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Posted: 4/19/2007 3:24:34 AM EDT
Hi Guys, it's me again, the guy who started this discussion on the gun laws and the recent tragedy.

I thought you believed in freedom of speech in the US but that obviously doesn't extend as far as this forum. All I did was ask your thoughts and express my an opinion which didn't agree with the consensus and I was banned. I find it pretty disappointing that open debate is discouraged on this forum, i thought that's what forums are for.

Anyway here is another item I came across that I would be interested to hear you thoughts on.

CNN has produced a global interactive map of guncrime
edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0704/map.guncrime/Map.swf

Unlike most of the rest of western civilization where gun crime is low, the USA has levels of gun crime that are comparable with Bosnia, Nigeria and Kazakhstan.

I would be interested you hear what you think of these findings?

Cheers

Andy

PS. I really hope the moderators will be a little less trigger happy this time and not  gag me for simply asking questions.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:26:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:27:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  Sounds like the moderators had you pegged correctly as both.

/flush

BTW - When did England annex Kansas?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:28:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:28:34 AM EDT
[#4]
NoLow data on any of our favorite countries to rag on. Canada, UK, Aus and Japan.


damn I'm tired, I can't read the legend, less make sense of it. G'night arfcom.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:35:46 AM EDT
[#5]
height=8
Quoted:
Notice the places that gun crime is highest.  Guns are banned.  It is not the guns that are the problem.



Sorry I don't follow your argument, guns are banned in most of Europe where gun crime is low not high.


height=8
If you were banned how are you posting now?



I said I "was" banned which is the past tense. I am now obviously unbanned which is why I am posting again.


Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:38:55 AM EDT
[#6]
height=8
Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:45:09 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Notice the places that gun crime is highest.  Guns are banned.  It is not the guns that are the problem.



Sorry I don't follow your argument, guns are banned in most of Europe where gun crime is low not high.



If you were banned how are you posting now?



I said I "was" banned which is the past tense. I am now obviously unbanned which is why I am posting again.


Andy
Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:46:41 AM EDT
[#8]
where is the supposed information coming from?????????? Are you talking all violence, or just gun violence??? I ask this because I just recently did a paper on violence and gun violence for socialology class and all of the data I was able to obtain conflicts with you map.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:46:53 AM EDT
[#9]
 Hey!  Whuzzup DogFucker?  Kinda slow over at DU?  

 Soooooo.........do you want to explain the concept of "getting flamed"?  That's when everybody on the board busts your ass.  Its just our way of saying go troll somewhere else.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:49:46 AM EDT
[#10]
I don't particularly believe the map is accurate since it doesn't show the alarming increases in gun crime in England.  This is either an outdated or politically squewed map.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:50:06 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy


Thanks for that insight, professor Churchill.


Quoted:
I don't particularly believe the map is accurate since it doesn't show the alarming increases in gun crime in England.  This is either an outdated or politically squewed map.  


Impossible to tell since the map includes no actual numbers.  No dates, focus on urban areas vs. rural areas, just a bunch of colors with "HIGH MEDIUM AND LOW".  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:52:36 AM EDT
[#12]
height=8
Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.



Hi there, the discussion we are having which is about gun crime, the map says the UK along with the rest of Europe (where guns are pretty much banned) has lower gun crime than the US.

I don't know why you are changing the subject.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:52:52 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy


Than you don't really understand what freedom of speed entails.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:53:38 AM EDT
[#14]
Map courtesy of IANSA?

I do believe the VP of the NRA proved during the Great UN Gun Debate that Rebecca Peters, Chief Executive of the International Network of Small Arms (IANSA) lied about the facts, lied about IANSA's goals of a total ban on firearm ownership, and she also got caught numerous times DURING THE DEBATE.

So needless to say I question your information source.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:53:55 AM EDT
[#15]
No pool yet on what returning troll 'dognobbler' is?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:54:43 AM EDT
[#16]
Take a look at the islands in the gulf of mexico

bermuda, jamica, ect are all at the same leve as the US and no one says a thing
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:54:51 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.



