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Posted: 7/21/2008 5:47:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 5:55:14 AM EDT by vito113]
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:14:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related


You realize thats an al jezera (sp) documentary.. not saying its incorrect but definately leans one direction.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:35:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By delemorte:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related


You realize thats an al jezera (sp) documentary.. not saying its incorrect but definately leans one direction.


Yup,

Another subtle propaganda piece from Aljazeera; not exactly "fair and balanced".
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:36:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 6:38:00 AM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By delemorte:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related


You realize thats an al jezera (sp) documentary.. not saying its incorrect but definately leans one direction.



Uses a number of israeli sources…
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:44:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By delemorte:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related


You realize thats an al jezera (sp) documentary.. not saying its incorrect but definately leans one direction.



Uses a number of israeli sources…



AJ could find american sources to dog on the abrams... Does it make it true?


If you had the developers or high ranking officers involved in the actual war it would give it more credibility.

Did some gorillas use some borrowed weapons to take out a couple of tanks? Sure but did it stop the IDF from taking over the southern part of lebanon? nope.... and im sorry but i would like to see the test with those missles against modern composite armor like on an abrams.. I think you could easily take out the treads but will it really penatrate the armor it self?

Has their been any fatalities in IRAQ in a modern tank due to direct enemy AT fire?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:47:10 AM EDT
Wow, another 'gem' from Arfcom's most overrated poster.

It's a piece of fucking propaganda from Aljazeera, incredibly reliable.

good job Vito



let me see if I can dig up a news piece on British naval force done by some Iranian news organization, I'm sure the two will sound very much the same.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 7:04:47 AM EDT

How many tanks did the israelis lose in 2006? The "documentary" makes it seem as if they lost hundreds of them.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 7:13:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pwr2al4:
Wow, another 'gem' from Arfcom's most overrated poster.

It's a piece of fucking propaganda from Aljazeera, incredibly reliable.

good job Vito



let me see if I can dig up a news piece on British naval force done by some Iranian news organization, I'm sure the two will sound very much the same.


Yeah, because your posts are so much better.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 10:32:53 AM EDT by America-first]


Those videos were actually far less "informative" regarding the Merkava Tank than they were about the supposed declining military prowess and capabilities of the IDF; which was the subtle but constant message that predominated throughout the narrative.

"God's Chariot" comes up lacking in the face of the mighty Islamic war machine.

The last scene was blatant propaganda: the old man in a wheelchair rolls past a Merkava Tank......fadeout.

All that was missing from this transparant Aljaeera propaganda piece were Rage Boy and that old Palestinan women who showed the press unfired rounds that she claimed were bullets fired at her house.

Just another cleverly veiled, anti Israeli, propaganda piece brought to you by ARFcom's voice of Aljazeera.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:38:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By T56:

Originally Posted By pwr2al4:
Wow, another 'gem' from Arfcom's most overrated poster.

It's a piece of fucking propaganda from Aljazeera, incredibly reliable.

good job Vito



let me see if I can dig up a news piece on British naval force done by some Iranian news organization, I'm sure the two will sound very much the same.


Yeah, because your posts are so much better.


+1
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:43:35 AM EDT
Only Andy would post a documentary about an israeli tank made by al jazeera.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:46:54 AM EDT
Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.

I look forward to their multi-part series on Christ.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:48:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Only Andy would post a documentary about an israeli tank made by al jazeera.



But he doesn't have an agenda....
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:49:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 10:49:21 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Enough Russian AT-14 Kornet anti-tank missiles and the Merkava will carry many to God.

5sub
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:51:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By America-first:

Originally Posted By delemorte:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Interesting doc on the Merkava and it's development…

Part 1...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM


Part 2...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E&feature=related


You realize thats an al jezera (sp) documentary.. not saying its incorrect but definately leans one direction.


Yup,

Another subtle propaganda piece from Aljazeera; not exactly "fair and balanced".


Well damn, you'd only expect that from Fox News, huh?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:57:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Only Andy would post a documentary about an israeli tank made by al jazeera.



But he doesn't have an agenda....


Nah.......he was intrigued with the mother lode of highly informative, technical information contained in that Aljazeera opus and wanted to share it here.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:58:51 AM EDT
50 tanks were hit, 22 had their armor penetrated and all but 4 were returned to service.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:59:13 AM EDT
Seemed balanced and factual to me. What in specific was incorrect?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:00:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.



Al J shows a terribly distorted view of the US and Israel to the Muslim world while the US and Israeli media show a terribly distorted view of the Muslim world to its viewers.

There is little news.......mostly views.

5sub
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:02:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.

