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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/14/2005 11:49:29 AM EDT
A few thoughts about the left, the President, the planet Earth, and the idiotic statements I have heard in the past few weeks...

Lets talk about the globe, ours that is, Earth.
It's getting warmer, so I'm told.
Guess what.......this isnt the first time.

Before there were Republicans, before there was a country called America, and going back way before mammals, the whole Earth (or at least a grand portion of the land mass) was ablaze with wild fire. Global firestorms...the whole place...real damn hot....and not one factory emitting chemicals into the ozone to be blamed.

Temperature, both on the surface and in the oceans (brace yourself, the oceans werent always there, but lets move on) has fluctuated since the origin of this planet. If scientific data can be trusted, it is generally accepted that temperatures have fluctuated by great margins...from sub zero temps to scorching triple digit temps...back and forth...ebbing and flowing...throughout known time.

Remember those ice age things we learned about in school?
The ice isnt hear any longer...is it?
Where did it go?
Just at the poles and up in the mountains last I checked.
Hmmm....where did it go?
IT GOT WARM AND IT MELTED.....MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO!!!
Was that Bush's fault as well?

Right now, recorded data suggests that mean temps are rising. Thats a fact.
This will result in continued melting of polar ice caps, which will lead to increased ocean height, and ultimately, the inundation of low lying coastal land. Thats a fact as well.
I am also told that the increased temps will have affects on weather patterns.
Im no meteorolgist, but I am thinking that heat + more water = increased humidity which leads to higher barometric pressures in the humid regions....and as that pressure moves, it meets other fronts and things like hurricanes happen.

Rather than look for some human to blame for all of this, lets try to look past our egos for a moment and consider that in a million years or so, the lower lattitudes may very well be covered in ice all over again...mountains will crumble, tectonic plates will shift, new mountains will form, the continents will move, break apart, and form new shapes.....and you want to know why?

Because history & the collective data we have suggests that this is what the planet does.

Bush has been in office for 5 years.
Is any educated person suggesting that one man, in 5 years, has offset the ecological balance of a planet that spent over 4,000,000,000 years regulating itself?

So, to review, and wrap this up in a neat little package to drop on the next idiot you hear blaming Bush for severe weather, lets recap.....

There was a time, a long, long time ago, when the planet was covered in a 1 mile thick layer of ice.
In fact, its happened more than once.

Then, for no reason that humans can be attributed (because we didnt exist yet) the Earth got really warm, and all the ice melted.

The face of the globe changed...the continents shifted, the landscape was manipulated, the oceans rose up and forever inundated lands that once stood above sea level.

It's a cycle, and its occurred for billions of years...its happening now...and it will continue well beyond the scope of human existance for billions of years to come.

One last thing...

People cant change the planet, try as they might.
Anyone that seriously thinks they are 'helping' the Earth with their ridiculous recycling efforts, organic farming, use of alternative fuels, and all their greenpeace contributions...try to get over yourselves. You cant make a difference, not a lasting one at least. Humans have existed for approximately 0.0000001% of the time that the planet has...our effects will not even register in the ledger of time.

(rant mode OFF)
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 11:59:41 AM EDT
that almost makes too much sense but if you show that to a left winger they'd tell you that your stupid and can't prove it and bush is the devil sooo its all his fault.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:05:47 PM EDT
Thank you for puting into words what I have believed for a long time. Goes right into that factoid the tree huggers use about 1000 species going extinct every day, or something like that, as if it is somehow our fault. How arrogant is it to believe that everything that happens happens because of us? Not a real religious guy, but I'll bet that a certain deity is somewhat annoyed at that presumption. Probably just laughing His ass off.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:23:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By treemydawg:
that almost makes too much sense but if you show that to a left winger they'd tell you that your stupid and can't prove it and bush is the devil sooo its all his fault.




Lefties fancy themselves as intellectuals.
They like to tell you what they think.
Well, Im not different.....I just happen to think different things.

