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Posted: 3/7/2001 5:53:11 AM EST
Am considering a 10 mm glock. Is the recoil such that it would be hard to control? I read a thread the other day about the Feds and their 10 mm and from what I heard few agents could qualify with full blown loads. The same held true with .357 s with my LE agency. We trained on wadcutters and the Dept., per legal advise, tried to qualify officers on 125 JHP Remington and fewer than 10% could qualify... Anyway I digress. How does the 10 compare with the 40? Thanks
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 5:58:23 AM EST
The 10 is a more powerful round and probably feeds better than the 40. I have 3 40`s. No problem feeding, ammo is cheaper and easier to find. Unless you reload, the 40 is probably a better choice, it is a respected caliber and I took a pitbull out with one bullet, it was the top of the head, but it was mighty close and he was closing fast.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 6:02:27 AM EST
I really like my G23. I've fired the G29 quite a bit and the recoil wasnt real bad. I would probably go with the 40s&w unless you plan to hunt, in which case the G20 would be a nice toy to have. I agree with Rich314. The 40 seems to fit the bill nicely.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 6:28:51 AM EST
The 10 is no problem for an experienced shooter, which unfortunately most cops are not. My 1076 with full-power Silvertips is actually pretty pleasant to shoot. However, I'll agree with Benchrest- unless you are going to hunt, the .40 will do anything you need. It will also fit your hand better unless you have really big mitts, and be much easier to conceal.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 6:30:50 AM EST
Thanks much, I plan to use this for defense/duty work. I must admit, I have a "Tim-the Toolman" mentality....more POWER..I am curious as to what the pit-bull looked like...heh heh heh
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:21:34 AM EST
Get a Glock 21 change the barrel to .40 SUPER, it is a necked down .45 to .40 and the hottest round made is the most powerful auto pistol round available now with almost 1,000 pounds of muzzle energy, and recoils less the the 10mm according to the designer TRITON CARTRIDGE! You'll have a .45 when you want then a .40 cal when you want, not bad at all!
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:42:39 AM EST
I'd read some objective reviews of the '40 Super' before I thought about buying a barrel for my 21. Some of those rounds, like the 400 Cor-bon, have feeding problems. And 1000 foot-lbs of energy will almost assuredly lead to over-penetration problems in humans. 'More power' is not necessarily a good thing.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:58:11 AM EST
Are you going to be using it for a duty weapon? I can't advise you there. I can point out the following: Your selection of 10mm weapons is very limited, as is the ammo. You can't walk into the local Wally-World and buy 5 different makes / 12 different factory loads of 10mm ammo. The .40 legion is growing everyday. I have friends who have Glocks in 10mm, they are a great shooting gun. The problems with the 10mm were the size (smaller stature shooters had a hard tome holding onto the gun) and when the FBI slapped their band-aid fix (make the round weaker) it only furthered the end of the 10mm. Of course I could be wrong. GEF [url]http://www.glockworld.com/GlockFaq.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:24:19 AM EST
Dude, i'll just say this. I believe that the 10MM is the greatest development in ammo technology since the self-contained cartridge. I am looking to trade my pristine 2nd Generation G-17 for another Glock 20, if that is any idea. As far as recoil, The 10MM is definitley a high-stepper, but my 13 year old nephew can handle it (HE LOVES IT) so unless you are a complete limp-wristed queer, you won't have any problem with it. The only thing that the .40 Dorks have to say is "Woooooooooooooooo--- I can get ammo anywhere, whereas you have to go to a gun store" Well, yeah. They are right. Thier sissified round is more popular than mine. But then again, Al Gore was more popular than Geroge Bush. What is more popular isn't always what's better. The 10MM will be around forever. You may have to order it from SGN, or take the trip to your local gun shop to get it, but it is here to stay. It is just too damn good a round. The .40 assholes believe that just because the .40 is gaining in popularity, that somehow diminishes those of us who enjoy the 10. W__R__O__N__G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:11:55 AM EST
Speaking for the limp wristed queers, are you looking to buy a good powerful firearm or are you just someone who is trying to make up for inadequate penis size by sporting the largest gun around (such as McUzi). If you are the latter you might consider a 50 cal Desert Eagle.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:20:53 AM EST