I look forward to their multi-part series on Christ.



Well as they are a news channel, I'm sure when the second coming is reported they will cover it as they have offices in Israel.


You do know that Israels two largest cable TV companies carry Al Jazeera in favour of CNN and BBC News?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:02:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
50 tanks were hit, 22 had their armor penetrated and all but 4 were returned to service.


Still I believe Israel decided to cease production of the Merkava.

5sub
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:06:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By America-first:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Only Andy would post a documentary about an israeli tank made by al jazeera.



But he doesn't have an agenda....


Nah.......he was intrigued with the mother lode of highly informative, technical information contained in that Aljazeera opus and wanted to share it here.


Attack the source, attack the poster.... attack anything..... right America-last ??

5sub
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:07:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
50 tanks were hit, 22 had their armor penetrated and all but 4 were returned to service.


Still I believe Israel decided to cease production of the Merkava.

5sub


That was decided before the 2006 war.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:21:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.

I look forward to their multi-part series on Christ.



Well as they are a news channel, I'm sure when the second coming is reported they will cover it as they have offices in Israel.


You do know that Israels two largest cable TV companies carry Al Jazeera in favour of CNN and BBC News?


I believe that's called "know your enemy"
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:24:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By America-first:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Only Andy would post a documentary about an israeli tank made by al jazeera.



But he doesn't have an agenda....


Nah.......he was intrigued with the mother lode of highly informative, technical information contained in that Aljazeera opus and wanted to share it here.


Attack the source, attack the poster.... attack anything..... right America-last ??


5sub


Oh, sweet irony...
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:25:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.

I look forward to their multi-part series on Christ.



Well as they are a news channel, I'm sure when the second coming is reported they will cover it as they have offices in Israel.


You do know that Israels two largest cable TV companies carry Al Jazeera in favour of CNN and BBC News?


I believe that's called "know your enemy"



So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:27:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:28:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.



Al J shows a terribly distorted view of the US and Israel to the Muslim world while the US and Israeli media show a terribly distorted view of the Muslim world to its viewers.

There is little news.......mostly views.

5sub


The US media does in fact show a distorted view of the Muslim world. That's why we need blogs like LGF.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:29:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 11:30:14 AM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.



You should get yourself a subscription… It's a bit like the Arab version of Faux News… amongst the distortions their is some very insightful reporting and discussion.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:32:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Al Jazeera does turn out some fascinating work.

I look forward to their multi-part series on Christ.



Well as they are a news channel, I'm sure when the second coming is reported they will cover it as they have offices in Israel.


You do know that Israels two largest cable TV companies carry Al Jazeera in favour of CNN and BBC News?


I believe that's called "know your enemy"



I believe that's called "know your enemy"


Guess I should subscribe to the Jerusalem Post and Al J.

5sub
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:34:19 AM EDT
Ok so are there some fatal errors of the design.


I know they had a hell of a time taking a hill in 06 and that is how those two troops were taken POW.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:37:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.

It's a bit like the Arab version of Faux News… amongst the distortions their is some very insightful reporting and discussion.


So... how is it like Fox?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:39:16 AM EDT
Does it show the device they use to collect Muslim baby blood to make Passover bread?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:39:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LtDirector:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.

It's a bit like the Arab version of Faux News… amongst the distortions their is some very insightful reporting and discussion.


So... how is it like Fox?


Good ol' summertime trolls.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:39:32 AM EDT
Controversy surrounds the Merkava Mark IV's success during the battle of Wadi Saluki and other engagements during the 2006 Lebanon War. Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, hitting 50 tanks and penetrating armour in 22, 14 at the Battles of Marjayoun and Wadi Saluki, killing 23. The penetrations were caused by tandem warhead missiles supplied by the Syrian Army[citation needed], including Russian-made RPG-29 'Vampir', AT-5 Spandrel 'Konkurs', AT-13 Saxhorn-2 'Metis-M', and АТ-14 Spriggan 'Kornet' missiles. 18 of the damaged tanks were Mark IVs, eight of which remained serviceable. Two tanks were completely destroyed by powerful improvised explosive devices; one was equipped with underside armour, limiting casualties in that tank to 1 of the 7 soldiers. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the tank's performance, and linked problems to lack of proper training prior to the war.[11][12]