If they can explain where the ice went and demonstrate how a conservative is responsible I will gladly listen. If however, they cannot prove with logic, facts, and math how humans (specifically the Republican leaders) have altered billions of years of geological evolution, then maybe they should just STFU and listen to reason for a change.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:21:29 AM EDT
Bump for the morning crew
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:38:52 AM EDT
Golbal warming dosn't exist. So it can't be anyones fault. Average tempatures have been rising bacuase large population centers have been increasing. And places like Venice have been increasing their enegry output by a considerable ammount. Looking at a few graphs McGill, NV wnt from an average 48 in 1930 to 47 in 1995 that's a drop and Guthrie , OK wnt from 60.5 to 60 form 1930 to 2000. Places like Shanghi, New York, Venice, and Boston have all increased several degrees, because of human enegry output, not because of CO2 in the atmosphere. Thats been there fore a while, we increased it by 60 millionths or from 3.2 * 10^-5 to 3.8 * 10^-5, thats not a lot.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:49:22 AM EDT
I can never help but hear this routine by George Carlin everytime this bullshit comes up.

Puts it all in perspective for me


We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the fucking planet?

I'm getting tired of that shit. Tired of that shit. I'm tired of fucking Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a shit about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

We're going away. Pack your shit, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...asshole.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:
A few thoughts about the...blah, blah, blah...



Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 3:05:34 AM EDT
If global warming were real, we'd be growing oranges in Georgia. Fact is, you can't grow oranges in Florida anymore. The town of Frost Proof isn't frost proof. It's all part of a normal cycle, the Anasazi indians out west used to live in a lush oasis. It's desert now. They didn't have cars, Freon, and cattle feed lots and there weren't billions of them either. The earth changes, be damn thankful that you have cars & moving vans so that you can change with it.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:26:18 AM EDT
While "Global Warming" as a sky-is-falling fad isn't proven scientifically, we (the human race) can and do seriously fuck up our environment.

I certainly don't drink the demorat koolaid WRT the environment, but the other party's opinion lately seems to be "lets do whatever the fuck we want to the planet and nothing can ever go wrong".

I'm not happy with either response.

We've got the nice little ball o greenery in the universe. Can't we just try and take care of it, and try to minimize the impact we have on it? Seems like the best way to keep it nice and neat for the longest time possible.


Link Posted: 9/15/2005 3:44:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



Feel free to share some of yours, apparently you know something I don't.
I'm not claiming to be a geologist, and my comments shouldnt be taken as an attempt to teach anything...I am simply attempting to point out that human existence will in time prove irrelevant from the perspective of the planet. We won't be here forever....not even for a long time...and after we are gone, all indications that we existed will eventually dissapear as well. When that day comes, I can imagine it will be mighty difficult to assess what impact our species had on Earth.

My guess...human impact will not be measurable.

Care to explain whatever it is that you think I am missing?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 3:56:59 PM EDT
It's pretty clear the climate of the earth is becoming warmer. I can see the differences in my statefrom when I was a little kid and now, 25 years later.

But the climate changes all the time. A few hundred years ago, Europe had a "mini ice age" with a lot more rainfall and smaller harvests that lasted several decades. Then of course, there was the REAL ice age and subsequent thaw-out. Humans weren't responsible for that thaw, why are people so quick to assume we're to blame to rising temperatures today? And what makes them think that limiting greenhouse gas production will reverse or stop the trend? Do they have any proof? If not, how can you justify the immense econom cost of circumscribing human industry to reduce greenhouse gas emissions without guaranteeing it will make a demonstrable difference?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:06:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



Feel free to share some of yours, apparently you know something I don't.
I'm not claiming to be a geologist, and my comments shouldnt be taken as an attempt to teach anything...I am simply attempting to point out that human existence will in time prove irrelevant from the perspective of the planet. We won't be here forever....not even for a long time...and after we are gone, all indications that we existed will eventually dissapear as well. When that day comes, I can imagine it will be mighty difficult to assess what impact our species had on Earth.

My guess...human impact will not be measurable.

Care to explain whatever it is that you think I am missing?



