smartest people, sure, but duty, honor, country? is right. They are outsourcing even MP jobs (gate guards within the US) and things like that. I am sure the private contractors are great but it just doesn't feel right when you're entering a "Military" base that is guarded by civilians (without guns in my experience).

I remember the article someone posted here about AF people (is it that now officially or still airmen?) bitching about 4 month tours that consisted of flying UAVs well inside base compounds. Meanwhile Army soldiers were doing 15 month combat deployments and heading for another 12 after a 12 month break.

There is a HUGE disconnect between the air force and the war. That doesn't apply the pilots/MPs in Iraq/aircrews/spec. ops guys but then again that is what percentage of the AF? 5 maybe 10.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:01:07 PM EDT
Another thing that should be brought into the equation: Almost every cadet there is some type of Congressional appointee.

GENERALLY, the Congressman makes his appointments based on a number of reasonable factors, best man wins, etc.

OTOH, I'm reasonably sure that a certain number of cadets are there just because of the fact that their fathers have clout with Senator so and so.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:07:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By limaxray:
In a town of 8,000, no matter what screening process you use there's going to be dirtbags.



BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

With what it takes to get into one of the military acadamies there is no excuse for this sort of behavior, none. These types should be and could be weeded out.

Wit the level of academic, leadership, and athletic performace required to get into one of these schools this should not happen at all. It takes a congressional apointment to get in. Unless you are active duty, gurad, ROTC, son or daugther of a KIA; those are exceptions and not the norm.

There was a thread on here about should we expect more from military officers a while back, we must expect more from these acadamy grads. They are supposed to be the best of the best, cream of the crop.

The point to the rant is that these schools pass over a lot of high caliber students, a whole lot, and there is no excuse for that sort of action buy the students and no excuse for these schools letting assholes like this in.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:42:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:57:58 PM EDT by thompsondd]
My experience (at USAFA) was that most cadets knew that if they could get into USAFA, they could get into anywhere. Coupled with the fact that most are smart enough to know that they aren't pursuing the most lucrative of careers. Despite AF officers making damned good $$$ compared to other branches and especially over the enlisted ranks. I mention this because there was a mentality among some "Ah, F&*^ it!" and off they would go to big $$$ in the private world. Not everyone had that mentality, but it was certainly present in some. It was like the AF should be heppy they were there. "Oh well, I'll just drop and go to Cal Poly".

There is also the creme de le creme attitude that almost all of us had/have. It is part of the process of seperating the wheat from the chafe. Not that that makes it right, but humility was easy to lose after having so much smoke blown up your ass your whole life, thinking that you are somehow better, more worthy, or better stock, than everyone else.

I was there in the 80's when it was still somewhat tough. We had a FULL smack year and a Hell Week. We earned our Recognition. Now it is given. We went through SERE. etc.

I personally knew Presidential appointees (one in my squad - his dad was a MOH winner in VietNam, posthumelously). My squadron commander my 3 degree year was a Rhodes scholar. Most were people of quality and character who understood the honor and diginity expected of a cadet AS WELL AS THE PRIVILEDGE of being one. Granted, we were also 18,19,20 something year old hormonial men (boys) and we did some really stupid stuff, but nothing like goes on now.

There were the few though. It sounds like the inmates took over the asylum not long after I left.

It is now the 'kinder, gentler USAFA'.

I think freshman year lasts 3 months now, if it even still exists. There is no more SERE. For awhile, even the 4th class was at permanent 'at rest'. No pulling chins, pinning elbows, etc. Not sure if that is still the case.

I'm sorry, but changing uniforms and taking down landmarks like the Bring Me Men ramp won't make these problems go away.

Here is the ARFcom version of USAFA. It is called the eDoDo. There was an underground paper comic from the 'brownshoe' days called the DoDo (a spoof on the Falcon mascot). It's Internet big brother is the eDoDo. www.edodo.org

See what 'they' (some current and some former cadets) about this new 'scandal': www.edodo.org/rumormill/viewtopic.php?t=10173

Here is a VERY interesting look into the Rape Scandal: www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2005/robbins082705.htm

Ouch!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:53:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:14:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thompsondd:

See what 'they' (some current and some former cadets) about this new 'scandal': www.edodo.org/rumormill/viewtopic.php?t=10173



I find this most interesting:


I knew him. He wasnt right in the head. And the way the story is going around the wing right now, the kid had been accepted to Duke or another one of those high-brow schools. He wanted out of the Academy, but being as he was prior, he still had a commitment to serve. So he jumped. Either he's medically dq'd, or he's psychologically dq'd... problem solved. The funny thing is, the dumb f*&^ hit a tree on the way down and screwed up his spine. So my take on this is:
1) If he jumped, and he's trying to blame a firsty for it, the firsty should find him.. and actually throw him out a window. Double jeapordy, and all.
2) If the firsty pushed him, unlikely, but possible... then why the f*&^, after the first rips the screen off your window and tells you someone on the t-zo is calling your name, do you WALK TOWARDS THE WINDOW?... You have to be f*&^%$#' kidding me. Either way. The kid should have been trown out the other side of the hall.. 6 stories down instead of 2. Then we wouldn't be having this problem.