After the 2006 war in Lebanon, and as the IDF becomes increasingly involved in unconventional and guerrilla warfare, the Merkava's role in the Israeli military has been questioned by some analysts who argue that the Merkava is too vulnerable to missiles.[13][14] Other post-war analysts, including David Eshel, disagree, arguing that reports of losses to Merkavas were overstated and that "summing up the performance of Merkava tanks, especially the latest version Merkava Mark IV, most tank crews agree that, in spite of the losses sustained and some major flaws in tactical conduct, the tank proved its mettle in its first high-saturation combat." [15] It should be noted that an RPG-29 penetrated the frontal hull armour of a British Challenger 2 tank in Iraq - where the armor protection is much less than that of the front turret-, indicating that the Merkava performed quite well under the circumstances. All but 5 tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The IDF wants to increase orders of new Merkava Mark IV tanks, and has plans to add the TROPHY Active Protection Systems to Merkava Mark IV tanks, as well as increased joint training between crews and Israeli antitank soldiers
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:41:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By LtDirector:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.

It's a bit like the Arab version of Faux News… amongst the distortions their is some very insightful reporting and discussion.


So... how is it like Fox?


Good ol' summertime trolls.


Yes... it's trolling to believe Fox news is a flaming pile of shit. For fun, I turned it on just a minute ago and they were talking about Britney Spears is recording a new album.

Fox sucks.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:42:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
Controversy surrounds the Merkava Mark IV's success during the battle of Wadi Saluki and other engagements during the 2006 Lebanon War. Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, hitting 50 tanks and penetrating armour in 22, 14 at the Battles of Marjayoun and Wadi Saluki, killing 23. The penetrations were caused by tandem warhead missiles supplied by the Syrian Army[citation needed], including Russian-made RPG-29 'Vampir', AT-5 Spandrel 'Konkurs', AT-13 Saxhorn-2 'Metis-M', and АТ-14 Spriggan 'Kornet' missiles. 18 of the damaged tanks were Mark IVs, eight of which remained serviceable. Two tanks were completely destroyed by powerful improvised explosive devices; one was equipped with underside armour, limiting casualties in that tank to 1 of the 7 soldiers. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the tank's performance, and linked problems to lack of proper training prior to the war.[11][12]

After the 2006 war in Lebanon, and as the IDF becomes increasingly involved in unconventional and guerrilla warfare, the Merkava's role in the Israeli military has been questioned by some analysts who argue that the Merkava is too vulnerable to missiles.[13][14] Other post-war analysts, including David Eshel, disagree, arguing that reports of losses to Merkavas were overstated and that "summing up the performance of Merkava tanks, especially the latest version Merkava Mark IV, most tank crews agree that, in spite of the losses sustained and some major flaws in tactical conduct, the tank proved its mettle in its first high-saturation combat." [15] It should be noted that an RPG-29 penetrated the frontal hull armour of a British Challenger 2 tank in Iraq - where the armor protection is much less than that of the front turret-, indicating that the Merkava performed quite well under the circumstances. All but 5 tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The IDF wants to increase orders of new Merkava Mark IV tanks, and has plans to add the TROPHY Active Protection Systems to Merkava Mark IV tanks, as well as increased joint training between crews and Israeli antitank soldiers



Nope, that was a buried EFP.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:43:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LtDirector:

Originally Posted By peekay:

Originally Posted By LtDirector:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By vito113:

So I take it you have a subscription to Al Jazeera?


Actually no. But I do listen to NPR for that very reason.

It's a bit like the Arab version of Faux News… amongst the distortions their is some very insightful reporting and discussion.


So... how is it like Fox?


Good ol' summertime trolls.


Yes... it's trolling to believe Fox news is a flaming pile of shit. For fun, I turned it on just a minute ago and they were talking about Britney Spears is recording a new album.

Fox sucks.



See! Faux News does do factual and unbiased reporting!
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:43:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
50 tanks were hit, 22 had their armor penetrated and all but 4 were returned to service.


Hits from HEAT warheads are usually very easy to repair unless they set off the ammunition, just need to weld a small hole shut. However, what was the survivability rates for the crews and troops that got hit by some very advanced AT missiles?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:46:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
Controversy surrounds the Merkava Mark IV's success during the battle of Wadi Saluki and other engagements during the 2006 Lebanon War. Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, hitting 50 tanks and penetrating armour in 22, 14 at the Battles of Marjayoun and Wadi Saluki, killing 23. The penetrations were caused by tandem warhead missiles supplied by the Syrian Army[citation needed], including Russian-made RPG-29 'Vampir', AT-5 Spandrel 'Konkurs', AT-13 Saxhorn-2 'Metis-M', and АТ-14 Spriggan 'Kornet' missiles. 18 of the damaged tanks were Mark IVs, eight of which remained serviceable. Two tanks were completely destroyed by powerful improvised explosive devices; one was equipped with underside armour, limiting casualties in that tank to 1 of the 7 soldiers. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the tank's performance, and linked problems to lack of proper training prior to the war.[11][12]

