Reading the topic on the Government keeping the child from the mother for 75 days, got me wanting to try another post to remind every how the government can force their way into your lives and make important life decisions for you.  I tried this once before and people got caught up in the background story of our relationship, which does not matter.  Mistakes we made, we moved on are making the best of it!  We are not FSA and we pay more than our "fair share" of taxes.  What matters is that the government has told us that we have to hand our child over to a stranger or risk losing the child ourselves...

My SO and I are being reminded everyday that the government can do whatever in the fuck the want to destroy your lives and get away with it Scott Free.  The backstory is shitty, but the father of the child killed himself while she was 3 months pregnant and I from day one have been our child's father.  She was entitled to his social security, (we put it in an account for her! It's not ours! Again we pay more in taxes each year that she will get from the government.  We all hate the government so it seemed fair to take something back), which caused mom to get a paternity test.  This showed what she knew, but confirmed to "paternal" grandparents that grandchild was of their deceased son.  Fine and dandy, but they are not part of our lives and we made a decision to raise this child as our own with our families who graciously accepted her as their own.  That is our decision to make and where it gets completely screwed up is that his parents sued us for visitation rights and won.  They had seen the child twice in a year (day one) and some point around 6 months and my SO made it clear she did not want them to be in the child's life as we had a good thing going.  Again, unless they raised this child, why would the grandparents deserve a second of her time?  She will find out the truth in the future, but that is not the courts job to decide, which they made it clear that it was somehow up to them.  I understand the grandparents visitation laws, but they were not designed to force relationships that did not exist or were not of significance.  But that's exactly what the state of Indiana has done!

After our initial trial the courts granted the grandfather 4 supervised visitations over two months and then unsupervised twice a month there forward.  We don't even know the guy and we are supposed to just drop our child off at his door in two weeks and hope for the best.  How fucking sickening is that?  Even worse it is breaking our relationship down as Mom is constantly stressed about this.  It is absolutely eating her up inside that she could be arrested or have her child taken away if she does not comply!  The guys is simply weird and won't even look at her when she tries to talk to him about all of this.  He clearly want's nothing to do with the mother, which again is bad for the child!  I was raised in a divorced family and I know firsthand what it feels like to have two parties that want nothing to do with eachother.  It add's nothing but stress and confusion.  She tried to talk to him yesterday about the "unsupervised" visit coming up and wouldn't even listen to her.

As for the order.  They made stipulations that neither side can put down the other. The grandfather can't tell her who the paternal father is.  And that the court recommends both sides come to an agreement as to when to tell the child about her father.  Plus a few others that simply benefit the grandfather.  WHAT???? How can that be legal?  That is the mothers choice and the courts have told her she has to tell her child about her father or face the court mandating the truth if the paternal grandparents is unhappy with the mothers decision.  

What happened to the right's of Parents?  Why should a parent that provides a awesome home and life to a child be forced to allow strangers into their child's everyday life.  Well because the government said so.  Even worse even though it's just for paternal grandparents, he's allowed to have almost anyone over and parade her around life some fucking idol to his worthless son.  He made it clear to us he want's to make up for the time he lost with his son through our child.  The law is all about "best interest of the child."  How is being used as a reminder of your paternal father who couldn't stand that fact you were going to be born be good for a child?

We have already spent 10k fighting it and it's looking like a losing battle and more money will be falling from our pockets. A parent should not have to fight to keep a person out of their child's life!  

We've hired a specialist to run the appeals process, but every stay we have tried to put a hold on the order has been rejected and it seems pretty clear the courts don't give two shits about making the correct decision.  They just made the "fair" one for both side.  You know sometimes one side has to give up their child so another can make up for being a terrible father.  Yep, real fair!  Even better they then give you stipulations on how to raise your child to inform her about her past.  How is that constitutional?

Honestly I'm pissed and I can't get any work done because I can't fathom that it has come to this.  Simply another vent.  