What really puzzles me is that I have seen many times that first someone will put down the 10mm because of "uncontrollable recoil", then goes on to suggest using .45 super! That immediately tells me they never even fired a 10mm. Another concern is that 10mm wears guns out too fast, this may be true in .45acp guns converted to the caliber but not so with the Glock 20. It was designed for 10mm and to withstand at least 35,000 full power rounds. These are the Norma loads of 170gr bullets at 1300fps and 200gr bullets at 1200fps, not the watered down 40s&w +P equivalents that are being sold as 10mm now days. The .40 super is an answer in search of a question or most just another attempt to try to cash in on the bottlenecked handgun cartridge craze. If you really want to high velocities in a 10mm, handloads with 135gr bullets can get to 1700fps.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 10:13:11 AM EST
10mm is a great round. I just wish there were more places selling ammo for it at reasonable prices. If you're not into reloading, stick with the 40.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 10:54:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By jhencrt: I am curious as to what the pit-bull looked like...heh heh heh
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The dog was a menace to the children in my neighborhood, the owner was trash and the dog was not secured well, the dog would be out and all the kids would have to in the house until the owner of the dog would try to catch his untrained dog. The owner and I didnt get along and I told him to keep his dog locked up. He said he`d try but I should feel free to call the pound on his dog. Chihuhah maybe, pitbull, nope. The dog was out one day and I went out in the front yard and stared the dog down until he charged at me, in my yard. Out came a usp 40 w/ Rem. Golden Sabre`s, and I got a snap shot off at about 8 feet away, It went in the top of his head, just to the left and tore the jaw away. The front legs did the splits and the back legs kept pumpimg for about 30 seconds. Dog didnt move at all after his legs stopped. The owner ran out and was gen-u-wine-ly pissed off, he started towards me, and I warned him to stay off my property. He noticed the very real damage done to the muscle dog and wisely went inside to call the cops. Cops came, took the gun for a couple weeks and gave it back. No ticket, no jail. No more dog, either.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:09:51 AM EST
My buddy had a Glock 40S&W and he had problems resizing spent cases shot out of a Glock. The re-loaded rounds wouldn't chamber because when he sized the Glock fired brass, a lot of the brass would flow to the head, and there would be just enough of it to prevent chambering.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:33:29 AM EST
you can still shoot 40 sw in a glock 20/29 ya know :P
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:43:26 AM EST
All hail the 10mm cartridge. At 100 yds has more energy than a .45 at the muzzle. I've been shooting a Mod 20 for almost 10 years. Only problem is ammo availability. For this cartridge, being a reloader is helpful.You just can't beat the ballistics in an auto cartridge.Soon there will be a CCU(Carbine Conversion Unit)by Mechtech available for it.Even better!
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:54:46 AM EST
contenderfool; that would be impossible and dangerous since the cartridge headspaces on the front lip of the casing.I am a certified gunsmith and no offense intended. Misinformation just bothers me.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 12:35:36 PM EST
>you can still shoot 40 sw in a glock 20/29 ya know :P < This is a really bad idea (I hope you were joking). It may work, but the .40 & 10mm most certainly headspace off of the case mouth. I don't know if it's dangerous (kB!), but I'm sure it will lead to reduced reliability. I have a 23 . . . great gun for it's design (self defense). Never had a single failure, which is something most Glock owners are used to. The 10mm is designed for hunting mostly . . . and the gripframe is huge. Unless you wear size XL gloves, you will not be able to get a good shooting lock on it. I LOVE the Glock .45, but it's just too darn big for me to hold properly (correct Weaver grip). Plus, the 10mm with full power rounds will overpenetrate on humans. You could use the FedLites, but then again, you might as well buy a 22 or 23 and get a smaller more compact gun. On the other hand, I will buy a 10mm Glock on day . . . but I won't carry it for personal defense. By the way, my 23 is named Janet Jackson . . . she's small, black, got lots of plastic, thick through the middle, and is plain to look at but would get the job done ! [:D]
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 12:48:39 PM EST
Barsto makes .40s&w G20 barrels.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 12:50:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Getsome: Speaking for the limp wristed queers, are you looking to buy a good powerful firearm or are you just someone who is trying to make up for inadequate penis size by sporting the largest gun around (such as McUzi). If you are the latter you might consider a 50 cal Desert Eagle.