Macro, you must understand that to him, it is ALL Bush's fault.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 10:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



Feel free to share some of yours, apparently you know something I don't.
I'm not claiming to be a geologist, and my comments shouldnt be taken as an attempt to teach anything...I am simply attempting to point out that human existence will in time prove irrelevant from the perspective of the planet. We won't be here forever....not even for a long time...and after we are gone, all indications that we existed will eventually dissapear as well. When that day comes, I can imagine it will be mighty difficult to assess what impact our species had on Earth.

My guess...human impact will not be measurable.

Care to explain whatever it is that you think I am missing?



Macro, you must understand that to him, it is ALL Bush's fault.



No, not really. It's all YOUR fault.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 10:33:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By macro:
A few thoughts about the...blah, blah, blah...



Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



The only big error I could find in his rant is that the last ice age wasn't a million years ago, it was a few tens of thousands of years ago. It happens (naturally, not because of humans) much quicker than millions of years. There were humans alive during the last ice age. I guess it was their camp fires that melted all that ice, right?

Please feel free to share some of YOUR knowledge. I'd love to hear it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 11:03:31 AM EDT
I think you really have to ask yourself this, are you against Global warming becuase a preponderance of the evidence or because you tow the Conservative line??
Do you think for yourself or are you a sheeple who does what the majority of people with "R"'s next to their name say you should??
Politics should never interfere in Scientific endeavors.
For example you'd think according to Bush that there is a scientific debate going on about Evolution. There is a debate going on but it's NOT a scientific one. On one side are the scientists (the ones qualified to do the research) on the other are religious fanatics and psuedo-scientific cranks. Now back to Greenhouse gasses.
The vast majority of Scientists belive based on the evidence that the greenhouse gasses are warming up the globe. On the other side are industrial companies that do not want to have to reduce their emmissions (which will cost them money), And ideologes who support their position, and also people who feel they "identify" with the right so they feel they have to support the rights stand on global warming even though they themselves have no real knowledge of the situation!! Is this all Bush's fault that Green house gasses are warming the planet? no, duuuuh! But what has he done to try and stop that process? And will the right ever conceed that something must be done or even that there is a problem?
Past Weather cycles have been recorded but the causes of these cycles are known to have had nothing to do with something that can be prevented. One is the Eccenticitys of the earth's orbit. Another is a cataclysmic event such as a huge Volcanic eruption. (see Kraka-toa volcano event) or the K-T extinction. But most temprature changes happen very slowly over at least many centuries not over decades!
Here the basic science behind it- Take two glass houses exposed to the sun. One is filled with normal air from say circa 1750 AD. Then Into the other one put iin extra Carbon dioxide and methane. Then take temprature measurements, The one filled with more "green house gasses" will always be hotter. This is basic science. Now understand that each year millions of tons of CO2 and methane are being pumped into the air. After 100 years this will add up! Second thiing people have to grasp iis what is known as the "carbon cycle". Prior to humans burniing fossiil fuels the amount of CO2 remaiined static because it was absorbed by nature (plants) then released in a perpetual cycle. But once we added Excess from Carbon locked deep within the earth (oil) Nature was unable to absorb it. The reason for that is that there are "limiting factors" Such as Iron, Nitrogen etc. that diisallow Plants to absorb the extra CO2 to grow bigger. So the CO2 meanders around the atmosphere absorbing the sun energy are re-releasing it in the form of heat. And the fact is even a slight 1 degree increase in the MEAN temprature of the whole globe can have bad consequences. (oh and yes my damn "I" key on the keyboard iis broken,see what ii mean?? )
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 11:14:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I think you really have to ask yourself this, are you against Global warming becuase a preponderance of the evidence or because you tow the Conservative line??
Do you think for yourself or are you a sheeple who does what the majority of people with "R"'s next to their name say you should??
Politics should never interfere in Scientific endeavors.
For example you'd think according to Bush that there is a scientific debate going on about Evolution. There is a debate going on but it's NOT a scientific one. On one side are the scientists (the ones qualified to do the research) on the other are religious fanatics and psuedo-scientific cranks. Now back to Greenhouse gasses.
The vast majority of Scientists belive based on the evidence that the greenhouse gasses are warming up the globe. On the other side are industrial companies that do not want to have to reduce their emmissions (which will cost them money), And ideologes who support their position, and also people who feel they "identify" with the right so they feel they have to support the rights stand on global warming even though they themselves have no real knowledge of the situation!! Is this all Bush's fault that Green house gasses are warming the planet? no, duuuuh! But what has he done to try and stop that process? And will the right ever conceed that something must be done or even that there is a problem?
Past Weather cycles have been recorded but the causes of these cycles are known to have had nothing to do with something that can be prevented. One is the Eccenticitys of the earth's orbit. Another is a cataclysmic event such as a huge Volcanic eruption. (see Kraka-toa volcano event) or the K-T extinction. But most temprature changes happen very slowly over at least many centuries not over decades!
Here the basic science behind it- Take two glass houses exposed to the sun. One is filled with normal air from say circa 1750 AD. Then Into the other one put iin extra Carbon dioxide and methane. Then take temprature measurements, The one filled with more "green house gasses" will always be hotter. This is basic science. Now understand that each year millions of tons of CO2 and methane are being pumped into the air. After 100 years this will add up! Second thiing people have to grasp iis what is known as the "carbon cycle". Prior to humans burniing fossiil fuels the amount of CO2 remaiined static because it was absorbed by nature (plants) then released in a perpetual cycle. But once we added Excess from Carbon locked deep within the earth (oil) Nature was unable to absorb it. The reason for that is that there are "limiting factors" Such as Iron, Nitrogen etc. that diisallow Plants to absorb the extra CO2 to grow bigger. So the CO2 meanders around the atmosphere absorbing the sun energy are re-releasing it in the form of heat. And the fact is even a slight 1 degree increase in the MEAN temprature of the whole globe can have bad consequences. (oh and yes my damn "I" key on the keyboard iis broken,see what ii mean?? )