Anyone think it would be worth writing all of my officials? State, Local, etc? News?  It just seems like such a stretch that they can tell a mother who she must have in her child's life.  Again I understand the law for grandparents that raised children for years and were forced to give them back to parents, but I do not believe it is right to force relationships!

There is a loophole that she could give her up for adoption to me and relinquish her rights, but that simply is not right or good for mom.  Plus we know the government would step in and probably nullify that decision.  

Simply as a loss and looking for help or ideas.  Or better yet a reminder as to how much of a fucked up NANNY STATE our country has become.

 

Have you formerly adopted the child? This would legitimize your position more than just- "the guy raising someone's kid".


My life evolved from a similar situation, except I was the kid. I got adopted by my step dad just for this reason. Kept the paternal grandparent's from trying to take me away- which is ultimately their goal. Visitation is just the first step that they go for.

I will offer you this advice: Use the system to your advantage, even if it means doing something unethical.

What happens to the visitation order if you move to a state that doesn't recognize grandparental rights?

It's a shitty situation.  My biological dad died in a car accident when I was less than a month old and every time I was sent to his parents for the weekend, I did feel like I was being paraded around.  They seriously got off on having a pity party all the time.  Years later, my uncle killed himself leaving behind two young boys and I never heard from them again (I was in junior high, yes it was up to them to reach out to me) because they had new sympathy trophies.  I wish it was all in my head, but it became pretty obvious and uncomfortable when I was maybe eight years old if not sooner.  Fortunately since I'm alive, I can keep my psychotic mother from seeing my kids without "grandparents rights" coming into play.  It would be shitty if something were to happen to me and that crazy bitch were to get the courts to force my husband to let her see them, when she isn't allowed near them when I'm alive.

how old is the grandfather?

this problem might eventually take care of itself

the guy's not going to live forever


sounds like you should adopt the kid

not necessarily with the mom giving up rights

that probably wouldn't do anything and might sort of harm you marriage


that's my 2 cents worth of guesswork

Why in heavens name should the Grandparent relationship be severed, because you think you know best or don't want anything to do with them? That's her FAMILY. Period. Remember she'll be old enough to some day know that you not only didn't want her remaining family a part of her life, not only that, but acitively campaigned to severe that relationship. That's their Grand child...put yourself in their shoes and think about being excluded from YOUR child.

On one hand you're doing something very fine by raising her, and on the other I think you're despicable for what you're doing.

Law states that even if I adopt her, as long as mom is still the legal guardian, it changes nothing.  Court did ask her if we were married, but again marriage seems to mean nothing these days, and we didn't really have intentions of going that route quite yet.  We failed once, weren't in a hurry to sign paperwork that doesen't change how we feel.  We were together 7 solid years, married just shy of two and took a year off.  High school sweethearts don't always work :) .  

My problem is the law about grandparents right's has nothing concerning my role, so I shouldn't matter, but of course the comissioner (we couldn't even get a real judge, which really pissed me off) seemed to think it might matter do to a question he asked her.  Again, not his question to ask, but he did.  

I'm just really pissed at how this whole thing has played out.  Especially a part I did leave out.  Court mandated they do counseling together and during the 4th meeting he walked out and said he was done.  Of course they ruled this was inadmissable to the case.  The counselor even showed up to state that she felt it was not in the bet interest, but comissioner would not hear it.



And not to be rude, put yourself in the parents shoes.  Which is what we are battling.  Typically judges are older and most likely grandparents.  We were warned that they might lean towards grandparents, despite the mother being fit to make decisions and the childs best interest.  Imagine a stranger who you were forced to tell your story in front of while spending thousands of dollars tell you who you have to have in your childs life.  It's sickening.  It's frustrating.  It's wrong.

They did not have a relationship with this man, he in fact wanted her and his son not to have a relationship, but after he peaced out. Bam, we need to makeup for how we were before.  But again it was inadmissable because the party he told it too is 6' under.