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:36:02 AM EDT

I served as an enlisted man at "The Zoo" in 1975-76.
When I was there, so much as joking with an Upperclassmen could get an enlisted person in deep doo-doo. One complaint to an ATO and you were screwed. And yet, Cadets were at liberty to
disrespect and mistreat each other at will, it seemed.
The first class of females arrived that year, and there have been problems ever since.
The AF has never really managed to deal with the Coed concept well at any level.
Whether it's coed enlisted barracks, or the Academy, the rules have always been dumb/hazy/poorly enforced.
Leadership by example seems to be a way of the past at the Academy, and that is a damn shame.

I remember being proud to have served at one of the best educational institutions in the country back then, now I just shake my head and shudder when I hear of another "episode".

DaddyDett
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:18:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By piccolo:
Another thing that should be brought into the equation: Almost every cadet there is some type of Congressional appointee.

GENERALLY, the Congressman makes his appointments based on a number of reasonable factors, best man wins, etc.

OTOH, I'm reasonably sure that a certain number of cadets are there just because of the fact that their fathers have clout with Senator so and so.


the congressional appointment is the easiest part of academy acceptance.
You still have to have the grades and test scores.




Still, the ingredient of politics enters the equation. When that happens, all bets are off.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 12:31:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
The first class of females arrived that year, and there have been problems ever since.

DaddyDett



Once double standards are created, it's a short walk to everything else going to hell.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 1:15:19 PM EDT
Yup, that place has gone downhill since I left about five years ago...

No matter what happens, someone will always get through the screening process that shouldn't have. I remember one guy constantly read books about homemade explosives and a climbing rig set up in the closet to jump out the window if "they" came for him! Yeah, not right in the head...

There are a few things I learned there...

You aren't much different from the person who showed up the first day when you leave - if Mom and Dad had you straightened out when you showed up, all they could do was make you "blue."

There is always a back story - what comes forward isn't always the truth... i.e., a friend of mine was a cadet squadron commander there in 2001 (when the rape thing started). He had a freshmen girl approach him and told him that she was raped. He got all the proper authorities involved and started the process of investigating all the allegations. Long story short, the girl wanted out but her folks wouldn't let her quit, so she made the story up. Do I trust that guy who told me the story? Hell yes, I've even flown combat with him.

There should be more cadet/enlisted interaction at the Academy - and I don't mean the guys chasing hot dental techs. I mean mentoring and the like. My first experiences with enlisted folks was when I started flying C-5s. After a couple trips, the Es started getting me straightened out...

There should be no recruited atheletes.... Yup, none... You can't have double standards...

Spooky
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:38:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 5:47:23 AM EDT by Bklyn_Irish]

Originally Posted By Spooky130:
Yup, that place has gone downhill since I left about five years ago...

No matter what happens, someone will always get through the screening process that shouldn't have. I remember one guy constantly read books about homemade explosives and a climbing rig set up in the closet to jump out the window if "they" came for him! Yeah, not right in the head...

There are a few things I learned there...

You aren't much different from the person who showed up the first day when you leave - if Mom and Dad had you straightened out when you showed up, all they could do was make you "blue."

There is always a back story - what comes forward isn't always the truth... i.e., a friend of mine was a cadet squadron commander there in 2001 (when the rape thing started). He had a freshmen girl approach him and told him that she was raped. He got all the proper authorities involved and started the process of investigating all the allegations. Long story short, the girl wanted out but her folks wouldn't let her quit, so she made the story up. Do I trust that guy who told me the story? Hell yes, I've even flown combat with him.

There should be more cadet/enlisted interaction at the Academy - and I don't mean the guys chasing hot dental techs. I mean mentoring and the like. My first experiences with enlisted folks was when I started flying C-5s. After a couple trips, the Es started getting me straightened out...

There should be no recruited atheletes.... Yup, none... You can't have double standards...

Spooky



+1 on no recruited athletes.

Alumni from the academies, Citadel, VMI, Norwich, A&M, etc. do not write checks because the team is winning.
Top Top