Hi there, the discussion we are having which is about gun crime, the map says the UK along with the rest of Europe (where guns are pretty much banned) has lower gun crime than the US.

I don't know why you are changing the subject.

Andy


Not changing the subject. A lot of people are like me who carry for self defense. So your gonna deprive me of the right to self defense to lower one type of crime and raise another? Sounds like BS to me.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:55:10 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy


Your freedom of speech is very important and I respect your freedom of speech. I do not, however, respect someone coming into Home Depot and starting arguments about gun control, or screaming at everyone to be saved by Jesus, which is akin to this. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED WEBSITE. It is no different than www.apple.com's forums or any other website in that it is privately owned. The owners of this website will do as they see fit. This forum is a place for gun enthusiasts to socialize.

Picture, for example, a rabidly anti-gay heterosexual man walking into your favorite gay bar and asking the entire bar why they would possibly want to be gay when God forbids it and you get aids.

You would be very offended if someone acted this way while you were at the bar, wouldn't you?
Would you find it acceptable for the owners to throw him out, or would this be a violation of his freedom of speech?

This is a perfect real world example of 'trolling,' which you are doing, even if you don't mean any harm.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:55:35 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
I don't particularly believe the map is accurate since it doesn't show the alarming increases in gun crime in England.  This is either an outdated or politically squewed map.  


+1 Also, there's no quantative info within this map. I'd rather be looking at numbers instead of mildly amusing pretty colors.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:58:18 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.



Hi there, the discussion we are having which is about gun crime, the map says the UK along with the rest of Europe (where guns are pretty much banned) has lower gun crime than the US.

I don't know why you are changing the subject.

Andy
Uh I am not trying to change the subject.  If we are going to have an honest debate then we should include all crime.  My point is, ok you get rid of the guns, now the good guys can't defend themselves, the bad guys know this and can pretty much use any illegal gun they can get.  Or, like what has happened in the UK, they simply use knives or garden tools.

So you are concerned about crimes that involve guns, but see no relevance in increases of other crimes?  If you are concerned about people being victimized then you should be concerned about other violent crimes as well.  But I see you are not, your agenda isn't about finding ways to keep people safe and free, it is only about getting rid of guns and government control.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:00:24 AM EDT
[#21]
height=8
Than you don't really understand what freedom of speed entails.


I would be interested to hear your definition(s) of freedom of speech.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:01:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:01:28 AM EDT
[#23]
I also see on your little map there that some how, Mexico has a high rate of gun crimes.  You do know that they have some draconian gun laws.  Please explain that one as well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:02:02 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Than you don't really understand what freedom of speed entails.


I would be interested to hear your definition(s) of freedom of speech.

Andy


You have the right to say it, you don't have the right to be heard.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:02:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:


Anyway here is another item I came across that I would be interested to hear you thoughts on.

CNN has produced a global interactive map of guncrime
edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0704/map.guncrime/Map.swf

Unlike most of the rest of western civilization where gun crime is low, the USA has levels of gun crime that are comparable with Bosnia, Nigeria and Kazakhstan.

I would be interested you hear what you think of these findings?

Cheers

Andy

Well the map doesn't really tell us a lot, but a quick look indicates that gun laws -or laws in general- aren't worth the paper they are printed on in a criminals mind. While the US has much less restrictive gun laws than say Mexico, Mexico has a higher rate of gun crime. Mexico also has some of the strictest gun laws in the world along with a total firearm registration, yet they still have a seriously high crime rate involving firearms.

You will also find this missing from the map; Other countries that are shown with little or no gun crime still have high rates of violent crime..regardless of the instrument used.

Bad people don't go away with new laws, they find new ways to commit crimes -or as commonly seen in the highly restrictive states right here in the USA- they just dismiss the laws altogether.

I'm trying to figure out your take on this, what does the map show you?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:03:08 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

CNN has produced a global interactive map of guncrime
edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0704/map.guncrime/Map.swf



And NO, IANSA produced a map that CNN is USING. misrepresenting the facts to further your own goals is typical of the anti-gun crowd.