Scientists that believe humans are causing global climatic change almost always are working under grants, and if they come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong their career in climatology ends. Thus, they invariably insist that "further study is necessary". I'm more of a "follow the money" kind of guy myself.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 11:18:40 AM EDT
t-stox,

Your theory sounds nice and neat until you realize that the earth has been and will again be much warmer then it is now.

Also, if the earth shifts on its axis again like it has in the past (many times) we are screwed. And it doesn't have anything to do with humans.

The earths climate is changing and has changed since it began. Remember the ice age a few millenia ago? Where I live was under hundreds of feet of water. And it was much colder... Those damn wooly mammoths...

And that cooling thing really sucked for the dinos. They could of used a little global warming.

Whoever comes up with the biggest calamity gets the biggest research grants
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 11:34:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I think you really have to ask yourself this, are you against Global warming becuase a preponderance of the evidence or because you tow the Conservative line??
Do you think for yourself or are you a sheeple who does what the majority of people with "R"'s next to their name say you should??
Politics should never interfere in Scientific endeavors.
For example you'd think according to Bush that there is a scientific debate going on about Evolution. There is a debate going on but it's NOT a scientific one. On one side are the scientists (the ones qualified to do the research) on the other are religious fanatics and psuedo-scientific cranks. Now back to Greenhouse gasses.
The vast majority of Scientists belive based on the evidence that the greenhouse gasses are warming up the globe. On the other side are industrial companies that do not want to have to reduce their emmissions (which will cost them money), And ideologes who support their position, and also people who feel they "identify" with the right so they feel they have to support the rights stand on global warming even though they themselves have no real knowledge of the situation!! Is this all Bush's fault that Green house gasses are warming the planet? no, duuuuh! But what has he done to try and stop that process? And will the right ever conceed that something must be done or even that there is a problem?
Past Weather cycles have been recorded but the causes of these cycles are known to have had nothing to do with something that can be prevented. One is the Eccenticitys of the earth's orbit. Another is a cataclysmic event such as a huge Volcanic eruption. (see Kraka-toa volcano event) or the K-T extinction. But most temprature changes happen very slowly over at least many centuries not over decades!
Here the basic science behind it- Take two glass houses exposed to the sun. One is filled with normal air from say circa 1750 AD. Then Into the other one put iin extra Carbon dioxide and methane. Then take temprature measurements, The one filled with more "green house gasses" will always be hotter. This is basic science. Now understand that each year millions of tons of CO2 and methane are being pumped into the air. After 100 years this will add up! Second thiing people have to grasp iis what is known as the "carbon cycle". Prior to humans burniing fossiil fuels the amount of CO2 remaiined static because it was absorbed by nature (plants) then released in a perpetual cycle. But once we added Excess from Carbon locked deep within the earth (oil) Nature was unable to absorb it. The reason for that is that there are "limiting factors" Such as Iron, Nitrogen etc. that diisallow Plants to absorb the extra CO2 to grow bigger. So the CO2 meanders around the atmosphere absorbing the sun energy are re-releasing it in the form of heat. And the fact is even a slight 1 degree increase in the MEAN temprature of the whole globe can have bad consequences. (oh and yes my damn "I" key on the keyboard iis broken,see what ii mean?? )