This image came to mind as I read your post.  This is what our government is capable of.

Legally adopt the child. all of that BS will stop immediately.

ETA: Just read you are not married to her. Therefore, you have no legal rights in this situation and the court views her as a single mother who's spouse comitted suicide. Of course they will side with the grandparents... that is, until you marry her and adopt the child legally.

Correct.  Depsite the fact we gave them evidence as to my family caring for her as one of their own, they did not take it into account.  I get that it would of helped, but marriage made our relationship worse, it's not the fairy tale they lead you to believe as your growing up.  For us it didn't change anything, we have lived together with child since day one, in my house.  

Just frustratred honestly. I'm trying to do the right thing with her, and despite that we have almost no control of the situation.  Yes actions have consequences, but that should be said for him as well.  He drove his son away and now she is the fix for that family, which is not good for her because it's not for her, it's for them.

Per the law, marriage and adoption change nothing.  She would have to legally give the child to me and only me (or any non-blood relative), if the state didn't stop it first.

lesson dont invite the man into you're life.

while it sucks, that is still there biogacial grandkid maybe try and work something out?

I remember your earlier thread.

I believe now what I believed then: that the "rights" of someone living with the child and her mother, who has not adopted the child nor remarried the mother, do not supercede the rights of the child's biological paternal grandparents.  The grandparents have a blood tie with the child, you do not.

Its bullshit. Grandparents do not have 'rights' over a child. Only parents do.

I argued that and here's how my lawyer put it, although they call it "rights" it is not truly a right, but is simply visitation.  They have no "rights", simply something ordered by the court based off courts opinion or law.  Laws are not necessarily rights, but like we learn all the time the government often trumps our natural rights with "laws".  

The name of the law is often said as "grandparents rights", but I believe is "grandparents visitation" which we all pertain to as giving them rights to a child. The wording is wrong and pertains to no rights, simply visitation.  That's how the court makes it ok, they are not infringing on your rights by ordering this according to them.  It's visitation, which apparently is acceptable and in our case we are forced to abide to them.

I understand how many of you feel I am pushing this... She want's the same thing I want, I'm simply the one here typing it.  Please try not to forget that.

No such thing as grand parent rights.

We lived in Virginia when my in-laws (who lived in PA) filed suit for grandparents rights.  They claimed we weren't bringing our children to see them enough.    Well, long story short - VA told them to piss up a rope.  The state in which you live means everything.

I have nothing coc compliant to say about those 'grand parents'

I find this sickening.  I love my grandchildren more than anything in the world.  If my son passed away and my daughter in-law remarried and the new husband didn't want me to see my grandkids anymore, I would be heartbroken, literally.  I would do anything it takes to see them, including using the law.

You think your situation is different because they didn't have a relationship, but that most likely wasn't their fault, the child was kept from them, which is just as heart breaking.

To know that a grandchild of mine, my blood, is out there and I couldn't see him is a horrible, horrible thought.  I don't want to say what I think of someone who would do that to a grandparent.

Says the 13er..  

My in-laws were seeing our children 3-4 times/year.  They made no effort to see the children, just thought we should bring them up (200 miles) every weekend!  Basically, in our case - the state of VA says that grandparents have no rights to the children unless there is a pre-existing relationship that is beneficial to the child.  For example, if we had lived w/ the in-laws for the first 5 years of their lives & then up & moved.  Then, we never allowed the grandparents to see them.  Or, if the grandparents had raised the children for us, and then we regained custody.  They would have a pre-existing relationship that the children would "miss".  Where this entire issue gets sticky is if ONE of the parents wants the grandparents involved and the other doesn't.

What happened in my case?  The in-laws have no relationship with my kids & they screwed their relationship with their daughter.  They've visited with our children 5x in the past 6 years.  And, that is only because my wife wanted to be nice.  I told them to FOAD and have only talked to them 1x in 6 years.