So you expect us (a bunch of gun owners) to believe the statistics of an organization that is against guns and that clearly has an agenda that is contrary to our basic beliefs?

In case you can't see it, you are being called out.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:03:13 AM EDT
[#27]
height=8
So your gonna deprive me of the right to self defense to lower one type of crime and raise another? Sounds like BS to me.


I'm not going to deprive anyone of anything, just interested in having a debate.

I'm still interested to hear why you think gun crime is so high in the states compared the rest of western society.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:04:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Mexico, which has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world, has one of the highest rates.  Same continent, same makeup of people (at least as SoCal ), more gun crime.

Goes to show you gun laws do not work.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:05:09 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

So your gonna deprive me of the right to self defense to lower one type of crime and raise another? Sounds like BS to me.


I'm not going to deprive anyone of anything, just interested in having a debate.

I'm still interested to hear why you think gun crime is so high in the states compared the rest of western society.

Andy


I'm asking why it matters if your only qualifier to the question is more gun control?

ETA: As already pointed out and you've dismissed. You don't reduce crime, you just alter it. From guns to knives. From both criminals and victims with guns to criminals with guns.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:07:32 AM EDT
[#30]
Europe doesn't have the same cultural problems we have, the majority of theirs are the blow themselves up variety.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:08:46 AM EDT
[#31]
I have  a question.  Why are Muslims, more apt to burning cars and rioting in France than in the US?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:09:21 AM EDT
[#32]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy


Your freedom of speech is very important and I respect your freedom of speech. I do not, however, respect someone coming into Home Depot and starting arguments about gun control, or screaming at everyone to be saved by Jesus, which is akin to this. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED WEBSITE. It is no different than www.apple.com's forums or any other website in that it is privately owned. The owners of this website will do as they see fit. This forum is a place for gun enthusiasts to socialize.

Picture, for example, a rabidly anti-gay heterosexual man walking into your favorite gay bar and asking the entire bar why they would possibly want to be gay when God forbids it and you get aids.

You would be very offended if someone acted this way while you were at the bar, wouldn't you?
Would you find it acceptable for the owners to throw him out, or would this be a violation of his freedom of speech?

This is a perfect real world example of 'trolling,' which you are doing, even if you don't mean any harm.
h
If you don't like the TV channel you are watching you don't ban the channel, you turn over. At least I do.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:10:31 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately run internet forum and is usually the first thing brought up by a troll or an idiot.  


This is priceless, so basically freedom of speech applies unless you are the one controlling the freedom.

I love the irony.

Andy


Your freedom of speech is very important and I respect your freedom of speech. I do not, however, respect someone coming into Home Depot and starting arguments about gun control, or screaming at everyone to be saved by Jesus, which is akin to this. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED WEBSITE. It is no different than www.apple.com's forums or any other website in that it is privately owned. The owners of this website will do as they see fit. This forum is a place for gun enthusiasts to socialize.

Picture, for example, a rabidly anti-gay heterosexual man walking into your favorite gay bar and asking the entire bar why they would possibly want to be gay when God forbids it and you get aids.

You would be very offended if someone acted this way while you were at the bar, wouldn't you?
Would you find it acceptable for the owners to throw him out, or would this be a violation of his freedom of speech?

This is a perfect real world example of 'trolling,' which you are doing, even if you don't mean any harm.



Sorry I don't agree with your analogy, this is a message board. If you don't like what I am saying there are lots of other threads you could be reading. I am not forcing my views on anyone other than those that choose to participate.

If you don't like the TV channel you are watching you don't ban the channel, you turn over. At least I do.