Scientists that believe humans are causing global climatic change almost always are working under grants, and if they come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong their career in climatology ends. Thus, they invariably insist that "further study is necessary". I'm more of a "follow the money" kind of guy myself.




I agree with gus on this 100%.

I think a ton of "research" just amounts to job justification.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 11:52:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 11:58:47 AM EDT by t-stox]

Scientists that believe humans are causing global climatic change almost always are working under grants, and if they come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong their career in climatology ends. Thus, they invariably insist that "further study is necessary". I'm more of a "follow the money" kind of guy myself.


Science really does'nt work that way because inevitably people won't throw good money after bad. When global warminig does not appear self evident the grants go to other people anyway. But One merely needs to scour newspapers to find REAL evidence of Global warming. Also scientists need to keep a good reputation, enough of them will come foward and claim that Global warming is a hoax , and the "cranks" will become discredited and be unable to get grants. And not all scientists work on a grant basis they work for an institute and get a salary reguardless of their findings. Also don't forget that the "follow the money" scheme works both ways! The people who bolster the "there is no green house effect" line feel they will lose money if the GOvt passes regs so they also have a motive to lie.


Your theory sounds nice and neat until you realize that the earth has been and will again be much warmer then it is now.

Also, if the earth shifts on its axis again like it has in the past (many times) we are screwed. And it doesn't have anything to do with humans.

The earths climate is changing and has changed since it began. Remember the ice age a few millenia ago? Where I live was under hundreds of feet of water. And it was much colder... Those damn wooly mammoths...


Umm, yes i do realise the past had different climates! GUUH! Read my post again, if this warming is "natural" then truely we are screwed but thats not my point. My point is IF it is mans fault (which seems to be the case) we can and MUST reverse it. Also Most change happened over a long period which gave us a chance to adapt. Quick changes will not and could force us back to a hunter gatherer exsistance! There are only a few things that can cause the globe to warm up and even less things can cause it to heat up this fast. Most of these have been eliminated as a possable reason. (such as orbital eccentricity) And most of the Scientists from the whole world (not just the US) can only point to excess Gasses in the Atmosphere as the cause. Also look at it logically, there are many countries that are signiing the "Kyoto accords" based on their scientists advice. This means that they also will have to suffer economically due to the new Regs. Why would they do this to themselves? Why would they hamstring themselves based on a wacky theory? Unless this theory is Not wacky but very real.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:03:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:

Scientists that believe humans are causing global climatic change almost always are working under grants, and if they come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong their career in climatology ends. Thus, they invariably insist that "further study is necessary". I'm more of a "follow the money" kind of guy myself.



Science really does'nt work that way because inevitably people won't throw good money after bad.



You're saying that the US govt doesn't throw out good money after bad?? What world are you living in??
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:10:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:45:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
Well, what you say is certainly true. It is scientific and there is most assuredly repeatable scientific evidence to support these facts. However good democrats must immediately dismiss these facts out of hand. It is the only way that we can convince the masses that it really is all Bush's fault.