Why would you not want them in the child's life?
My ex-wife and I both have divorced and remarried parents.
Our kids have 4 sets of grandparents. It's great.  They all love my kids as their own.

It seems like your creating a problem that doesn't exist.
Unless I missed something about them being terrible people?

It may not be specifically mentioned in the law but I bet marriage and adoption would have certainly helped present you two as a stable and healthy family.

I'm confused by the part in red, were you previously married to the mother already? If so, I assume you had the marriage annulled or got divorced?

Which is awesome on your part, but you have no right to that child atleast you shouldn't, unless you raised them and that the part I understand about this law, but it's to broad and overbearing.

All feelings aside MOM & DAD (Paternal) get to decide who their child sees.  It shouldn't even be a question.  Emotionally charged feelings have raided and destroyed the rights of parents in this situation.  Imagine again for us as the parents (I get that I have no legal standing yet, in due time grasshoppers), we want to have more children, but fear the stress and confusion it will put on her, when she is forced to go to "visitation" while the others do not.  Being forced to spend time with people her parents share nothing with and should not have to.  This man made it clear he does not want anything to do with us, simply her.  He stated it in counseling, which again he walked out of and then was dismissed by court.  He has cost us thousands of dollars and forced us to put our lives on hold because his relationship with his son failed and now he wants to make up for it.  That is wrong.  Even if it wasn't about him feeling guilty, he should have no rights to this visitation as it is not his child!



Divorce was pending when she found out she was pregnant.  So yes married for over two years at that point.  Fresh out of college, high school sweet hearts, mistakes were made and we were not good to eachother, we worked on our issues and moved on from our mistakes.  She is not innocent in where she got herself, but I'm not one to judge anyone for mistakes they made.  It happens, the better people move on and make the most of it.  Also the "donor" is the one who wanted out, his parents should be mad at him, and not coming after the ones who wanted to raise the child.



I have two sets of parents also.  She has just hers.  So that makes 3 sets of grandparents that we all get along with and have for years. He want's no relationship with us, he just wants her.  He again made that very clear in counseling, but court did not allow that as evidence.  Hell even in the court he made it clear it was about him, but that somehow did not matter.  He is not a terrible person, but she as a parent has the right to decide who she wants in her life.

Even worse, what if he does something to our child?  What if he blames her for what his child did and we dont know that.  I know for a fact he drinks heavily and smokes, but no record, no care.  Parents know and get to decide who is fit for their child, it's not the governments job to tell them who they think is ok.  That is my biggest problem.  If we had a relationship and felt he was a great guy, yes we might make amends, but that is not the case.  Shamefully mom can't make that decision though, because they court made it for her.

Not to divulge too much of my own story with custody and visitation and getting hosed by custodial parents and court system, I mean my remarks as having seen what my parents, particulalry my mother, has gone through because we're estranged from my son's Mother. That's all. The story hit's home for me is all.

 No, you are wrong.  YOU have no right to the child, you are no one, a stranger.  The grandparents do have a right by blood.

We talk about family values yet here we have some random guy telling the blood relatives of a child that he doesn't want them to know each other.  

Sometimes the grandparents don't care, but in this situation that is clearly not the case.  


 That is incorrect.  As you can see, there is more to the law than that.

 That's a lame excuse.  It really makes no sense.  What if the mother wanted the child to go see her grandparents?  Would you not allow it because the other children aren't going?



 I wouldn't want anything to do with you either.  It seems like you are mad about that, which is pretty petty.

 No, YOU cost yourselves that time and money by fighting this in court instead of just letting a grandparent see his blood relative.

This.

You want to be treated like a father and husband?

Then sack up and step to the plate ...

Look, OP, hate to say it, but you are being a selfish jerk.

The courts want what is best for the child, not what you and your girlfriend think is best for your relationship.