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LMAO! Good one.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 12:53:33 PM EST
Oh yeah. BTW- The Glock 20 10MM. 15 cartridges of a round that hits about the median range of a .41 Magnum. Can anyone beat that? Nope. Glock 20 wins ALWAYS AGAINST ANY OTHER HANDGUN FOR ANY USE (Except target shooting, and squirel hunting)
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 12:59:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By McUZI: Oh yeah. Glock 20 wins ALWAYS AGAINST ANY OTHER HANDGUN FOR ANY USE (Except target shooting, and squirel hunting)
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Pretty big McStatement. Too bad it`s wrong. I havent seen a pistol yet I could say that about. Tools for the job. Ever hear of a S/V Infinity? Les Baer? Wilson?
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:01:39 PM EST
Rich) Yes. S/V's are getting there, because they are available as a double stack. Never shot a Baer, but have plugged away once with a Wilson. Damn fine gun. BUT__ If you ever run across a Wilson, Baer, or Strayer/Voght(S?) that offers more than 15 rounds of .41 Magnum muzzle energy, let me know. Otherwise, the orig. statement stands as true.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:08:57 PM EST
RE:....complete limp-wristed queer.... .40 dorks ....thier sissified round.... .40 assholes.... What is your problem mcuzi? Jhencrt is asking for advice. Can't you make a case for the 10mm without calling people names. I know 60 people that shoot IDPA and 3GUN with a .40 and I will be showing them your post. I will encourage them to chip in and pay your entry fee, travel expenses, room and board so you can bring your 10mm down and give us some empirical evidence.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:14:00 PM EST
Interesting post...I'm trying to switch over to another LE agency and there dept issue is the Glock 20!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:18:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2001 1:33:07 PM EST by __McUZI]
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: RE:....complete limp-wristed queer.... .40 dorks ....thier sissified round.... .40 assholes.... What is your problem mcuzi? Jhencrt is asking for advice. Can't you make a case for the 10mm without calling people names. I know 60 people that shoot IDPA and 3GUN with a .40 and I will be showing them your post. I will encourage them to chip in and pay your entry fee, travel expenses, room and board so you can bring your 10mm down and give us some empirical evidence.
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If you can't see the flaw in your logic, i'll be glad to show it to you. IDPA ISN'T REAL!!!! Although is is more authentic than IPSC, IT IS STILL JUST A F*CKING GUN GAME! If you think that a steel popper really cares if it is shot with a .40 or a 10MM, then you are a fool. The 10MM difference comes into play in the real world, when that extra billion FPE smacks into your target. (EDITED BECAUSE I DIDDN'T MEAN THE THINGS I SAID TO HANGFIRE) BTW- PLEASE DO pay my way. I got my L2 quals here in Florida, and shoot at least 2, usually 3 days a week. I'm sure I could do the 10MM a big favor amongst the .40 groupies.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:22:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2001 1:36:35 PM EST by aircraftmech]
Congratulations on your decision to buy a Glock! I spent several years of research selecting a gun and caliber before purchasing my Glock 27. Not only do I have one of the most concealable combat pistols around, I also have the most reliable brand on the planet, and, I believe, the best possible caliber for self-defense. The thing that finally convinced me was an article by gunwriter Ed Sanow. He compared all major calibers and rated them with a system he helped develop called the Fuller Index. This system takes actual FBI statistics from street shootings and combines them with standardized ballistic testing to form a composite score. This score is intended to represent, by percentage of incidents, the likelihood of a one-shot-stop. Not only did he test individual calibers, but multiple loads and brands within those calibers. Interestingly enough, as I recall, the top two slots were held by .40 rounds. The top slot at 98% was a Cor-bon JHP(I don't recall the weight), and the second was Federal's 135gr Hydrashock at a 97% one-shot-stop rate. The .45 was close behind at 96%. Needless to say, I am happy with my decision. Not only am I confident in my choice in terms of reliability, but I have the added comfort of an extremely ergonomic gun which readily accepts the two pre-ban 15 round Glock 22 mags I have since purchased! If 40 rounds of .40 S&W 135gr Hydrashock don't get me out of trouble, send in the Marines!!!!
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:43:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By ballsybottom: >you can still shoot 40 sw in a glock 20/29 ya know :P < This is a really bad idea (I hope you were joking). It may work, but the .40 & 10mm most certainly headspace off of the case mouth. I don't know if it's dangerous (kB!)