Andy


Just as the network can control its content, so can the moderators. Blew your analogy to shit. You can talk on another network, ahem I mean message board.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:10:53 AM EDT
[#34]
 Since your probably from England, you may or may not have read our Constitution.  The 1st amendment guarantees that THE GOVERNMENT will not restrict free speech.  This is a private site.  No different from a home.  If you would have been honest and said "Hi guys.  I'm a flaming homo, liberal, gun control advocating, dog nobbling freak and would like to have some debate."  Well, we would laugh at you.  But, then we could have some debate.
 But since you tried to sneak in and spring booby traps (How's that working out for ya?), you get flamed and banned.  Everybody around here believes in free speech (as well as the 2nd amendment) and if you would just come out of the closet, I'm sure that you can get debate.   However, you don't want honest debate, you want to "catch" us in some off hand comment that you can twist and take out of context to suit your purposes.
 So, whattaya say?  Ready to admit your true political leanings?  Or are your still repressing?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:14:26 AM EDT
[#35]
I'm not going to worry about freedom of speech until we are done giving guns to all the school children.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:15:38 AM EDT
[#36]
height=8
Just as the network can control its content, so can the moderators. Blew your analogy to shit. You can talk on another network, ahem I mean message board.


Fair enough, it wasn't a great analogy.

Still don't agree with you though. I don't see why people are not allowed to express opinions that disagree with the consensus.

Isn't anyone interested in debating their beliefs here?

Andy

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:16:58 AM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Just as the network can control its content, so can the moderators. Blew your analogy to shit. You can talk on another network, ahem I mean message board.


Fair enough, it wasn't a great analogy.

Still don't agree with you though. I don't see why people are not allowed to express opinions that disagree with the consensus.

Isn't anyone interested in debating their beliefs here?

Andy



Your not debating, your trolling. Want to try again by responding with what your beliefs are?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:17:23 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

So your gonna deprive me of the right to self defense to lower one type of crime and raise another? Sounds like BS to me.


I'm not going to deprive anyone of anything, just interested in having a debate.

I'm still interested to hear why you think gun crime is so high in the states compared the rest of western society.

Andy


Your premise is FUNDEMENTALY flawed.

You CANNOT seperate GUN violence with VIOLENCE.

Is a criminal any more 'moral' if they use a knife or a hammer to assualt/rape/kill a person than a gun? Is it any less of a crime.

The fact is there are BAD people out there. There always has been there always will be. Firearms are the only piece of defensive equipment that put a defender on equal footing as an attacker. Criminals by deffinition will not follow laws. Being helpless does not make you safe. Firearms are only a tool. It is sort sighted to worry about taking the tools of a criminal away, and in so doing take away the best protection a law abiding person has.

We should ban criminals. Violent criminals should have a 3 strike system. Our legal system is more concerned with putting pot heads in jail than they are with Child molesters, murderers and violent criminals.

The VT shooter did not obey the campus gun free rule. Had one CCW holder been present on the scene the death count would have been lower.

Further you are not looking for a debate, you are trying to prove that you are right and we are wrong, when all the data, ALL not just biased data from a gun control orginization, is used your conclusions will take a 180 degree detour.

If you want to see the real data take a look at John Lotts book More Guns Less Crime. Also read his account of how and why he became a CCW and firearm rights advocate. It will be enlightening. But I would wager that you are not looking for truth, but to further your own agenda.

You will not find any converts here. After all this is home of the black rifle and we all love and cherish our 'evil guns'.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:18:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Someone in the thread yesterday offered to take you out shooting.

Are you interested in learning more about firearms, or are you pretty established in your beliefs?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:19:18 AM EDT
[#40]
height=8
Quoted:
If you would have been honest and said "Hi guys.  I'm a flaming homo, liberal, gun control advocating, dog nobbling freak and would like to have some debate."  


Hi yy name is Andy and I am a liberal, gun control advocating freak. I'm not a homo though.

Can we have a debate now?

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:20:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Sorry I can't play around with the troll any more, work calls.........
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:20:58 AM EDT
[#42]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Just as the network can control its content, so can the moderators. Blew your analogy to shit. You can talk on another network, ahem I mean message board.


Fair enough, it wasn't a great analogy.

Still don't agree with you though. I don't see why people are not allowed to express opinions that disagree with the consensus.

Isn't anyone interested in debating their beliefs here?