I didn't wade through your whole first post, but cherry-picking from other replies, you don't have any tie by marriage or blood or adoption to the child.  So, let's say that three years from now, you and your girlfriend get into an argument, and you ditch the bitch, and you run around chanting "no child support, not my child, no relation!"  What then?  Do you think the child would not want to have some stable relationship based on blood?

The grandparents clearly want to be involved in the child's life.  And they should be.  Even if they didn't like the mom -- and given her behavior, it sounds like they might have reason to think she's a rotten person, if she's trying to keep them out of their grandchild's life too.

And I respect and understand that in some situations it sucks and destroys families, but the parents are the ones who are responsible for their children and to take them from them is wrong.  I mean we are ordered to drop her off in two weeks and just let her go in with this guy she has met 5 times in her life.  A guy we really don't know, for many reasons...  

The law was made to prevent situations similar to what I assume you might be going through, but he was not part of her life, and the mom should not be forced to allow him in.  Again it sucks because it's an incredibly emotionally charged situation, but if we act only on emotions, we all know where this country is headed.  I simply strongly feel that a mothers rights outweigh anything a court should be able to rule on, especially in our case.  We never asked anything of him, nor did she use him for years of custody only to demand it back.  The court was wrong, and the law is wrong for allowing emotions to win over rights.  

No disrespect towards your situation because they are all different.

IANAL, but if they are saying the grandparents have rights, how would her giving up rights automatically terminate their rights?

File a restraining order?



Move?



Both?

OP, you keep referring to yourself as a parent and I am sure that you are, in the eyes of the child. However, you have to realize that, in the eyes of the court, you are just some guy who used to be married to the mother.

OP I remember your earlier thread as well... The thing is that your bitching about it will accomplish absolutely NOTHING. You can refuse to comply since this is a civil matter, and if the court wants to press some type of criminal charge then you have to be brought before a criminal court to answer for said charge and maybe try t leverage your point of view from there. The other option is to move to a state where this BS is not recognized and ignore the order. I seriously doubt they will pursue extradition over this.  

  While I know these are not the answers your looking for there is no magic pill to fix this situation and YOU need to decide if the SO is worth the hassle or if this will just be a repeat of first time around with her. The only third option I can think of is to take it all the way to the SC or SCOTUS which will cost incredible amounts of money. Your lawyer is only allowed to tell you what you may do within the bounds of the current law and how the law applies to your situation. You will be the one to decide how far you are willing to go to test the boundries of that law.

How long from the time the GP files a complaint for non-compliance does it takes for that complaint to actually make it on the court's docket ?? Bring up everything you can to thwart that process such as extensions delays etc. to try to drag it out. Once in court use any piece of even the tiniest shred of any possible evidence to make the GP look bad, you said he walked out of counseling ordered by the court ?? That should be heard, if not your lawyer should file for a change of venue or ask the commissioner to excuse himself due to a clear bias and prejudice that is being shown against you. In the end it would be better and cheaper for you to just move and leave no forwarding address, but if you're determined to stand and fight then the above is about the only advice I can give you..

On what grounds?

I don't know about your state but in most states there has to be a reason for the courts to issue an Order of Protection and, even if it was issued, they are unlikely to impact any custody agreement unless the child is also named in the order.

 








































 

You are looking at it from an emotional standpoint.  Grandparents might be 1/4 of that kid, but they have no rights, as long as mom is kicking. Sorry.  I mean chances are I share some prehistoric DNA with people posting here.  Do I have rights to their kids?  

You assume too much, without understanding the situation, which I understand with this being the internet and all.  But no matter how you want to believe, GRANDPARENTS are not the parents (legally, blood, etc, neither am I), but MOM is and she should get to decide.  Life sucks sometimes and I'm well aware of that, but again this law is overbearing and wrong.  No matter what your emotions tell you and how much you love your grand children.  They are not your children.  You are not their guardian.  You should have no say in their lives.  End of story.  