It isn't science, it's consensus, there's a vast difference:

Aliens Cause Global Warming
A lecture by Michael Crichton
Caltech Michelin Lecture
January 17, 2003

I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:51:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By macro:
A few thoughts about the...blah, blah, blah...



Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



The only big error I could find in his rant is that the last ice age wasn't a million years ago, it was a few tens of thousands of years ago. It happens (naturally, not because of humans) much quicker than millions of years. There were humans alive during the last ice age. I guess it was their camp fires that melted all that ice, right?

Please feel free to share some of YOUR knowledge. I'd love to hear it.



Google is your friend. Look it up ! I did.
Results 1 - 10 of about 41,900,000 for Global warming [definition]. (0.07 seconds)
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:55:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:58:36 PM EDT
I said this before in this thread, but I will say it again. Global Warming does not exist this has been proven. How exactly? Scientist have looked at graphs from all over the world telling the average tempature of places on the globe. What did they find? Some places got warmer, some places got colder, some statyed the same. New York City went from 54.1 degrees F in 1930 to 55.1 degrees F in 1998. Albany, NY wnt from 48.2 degrees F in 1930 to 47.2 degrees F in 1998 and west point went from 51 degrees in 1826 to 51 degrees in 1996. Those three locations are very close and they show three different wather changes. I gave one example to counter global warming from CO2 emissions. That was emprical data. For those who don't know how much CO2 in the atmosphere has increased it wnt from 0.00000320 to 0.00000380 not alot.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:01:54 PM EDT
I post this everytime I see this subject. Some of you need to read it:

www.scotese.com/climate.htm

Shows the average mean temperature during certain periods. Right now it is very cool, where as in the past it has been as high as a 22C average temperature.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:02:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:

Scientists that believe humans are causing global climatic change almost always are working under grants, and if they come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong their career in climatology ends. Thus, they invariably insist that "further study is necessary". I'm more of a "follow the money" kind of guy myself.


Science really does'nt work that way because inevitably people won't throw good money after bad. When global warminig does not appear self evident the grants go to other people anyway. But One merely needs to scour newspapers to find REAL evidence of Global warming. Also scientists need to keep a good reputation, enough of them will come foward and claim that Global warming is a hoax , and the "cranks" will become discredited and be unable to get grants. And not all scientists work on a grant basis they work for an institute and get a salary reguardless of their findings. Also don't forget that the "follow the money" scheme works both ways! The people who bolster the "there is no green house effect" line feel they will lose money if the GOvt passes regs so they also have a motive to lie.


Your theory sounds nice and neat until you realize that the earth has been and will again be much warmer then it is now.

Also, if the earth shifts on its axis again like it has in the past (many times) we are screwed. And it doesn't have anything to do with humans.

The earths climate is changing and has changed since it began. Remember the ice age a few millenia ago? Where I live was under hundreds of feet of water. And it was much colder... Those damn wooly mammoths...


Umm, yes i do realise the past had different climates! GUUH! Read my post again, if this warming is "natural" then truely we are screwed but thats not my point. My point is IF it is mans fault (which seems to be the case) we can and MUST reverse it. Also Most change happened over a long period which gave us a chance to adapt. Quick changes will not and could force us back to a hunter gatherer exsistance! There are only a few things that can cause the globe to warm up and even less things can cause it to heat up this fast. Most of these have been eliminated as a possable reason. (such as orbital eccentricity) And most of the Scientists from the whole world (not just the US) can only point to excess Gasses in the Atmosphere as the cause. Also look at it logically, there are many countries that are signiing the "Kyoto accords" based on their scientists advice. This means that they also will have to suffer economically due to the new Regs. Why would they do this to themselves? Why would they hamstring themselves based on a wacky theory? Unless this theory is Not wacky but very real.



Please take a science class. What you wrote is mindless drivel.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:04:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 2:08:53 PM EDT by Guth]

Originally Posted By shotar:
You are saying that the earth has not gone through periods of climatic change both warmer and cooler? I should think there is more than sufficient evidence that this has been the case. Then again, we still have people running around who think the whole planet is only 6k years old so I suppose there are those who will believe anything.



