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Posted: 9/20/2004 6:29:49 PM EST
Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does?

Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:30:50 PM EST
I dont really care what the answer to that question is, either way we're all fucked.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:31:58 PM EST
People choose their own life's path with help and signs on how to do it from God.

A combo of both really. Fate, yay or nay is the question.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:34:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
I dont really care what the answer to that question is, either way we're all fucked.


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:40:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
I dont really care what the answer to that question is, either way we're all fucked.



Can you come and give a speech at my sister's high school?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:44:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
I dont really care what the answer to that question is, either way we're all fucked.



Can you come and give a speech at my sister's high school?



Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:52:22 PM EST
Good question.

I will answer to the best of my ability.


Ever man, woman, and childd has free will. It is what makes us differant then the animals. We have the ability to judge, create, think, and thus cotrol our environment. Not other animal on this planet is able to do this.


Some people will also refer to this as "Original Sin" but that's for a differant topic.


So basically it is we that determine our own destiny. Now keep in mind that thru prayer and meditation one can align his will with the will of God.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:52:51 PM EST
Free will. I am a secularist. I am not even a secular humanist, because they believe people are inherently good.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:52:59 PM EST
There is no god.

Shit happens.

<­BR>

Especially if you party naked!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:54:29 PM EST
GOD has a master plan with emphasis on its conclusion and intervenes to keep it on course in the grand scheme. We're designed to choose the path to HIM or away from HIM. Good or evil. I guess HE kind of threw us into life to ultimately deal with ourselves. That's my simplified view.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:54:46 PM EST
Why does it happen?

Because it happens. Roll the bones.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:55:09 PM EST
I think it could go either way. But it falls to whether you believe in god (or gods) or not. That can go either way too
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:56:12 PM EST
There is no FREE WILL in the pure sense, people make choices but those choices are influenced by a subtle inperceptable force called spirit.

Free will denies the sovereignty of God.

God takes responsibility for everything.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:59:00 PM EST
There is God's will, and then there is your free will.

All you have to do is make sure yours matches His. It's not that difficult, really....
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:03:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
There is no FREE WILL in the pure sense, people make choices but those choices are influenced by a subtle inperceptable force called spirit.

Free will denies the sovereignty of God.

God takes responsibility for everything.



I thought that the normal Christian lin was that God gave us free will?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:03:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
I dont really care what the answer to that question is, either way we're all fucked.



Can you come and give a speech at my sister's high school?



Only if there is free beer.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:13:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 7:18:34 PM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:05:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:07:05 PM EST by STRATIOTES]
DT
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:06:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I thought that the normal Christian lin was that God gave us free will?



No that is the common misconception but not the truth, God knows the end from the beginning the alpha and the omega, a sparrow doesn't fall without his notice, the hairs on your head are numbered and known by Him.

People try to make God small like a human so they can comprehend Him rather than woship Him as the Creator of the universe beyond the capability of simple text language to communicate such glory.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:07:48 PM EST
"Ever man, woman, and childd has free will. It is what makes us differant then the animals."

And my cats and dogs are what robots?


"We have the ability to judge, create, think, and thus cotrol our environment."

While I doubt animals "judge" the way people do, they certainly think, create and do a lot to control their environment also.
They were here billions of years before people were, people just build more elaborate structures, and can do more to control environments. But to say animals don't do any of that, I don't agree.
They day people can make themselves immortal is the day they're really different from animals.

While God might have a master plan, I don't think everything that happens is a result of His doing.


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:19:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By barkley-addict:


While God might have a master plan, I don't think everything that happens is a result of His doing.




2Thes.2

1. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Scripture doesnt liken man to robots, God likens them to clay, simple mud.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:24:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does?

Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?



WTF would God pre-ordain ppl. to be rapists and child molestors? That makes absolutely no sense...and if it was true...well, that isn't a God I want to believe in. Oh, the answer is free will in case that wasn't clear.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:27:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
There is no FREE WILL in the pure sense, people make choices but those choices are influenced by a subtle inperceptable force called spirit.

Free will denies the sovereignty of God.

God takes responsibility for everything.



The problem with this view is this:

If there is no Free Will, then we truely do not have choices. If we do not have choices, then we can not sin.

If we can not sin, then we are sinless. If we are sinless, then all of the evil things in the world are actually good.

See, there MUST be Free Will...

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:30:10 PM EST
Man is born with a sin nature and is bound by sin. Yet God offers man freedom from his chains. Man can either turn to God and be set free, or say no to God and remain a servant to sin.

God is not a Calvinist, and men are not puppets on a string. Men do have the freedom to choose. Men are responsible for their actions.

God's plan will come to pass on his timetable. Man cannot thwart his plan.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:32:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:33:02 PM EST by slash-5]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I thought that the normal Christian lin was that God gave us free will?



No that is the common misconception but not the truth, God knows the end from the beginning the alpha and the omega, a sparrow doesn't fall without his notice, the hairs on your head are numbered and known by Him.

People try to make God small like a human so they can comprehend Him rather than woship Him as the Creator of the universe beyond the capability of simple text language to communicate such glory.