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yeah it might not be the most reliable thing to do but it works when 10mm ammo is unavailable
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:56:41 PM EST
Just FYI, the full-power 10mm will not necessarily over-penetrate on humans. Use a 135 or 150-grain Cor-bon load, and the chances of it happening are less than with many .45 loads. The bullet will most likely expand and then fragment, dumping all of its energy into a human torso. Even the 175-grain Silvertip only penetrates about 13" of gelatin, which is less than some 9mm loads, but it's got lots more energy. Stay away from the earlier Norma stuff, it frequently failed to expand and then did over-penetrate. It was also too hot, which is where a lot of the reputation for beating guns to death came from. Unless you are shooting competitively (in which case 10 is a poor choice), you probably won't kill a quality pistol like a Smith or a Glock. Bottom line, either 40 or 10mm will do the job. If you like 45 ACP-frame guns, go with the 10. If 9mm-frame guns fit your hand better, go with the 40. They're very similar in performance, the 10 seems to be more versatile simply because you can load it hotter. Just my .02
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:02:16 PM EST
BTW, don't ever shoot 40's in a 10mm unless you throw a 40 barrel in the gun. Most of the time the 40 round will headspace on the extractor and everything will be fine. However, if the round slips out from the extractor and drops down into the chamber, and your firing pin is long enough to still fire the primer, that's a bad thing. When that round fires, the pressure will slam that 40 casing back against your slide face at way high velocity. This creates a huge amount of heat, which will cause your primer to flow. The firing pin will most likely pierce the primer, allowing gas to vent backwards. Bad juju. If you want to shoot 40's in a 10, call Irv Stone at Bar-Sto and have him send you a 40 barrel for it. Cheaper than a prosthetic hand.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:30:26 PM EST
The G20 is great if you live on the urban rural interface, because it will kill dangerous wildlife. I mean real dangerous, bears or mountain lions. FYI, according to a California Glock instructor I used to know, the Glock 20 was the best selling Glock model in Alaska! (of course this was back in 96'). With the hicaps it was equaly adept at disposing of two or four legged preditors. Then again Alaskans like strange guns, it was the only state where the M57 Smiths Sold well, and the Alaska State Police were just about the only LE agency to ever let their officers carry the Smith .41's on duty. I beleve the state police there now issue G21 .45's, but they may let the officers carry their privately owned G20's. The guys on Glock Talk would know all about this, why dont you go ask them?
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 2:34:28 AM EST
The owner and I didnt get along and I told him to keep his dog locked up. He said he`d try but I should feel free to call the pound on his dog. Chihuhah maybe, pitbull, nope. The dog was out one day and I went out in the front yard and stared the dog down until he charged at me, in my yard. Out came a usp 40 w/ Rem. Golden Sabre`s, and I got a snap shot off at about 8 feet away, It went in the top of his head, just to the left and tore the jaw away. The front legs did the splits and the back legs kept pumpimg for about 30 seconds. Dog didnt move at all after his legs stopped. The owner ran out and was gen-u-wine-ly pissed off, he started towards me, and I warned him to stay off my property. He noticed the very real damage done to the muscle dog and wisely went inside to call the cops. Cops came, took the gun for a couple weeks and gave it back. No ticket, no jail. No more dog, either.
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Did you make the kids watch? Just curious, how did you explain to them not to call the police or the pound and take justice into your own hands? The reason I ask, this may be the crux of why all the kids go to school and "settle the score"
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 3:00:48 AM EST
Ok, Being a fan of the 41 magnum, I had to verify a statement made earlier. I checked 5 reloading manuals and the average velocity difference between the the 10mm and the 41 Mag, in all bullet weights, is 300fps. No way a 10mm auto is gonna keep pace with a 41 mag. Here's a quote from Frank Barnes 'Cartridges of the World', which has been the cartridge bible for years. 'Acutal 10mm factory loads do not significantly exceed 45 Automatic +P rounds.' It's a good cartridge, but it's still a pistol round. And that's also why I chose the 45 in +P, which is widely available. To each their own.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 4:20:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By McUZI: IDPA ISN'T REAL!!!! Although is is more authentic than IPSC, IT IS STILL JUST A F*CKING GUN GAME! If you think that a steel popper really cares if it is shot with a .40 or a 10MM, then you are a fool. . . I'm sure I could do the 10MM a big favor amongst the .40 groupies.