I'm saying that the proponents of global-warming use "consensus" more than science. I don't dispute that there has been, and probably always will be, climate fluctuation. I do dispute what the environmentalists claim is the cause -my car.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:17:30 PM EDT
And one day the sun will go super nova and thaaaat's all folks! What has happened is political ideology has insinuated it's way into everything. I don't believe that we will ever again have a rational discussion without ideology raising it's ugly head. It's a damn shame that eveything has to be couched in political nonsense. For which the great god Marx and his buddy Engels are partly to blame. And the fools that believe that drivel. Look at what the Katrina disaster has become. A political football and another way to divide Americans.
Sometimes I wonder if we are really worthy to live on such a beautiful planet. Maybe we should live on Mercury where we really would have something to worry about.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By macro:

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Nice rant but come back when you actually have some knowledge about the subject.



Feel free to share some of yours, apparently you know something I don't.
I'm not claiming to be a geologist, and my comments shouldnt be taken as an attempt to teach anything...I am simply attempting to point out that human existence will in time prove irrelevant from the perspective of the planet. We won't be here forever....not even for a long time...and after we are gone, all indications that we existed will eventually dissapear as well. When that day comes, I can imagine it will be mighty difficult to assess what impact our species had on Earth.

My guess...human impact will not be measurable.

Care to explain whatever it is that you think I am missing?



Macro, you must understand that to him, it is ALL Bush's fault.



No, not really. It's all YOUR fault.



I WISH I had that much power. Some people would be very unhappy about it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 3:18:47 PM EDT by SNorman]

Originally Posted By t-stox:
The vast majority of Scientists belive based on the evidence that the greenhouse gasses are warming up the globe.



Wrong.


On the other side are industrial companies that do not want to have to reduce their emmissions (which will cost them money),



Wrong.



Take two glass houses exposed to the sun. One is filled with normal air from say circa 1750 AD. Then Into the other one put iin extra Carbon dioxide and methane. Then take temprature measurements, The one filled with more "green house gasses" will always be hotter.




Now, Mr. Genius, how about this. Take two greenhouses, fill one up with more CO2 and guess what will happen? The plants will grow like crazy. Did you know people actually buy CO2 generators to put in their greenhouses? So the more CO2 we generate, the better everything will grow on the planet. Sounds awesome!!

Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:25:29 PM EDT
I've lived in the same place for 23 years. Winter is still cold and summer is still warm. Personnally, I wish global warming was happenning. No more snow shovelling, no more salt beating up my ride, no more ice scraping, longer bikini seasons......
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:48:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ender_Wiggin:
Golbal warming dosn't exist. So it can't be anyones fault. Average tempatures have been rising bacuase large population centers have been increasing. And places like Venice have been increasing their enegry output by a considerable ammount. Looking at a few graphs McGill, NV wnt from an average 48 in 1930 to 47 in 1995 that's a drop and Guthrie , OK wnt from 60.5 to 60 form 1930 to 2000. Places like Shanghi, New York, Venice, and Boston have all increased several degrees, because of human enegry output, not because of CO2 in the atmosphere. Thats been there fore a while, we increased it by 60 millionths or from 3.2 * 10^-5 to 3.8 * 10^-5, thats not a lot.



I heard a PhD'd professor give a very similar arguement, and he was ignored...

Basically it was:
"I'm old enough to remember flying out of RDU when it first opened. It was a gravel parking lot, a little shack, and 6 flights a day. Now you go out there and its a virtual city. There is concrete everywhere you look, and a plane landing or taking off every few minutes, all day long, all year long. So of course the measured temperatures there are going to be higher."
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:31:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Now, Mr. Genius, how about this. Take two greenhouses, fill one up with more CO2 and guess what will happen? The plants will grow like crazy. Did you know people actually buy CO2 generators to put in their greenhouses? So the more CO2 we generate, the better everything will grow on the planet. Sounds awesome!!




There was a theory being tossed around about the extinction of the Dinosaurs and certain mass extinction eras: over oxygenization of the atmosphere.
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