You, sir are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE with FORE-CONTROL. If God controls all of our every actions, then God is a murderer.

The Bible refutes this point: "Let no man say when he is tempted that he is tempted of God..."
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:32:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:
The problem with this view is this:

If there is no Free Will, then we truely do not have choices. If we do not have choices, then we can not sin.

If we can not sin, then we are sinless. If we are sinless, then all of the evil things in the world are actually good.

See, there MUST be Free Will...






" The problem is a very practical one. Let us suppose that we have learned that God is carrying out His will, and that nothing man can do is able to defeat Him. The question then arises, What is the use of doing anything? Why pray when everything has been prearranged? The answer is very simple. God has prepared good works that we should walk in them. It is His will to exercise our hearts as to His ways and to engage our affections through the veil of uncertainty and ignorance which lies upon us. He would not have us know the details of His operations lest we repose on them instead of throwing ourselves unreservedly on Himself and confidently confiding in His love" Adolph E Knoch


The pahantom of free-will
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:35:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:


You, sir are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE with FORE-CONTROL. If God controls all of our every actions, then God is a murderer.

"

Not at all, the definition of murder is the spilling of innocent blood, God is just is destroying the wicked, which He will also make alive again in due season.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:37:34 PM EST
Please answer my question: How can there be sin, if there is no free will?

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:38:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:39:23 PM EST by slash-5]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By slash-5:


You, sir are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE with FORE-CONTROL. If God controls all of our every actions, then God is a murderer.

"

Not at all, the definition of murder is the spilling of innocent blood, God is just is destroying the wicked, which He will also make alive again in due season.



Are you Muslim?

This sounds much like the rhetoric spouted by those that behead American non-combatants.

Why then, shouldn't any of us kill anyone we please?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:43:45 PM EST


Matthew 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.





minus the Y


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:47:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:
Please answer my question: How can there be sin, if there is no free will?


The trouble here I believe is in the definition of what free means, simply the word free means without influence, since every choice you make is influenced it is not free.

There is no way to answer the free-will question with seven words or less and why just one essay is linked.

If you reduce the question to the eleven words above you just used the only answer that is as short is that there is no sin at that level.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:54:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By slash-5:
Please answer my question: How can there be sin, if there is no free will?


The trouble here I believe is in the definition of what free means, simply the word free means without influence, since every choice you make is influenced it is not free.

There is no way to answer the free-will question with seven words or less and why just one essay is linked.

If you reduce the question to the eleven words above you just used the only answer that is as short is that there is no sin at that level.



Free does not mean "without influence", Free (in this case) means that 1) there are legitimate, individual choices and 2) that the individual can indeed make a choice.

Let's do a little experiment here, shall we? Close your eyes right now.

There--you just made a choice. Since you made a choice (whether or not you actually closed your eyes is irrelevant), you must have Free Will.

Personally, I think we as Christians tend to make these things more complicated than they actually are. The Bible says that we sin. Sin MUST involve a choice. Therefore there MUST be Free Will.

It really is that simple.

Quit thinking so hard, you are going to strain something!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:57:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
There is no FREE WILL in the pure sense, people make choices but those choices are influenced by a subtle inperceptable force called spirit.

Free will denies the sovereignty of God.

God takes responsibility for everything.



No. Even Jesus Christ had to take responsibility for his own actions ("not my will but thine"). Each and every man may choose his own way in life. God loves us too much to force us to make a decision. He may have foreknowledge of our choices, but he does not control them! God cannot take responsibility for our sins unless we allow him to.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:02:25 PM EST
Think of it this way:

1) If there is no Free Will, then we can not sin. If we can not sin, then we do not need a Savior.

This doctrine of MAN has made a Savior irrelevant!

2) If there is no Free Will, then God has SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN who goes to Heaven. The logic follows from this that God created some of Mankind, with no possibility of going to Heaven.

Therefore, you worship a God who created a certain portion of the population specifically in order to send them to Hell, and endure eternal torment!

Sounds to me like you have created God in your own image, and made a Savior irrelevant.

Since I know you haven't actually intentionally done this, please think carefully about the logical conclusion of some of the doctrine you espouse. Remember, this thought process was invented by Calvin, and it certainly wasn't something that was believed by the First Century Church.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:03:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:
God cannot take responsibility for our sins unless we allow him to.


You claim to be superior to God then.

God can and does force us to do many things, thank God.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:05:30 PM EST
When dealing with pre-destination, it is wise to keep this in mind:

God preordained the Bride of Christ. The Bride is the Church. Individual membership within this group is self-determined, and voluntary.

If you read all of those "tough" passages (Romans 9, 11?) with this in mind, it all becomes clear.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:09:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 9:09:54 PM EST by slash-5]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By fizassist:
God cannot take responsibility for our sins unless we allow him to.


You claim to be superior to God then.

God can and does force us to do many things, thank God.



I can believe that you would choose to worship a God that forces people to sin.

What kind of crazy doctrine is that? If you can't see the problems with this thought process, I truly do feel sorry for you.