I do everyday.  Trust me forgiving her for some of the shit she did has not been easy, but we forgave and forgot to give this child the most love we could.  That is our choice and one that for some reason people here seem to have a hard time seeing as ok.  I could marry her tomorrow and it would change nothing, I could adopt the child, but currently it changes nothing.  I would support her as long as I had time with her even if we fell apart.  It's too easy to make assumptions about me and the situation without fully knowing everything and I understand that.  If you knew us, you would understand, but it's the internet and I understand you can only get so much info across.



I'd happily come show that judge my clean record, the house I own and happily opened up for them, the person I am, the support I give to her, etc...

I learned from the last time I tried this, far too many people make crazy assumptions based off of this without knowing us.  Understood, it's the internet and I try to let it go, but I know who I am and if I have time I'll refute them.



None of you know me, but I guarantee you I am a better person than you can comprehend from what I type on here.  I don't believe in much but honesty and respect are right at the top.  

I have posted this, simply to vent and to spread information about what I feel is a backassward law.  Some may not agree, but I guarantee you if you were a parent in our shoes, you would.

I don't think anyone is trying to say you are not a good guy OP, but people are saying that a court has to act on the information before it.  And no court, ever, can travel back in time and spend a decade getting to know a person so as to judge them "a good guy."  From what is presented here, the court saw the child's biological grandparents wanting to be part of the child's life, and saw the mother and her boyfriend try to exclude them, and arrived at a decision the court felt was in the best interests of the child.

That's your opinion, you are entitled to it.  Just like you are entitled to have the opinion that the Earth is flat.  In both cases, you are wrong.  What you say goes against common sense.  

I thought this was a conservative place?  Family is important, some live-in boyfriend is not.

A good person would not be trying to stop people from seeing their grandchild.  

You haven't given one good reason, not one.

If you were to bring up abuse or anything like that, it would be different.  But all you have brought up is selfishness.  So please don't tell us how good of a person you are.

This. I remember the last thread as well. OP has no rights including the right to bitch. He wont take ANY responsibility. Grandparents have way more rights than OP ever should.

I don't like the idea of a court forcing parents to allow visitation.  It should be the parents choice.  My great grandma was a total bitch.  After I was born she told my mom she should get sterilized.  Just an example of her shit.  The priest at her funeral even made mention of how awful she was.  Long story short she was always trying to visit us, and my grandma was helping her against my parents wishes.

The only good visit I had with her was when grandma lied to my mom and snuck us to see the bitch at a nursing home.  Her mind was gone, and I knew she would die soon, and was happy.

Not everyone has good grandparents.  The state shouldn't interfer to please some senior votes, at the cost of the kids.

But that signed piece of paper changes everything and the relationship will be ruined! Why do you want him to do that?

There just has to be huge details missing here.
I can't wrap my mind around why you all wouldn't want another loving, caring set of folks around the child.






Ahhh, I see now.

 

Common sense?  No matter what you want to think, grandparents have no rights.  This would not be a problem if he was alive and wanted nothing to do with them.  They only have visitation option because he killed himself.  That is screwed up.

Clearly agree to disagree...

Conservative? You mean two people living together to raise a child with their families.  Not killing myself because I'm unhappy that a woman doesn't love me and my parents think I' a total fuckup.  

Live-in boyfriend - We've been together 12 years.  Minus the one.  Also my house ;) Would it change anything if we were married, I bet not for you.  And mom want's nothing to do with them, as they want nothing to do with her.  They only want the kid.  

I know my side of this is purely emotion based, because legally I have not one foot to stand on so I can't say I legally feel this way or that.  But when I watch the person I love suffer because she is going to have to hand her child over to a man she does not know or trust, you bet your ass I'm going to care.  

Sorry, I have no sympathy. You're not the biological anything! You can adopt so the choice is now up to you; step up, step out, or shut up.