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Of course it`s a game, silly rabbit. and it also happens to be some of the best way to develop motor skills. It also shows you your limitations, both physical and equipment. Too bad your on the other side, otherwise I`d pay your way too. I would love to see someone shoot a idpa/uspsa with a big bounceing 10mm. The S/V`s and STI and Para`s would eat your Glock and leave the leftovers in the Tupperware box it came in. Pepper Poppers dont know the difference and neither would McYou.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 4:29:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By GTZ: Did you make the kids watch? Just curious, how did you explain to them not to call the police or the pound and take justice into your own hands? The reason I ask, this may be the crux of why all the kids go to school and "settle the score"
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Tree Hugger, Maybe? No, I didnt make my kids watch. The Police couldnt have made it there in time. Yes I am teaching them to rely on their selves and not a cop.(New World Order). The crux of kids going to school and killing kids is not my fault , wiper of other peoples bottoms. I`m not even going to explain this as I`ll just get mad that there are people who think this way.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 5:23:14 AM EST
I presently own a pre-ban 23 and now a 27 and had thought about the "compact 10mm"...the 29. Gun show is coming up. I must agree with Rich314, sometimes "sh*t happens" before police can arrive. As for kids, they need to be taught BY PARENTS and I believe teaching a healty and safe respect for firearms. I believe it is necessary...cause this ISN'T the safe world it used to be. As for the the dog..in the olds days (20 years ago) when conducting search warrants at bad characters house we didn't have dog pound at our disposal...Bad dogs were taken out by 12 guage pointman. End of problem...gave the perps incentive to give up and go quietly too!
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 1:06:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rich314: Tree Hugger, Maybe?
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No, I have killed dogs in self defense. I had to be there to understand I guess. I know here in VA a guy did exactly what you did. Than the neighbor came over and killed him. He was found innocent. It just sounds like you escalated that whole situation into something it did not need to be. By using a firearm to do that you could have brought more bad press upon all of us. I tend to look at from a "what could the press with it" point of view. I am sure the dog needed to go and I am glad nothing came of it for you. A lot of people would have been convicted of some bull for what you did. I was just wondering how you could turn that into a self defense lesson.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 1:26:40 PM EST
jhencrt, another thread gotten out of hand! if you think you want the 10, go for it. once you go 10, you never go back! seriously, here are some items to consider; the 40 cal IS an excellent round. however, it is in reality a compromise between wimpy 9`s, and overpowered (for some) 10`s.let`s face it, they all are killers, but you are looking for the ultimate choice of power and efficiency in autoloading handgun ammo, and the 10 is it! NOT withstanding the EXOTIC stuff (50ae and the like) as far as beating up the gun,45+ beats it up just as good. believe me, i have both, and even though i truly love 45`s, if i had to choose one for protection and all around use, the delta elite is the one i`d keep. there are subsonic factory rounds available, for practice and target.the closest thing to the 10, is 357sig. the 10 is however, more versatile.goodluck......k.k.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 1:54:37 PM EST
Gentlemen, Having Carried both a G17, and then a G22 AS a duty weapon for a few years, and during that same time fired a G20 (LOVED it!), let me add my observations: 1) I like the G22 because it fits all my G17 stuff...anybody who doesn't have a box full of holsters that are only used occasionally isn't serious about concealed carry...you know who you are. 2) I found the 10 to be controllable and accurate as hell. I am concerned about overpenetration, and statistics I have read reinforce this concern. As one of the "Good Guys," I HAVE to be concerned about hitting innocents when my firearm discharges. 3) 10mm Ammo is expensive, and last time I checked, you cannot use reloads for duty for liability reasons...so, if you want to practice with your duty load...well, you do the math...unless of course it's department-provided. 4) The 10 is a more versatile cartridge for hunting, and I've seen the figures; It's got ballistics roughly equivalent to the .41 mag...which is pretty darn hot. In conclusion, I love the 10 idea, but I do and will continue to carry the .40 for serious business, due to liability concerns, ammunition availability, and the most important practical concern: I am not made of money to buy a bunch more holsters to fit the larger-framed G20. Keep in mind that if you wear a firearm for DUTY, the likelihood of you having to use it is higher than if you were simply a citizen exercising concealed carry. This means court. It behooves you to examine the political and legal climate in your area of operation and factor it in as a significant determinor in your ultimate choice of caliber. And that's all I have to say about that. Panz "Gun Control is Murder By Proxy. Just ask any Disarmed Murder Victim."
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 2:30:05 PM EST
panz, if you wear a firearm for "duty" 40 is pretty much the only choice. not literally, but all things considred, it`s the best choice!
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