Andy



It's not a debate.  This is not your own private free-speech zone.   All you want to talk about is "gun crime" but refuse to discuss the rampant increase in violent crime in places where guns are banned.    A debate includes two sides and a frank disscussion of the potential concequences of actions taken.    We have already debated endlessly in this country about guns and the conclusion is that we either burn the constitution and start over or we allow people full access to their right to defend themselves which from a violence standpoint seems to work out to be about the same.   However if we revise the constitution we might as well just become like England where people's individual rights are relatively meaningless in service to the nanny state.

There are hundreds of millions of legally owned firearms in this country and the rate of crimes perpetrated with firearms held by legitimate owners is in the tenths of 1% of total gun crime.    The issue clearly is not with legally-owned weapons it's about criminals and misfits that we have been loathe to deal with properly.    Maybe we could debate the potential benefits of England becoming a penal colony?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:20:58 AM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
I thought you believed in freedom of speech in the US but that obviously doesn't extend as far as this forum.


If you are going to campaign for free speech, why don't you start with DU?




All I did was ask your thoughts and express my an opinion which didn't agree with the consensus and I was banned. I find it pretty disappointing that open debate is discouraged on this forum, i thought that's what forums are for.


Open debate happens all the time on this forum.

So do trolls who show up to stir up nonsense.

We ban the trolls.

Open debate proceeds along just fine.



Unlike most of the rest of western civilization where gun crime is low, the USA has levels of gun crime that are comparable with Bosnia, Nigeria and Kazakhstan.


Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Comparing "gun crime" is absolutely stupid. A murder committed with a machette in the UK is not going to be considered gun crime....and yet the victim is still dead. To say that a victim killed by a machette is preferable to one killed by a gun is the height of stupidity.

What you must examine, then, is the OVERALL VIOLENT CRIME RATE of various nations...and darned if it doesn't turn out that other nations with much stricter gun control STILL have higher violent crime rates than the US.



PS. I really hope the moderators will be a little less trigger happy this time and not  gag me for simply asking questions.


The mods are expert troll hunters.

If they drop the hammer on you it is most likely because you deserved it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:21:38 AM EDT
[#44]
height=8
Quoted:
Someone in the thread yesterday offered to take you out shooting.

Are you interested in learning more about firearms, or are you pretty established in your beliefs?


I am definetly open to shooting some stuff and learning some more.

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:21:57 AM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you would have been honest and said "Hi guys.  I'm a flaming homo, liberal, gun control advocating, dog nobbling freak and would like to have some debate."  


Hi yy name is Andy and I am a liberal, gun control advocating freak. I'm not a homo though.

Can we have a debate now?

Andy


Ok lets debate.
What do you think gun control would accomplish?
What unintended consequences are you prepared to deal with?

I'm sure more people will have followups.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:22:06 AM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.



Hi there, the discussion we are having which is about gun crime, the map says the UK along with the rest of Europe (where guns are pretty much banned) has lower gun crime than the US.

I don't know why you are changing the subject.

Andy
Would you disagree that any country should have less GUN crime if GUNS are banned.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:23:27 AM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:
Ok, then why does the UK, where guns are pretty much banned, have a higher crime rate then the US?  The UK has many more cases of sexual assault, home invasions, burglary, and theft per capita, then the US.

Explain that one please.


No, no....

See, he is focusing on "gun crime" in an attempt to skew the arguement from the very beginning.

See, if we focus on "gun crime" we can compare the US to third world nations and make everything look really bad while skipping over European nations that have HIGHER overall violent crime rates which are OK because not as many "gun crimes" happen there.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:23:52 AM EDT
[#48]
height=8
a machette in the UK is not going to be considered gun crime....and yet the victim is still dead


Surely by that argument a machette in the US is not going to be considered gun crime....and yet the victim is still dead?

Or are your machette victims considered gun crime?

Andy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:24:31 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
Impossible to tell since the map includes no actual numbers.  No dates, focus on urban areas vs. rural areas, just a bunch of colors with "HIGH MEDIUM AND LOW".  


Which, to someone with a background in statistics and statistical analysis, is a giant red flag saying "ABSOLUTELY USELESS!!!"

If I handed something like that in to my statistics professor he would have given me an F.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:24:54 AM EDT
[#50]
IANSA and CNN have ZERO credibility in my book.

Just my .02
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