After the 2006 war in Lebanon, and as the IDF becomes increasingly involved in unconventional and guerrilla warfare, the Merkava's role in the Israeli military has been questioned by some analysts who argue that the Merkava is too vulnerable to missiles.[13][14] Other post-war analysts, including David Eshel, disagree, arguing that reports of losses to Merkavas were overstated and that "summing up the performance of Merkava tanks, especially the latest version Merkava Mark IV, most tank crews agree that, in spite of the losses sustained and some major flaws in tactical conduct, the tank proved its mettle in its first high-saturation combat." [15] It should be noted that an RPG-29 penetrated the frontal hull armour of a British Challenger 2 tank in Iraq - where the armor protection is much less than that of the front turret-, indicating that the Merkava performed quite well under the circumstances. All but 5 tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The IDF wants to increase orders of new Merkava Mark IV tanks, and has plans to add the TROPHY Active Protection Systems to Merkava Mark IV tanks, as well as increased joint training between crews and Israeli antitank soldiers



Nope, that was a buried EFP.



Interesting, nasty stuff for sure.



I had a picture somewhere from Wadi Saluki where a M had its cannon ripped off by an ATM or RPG.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:49:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swede1986:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
50 tanks were hit, 22 had their armor penetrated and all but 4 were returned to service.


Still I believe Israel decided to cease production of the Merkava.

5sub


That was decided before the 2006 war.


Exactly. As the "documentary" points out, the Merkava is a 35+ year old design that was built to fight and survive warfare that is increasingly uncommon. Various life-extenstion programs have modernized the Merkava and adapted it to modern battle situations, but that doesn't change the fact that its base design is 35 years old and 1.5 generations behind modern tanks.

Remember we're talking about a tank that originated at the same time as the T-72. I don't hear anyone complaining that the T-72 is overly vulnerable to modern anti-tank missiles.

It may be time for the Merkava to go... Afterall, it's 35+ years old and has a long battlefield history against a single adaptable enemy that has demonstrated increasingly effective (adapted) anti-tank tactics. However, calling a tank with 35+ years of service and possibly the most active service life of any modern tank a failure seems rather ridiculous.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:51:49 AM EDT
What is Isreal going to replace it with, they seem hell bent on making it in house then calling GD and ordering some nice new M1A2Ms like Sauds have done.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 12:01:34 PM EDT
You guys seem to be wrapped around the technical aspects of the tank. That is not the most interesting part of this piece. The most interesting part of the piece is the TTP used by both sides and the strategic outlook.

All in all, the source of the info may not be what I want, but the message is very interesting.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 12:02:07 PM EDT

Overall, almost 90% of the tanks hit were by tandem war-heads. In general, Hezbollah militants prioritized Merkava Mk
4 over Merkava Mk 2 and 3, and in general, targeted tanks over AIFV. At the beginning of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon
conflict, the main Israeli concern was a report that Hezbollah possessed Russian Kornet antitank missiles. However, it also
saw the RPG-29 Vampir with a tandem HEAT that had stolen the show. There were even rumours that Hezbollah had
received the notorious TBG-29V thermobaric rounds, but these could not be confirmed in action.

An estimated 500 to 600 members of their roughly 4,000-strong Hezbollah fighting strength in South Lebanon were
divided into tank-killer teams of 5 or 6, each armed with 5-8 anti-tank missiles, with a further supply stored in small fortified
well camouflaged bunkers, built to withstand Israeli air attacks. In another tactic, Hezbollah tank-killer teams would lie in wait in camouflaged bunkers or houses, having planted large IEDs on known approach routes. Once an Israeli tank would detonate one of these, Hezbollah would start lobbing mortar shells onto the scene to prevent rescue teams rushing forward, also firing at outflanking Merkava tanks by targeting the more vulnerable rear zone with RPG. The IDF tried to respond with heavy artillery fire, smoke and advancing special MEDEVAC Merkava tanks, to evacuate casualties. It took some time, until the Merkava crews could change tactics and lower losses from Hezbollah tactics. This included having dismounted infantry advancing over suspected high-risk ground and take out the enemy bunkers with close-in fighting and using heavy armoured D-9 for recovery action under fire.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 12:08:09 PM EDT
IBT88's.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 12:10:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By navvet89:
IBT88's.


Yea, no kidding, right? Racists? They're everywhere, aren't they? Thanks for letting us know they'll be coming along, fellow non-racist. I feel much better knowing that you're here.
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