I am beginning to think that this might be one of those "pearls before swine" situations.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:10:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:

Therefore, you worship a God who created a certain portion of the population specifically in order to send them to Hell, and endure eternal torment!
.


off topic but the eternal torment doctrine is a dogma of demons.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:12:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:
Think of it this way:

1) If there is no Free Will, then we can not sin. If we can not sin, then we do not need a Savior.

This doctrine of MAN has made a Savior irrelevant!

2) If there is no Free Will, then God has SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN who goes to Heaven. The logic follows from this that God created some of Mankind, with no possibility of going to Heaven.

Therefore, you worship a God who created a certain portion of the population specifically in order to send them to Hell, and endure eternal torment!

Sounds to me like you have created God in your own image, and made a Savior irrelevant.

Since I know you haven't actually intentionally done this, please think carefully about the logical conclusion of some of the doctrine you espouse. Remember, this thought process was invented by Calvin, and it certainly wasn't something that was believed by the First Century Church.



Actually, it was not invented by Calvin. Calvin got it from Augustine, and Augustine got it from Manichaeanism. Calvin took the man-made religion and its beliefs and went to the Bible to try and prove them. He uses some verses here and there, taking them out of their context, to try and support the false doctrines.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:15:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 9:16:14 PM EST by slash-5]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By slash-5:

Therefore, you worship a God who created a certain portion of the population specifically in order to send them to Hell, and endure eternal torment!
.


off topic but the eternal torment doctrine is a dogma of demons.


You poor, poor fool.



I am done here. Clearly, you are brainwashed beyond help, and I think my logic will stand for those that have the ability to examine it from an objective viewpoint.

(PS, according to your logic, God is making me believe this. Therefore I must be right!)
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:20:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By slash-5:
(PS, according to your logic, God is making me believe this. Therefore I must be right!)



Just in case you missed it the first time.

2Thes.2

1. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:43:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By slash-5:


You, sir are confusing FOREKNOWLEDGE with FORE-CONTROL. If God controls all of our every actions, then God is a murderer.

"

Not at all, the definition of murder is the spilling of innocent blood, God is just is destroying the wicked, which He will also make alive again in due season.



So you're saying, all those people killed at the WTC on 9/11, all our people who have died in in the middle east, are wicked and being destroyed by God???
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:23:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
So you're saying, all those people killed at the WTC on 9/11, all our people who have died in in the middle east, are wicked and being destroyed by God???



Check the Old testament, yes God caused that tower to fall on those people, yes He creates vesels of wrath fitted unto destruction and yes He sends sufferings upon the saints and yes He is more than justified in doing so.


Rom.9 -22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --



God is great, why try to make Him a limited human with mortal logic?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:37:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 8:04:19 PM EST by fizassist]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
So you're saying, all those people killed at the WTC on 9/11, all our people who have died in in the middle east, are wicked and being destroyed by God???



Check the Old testament, yes God caused that tower to fall on those people, yes He creates vesels of wrath fitted unto destruction and yes He sends sufferings upon the saints and yes He is more than justified in doing so.



Ok, I guess you've made it clear who you really worship. You might have noticed the conspicuous absence of the Devil in the OT, and the figure of speech where "caused" is substituted for "allowed". Let's review quickly:


1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Not just "no darkness", but "no darkness at all". Really.


Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


If you're worshiping the god (the god of this world) who bombed the world trade center, I suggest you rethink your allegiances, 'cause it ain't the big guy upstairs.

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:51:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
So you're saying, all those people killed at the WTC on 9/11, all our people who have died in in the middle east, are wicked and being destroyed by God???



Check the Old testament, yes God caused that tower to fall on those people, yes He creates vesels of wrath fitted unto destruction and yes He sends sufferings upon the saints and yes He is more than justified in doing so.


Rom.9 -22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --



God is great, why try to make Him a limited human with mortal logic?




Ignore this fool.


Man and Satan brings evil...not God.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:01:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:
If you're worshiping the god (the god of this world) who bombed the world trade center, I suggest you either rethink your allegiances, 'cause it ain't the big guy upstairs.

Luke 13- 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?



"Isiah 45-5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me;
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:02:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Ignore this fool.


Man and Satan brings evil...not God.


SGtar15


And just what did Christ say bout calling your brother fool? read Isiah 45-7 again.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:05:19 PM EST
"Scripture doesnt liken man to robots, God likens them to clay, simple mud."

Well if every single action were God's will then we'd basically be nothing but robots is all I was suggesting, and I don't think that is the case.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:08:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
"Isiah 45-5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me;
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Please reread my post. The bit about the Devil not being mentioned much in the OT. The other bit about figures of speech where God "creating" evil means God "allowing" evil because of our free will (and Lucifer's). He created all (including Lucifer). The fact that Lucifer became evil was a function of his free will, not of God's will.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:09:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Ignore this fool.


Man and Satan brings evil...not God.


SGtar15


And just what did Christ say bout calling your brother fool? read Isiah 45-7 again.




Christ never met you.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:11:38 PM EST
"Man and Satan brings evil...not God."

And God brought forth man and Satan, so what's the difference?

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