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Posted: 8/21/2004 10:08:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 10:11:50 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:12:47 AM EST
You are of course referring to the days when basketball was a team sport. Now, it's all about me!
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:16:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:16:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 10:20:31 AM EST by Airwolf]
"Professional" sports in this country is about one thing... MONEY. The owners don't give a crap about anything but getting TV contracts and butts in the seats. They will hire ANYONE that will generate money for them and in this society that usually means people that have somesort of "gimmick" or are so "shocking" that the fans tune in just to see what will happen next.

It hasn't been about TEAM and ACHIVEMENT since the first baseball strike. That's when it turned into a BUSINESS and a JOB instead of SPORT.

The last time I followed any team was back in '96-97 when I lived in SFO I got hooked on the 49'ers. Jerry Rice and Steve Young (and the team in general) personified what I remembered about "Pro" sports as I was growing up.

Today Pro Sports is just something to fill in time between the commercials which are the REALLY important thing.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:17:04 AM EST
Like it or not, you can thank Michael Jordan for this.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:20:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By mac130:
You are of course referring to the days when basketball was a team sport. Now, it's all about me!



Yea, I went to UK and the five national championships produced not one superstar. Sad, what the sport has become.

Tj



Unless we change our attitudes in America, I think this will be common place. I'll put a "team" against five individuals anyday.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:21:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:21:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By mac130:
You are of course referring to the days when basketball was a team sport. Now, it's all about me!



Yea, I went to UK and the five national championships produced not one superstar. Sad, what the sport has become.

Tj



Exactly why I no longer watch it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:25:24 AM EST
But if Jordan hadn't been taught the fundamentals by Dean Smith, he would have been just another player. Q: Who can hold MJ to 20 pts a game? A: Dean Smith
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:26:49 AM EST



Funny you should say that for it is an exact quote of "Adolph Rupp".

Tj



Don't know him, but he sounds like a smart man.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:30:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:30:34 AM EST
Adolph Rupp, as in Rupp Arena at the University of Kentucky. The U.S. Capitol of college basketball.

Bob




Originally Posted By mac130:



Funny you should say that for it is an exact quote of "Adolph Rupp".

Tj



Don't know him, but he sounds like a smart man.

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:32:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By WackyG:
But if Jordan hadn't been taught the fundamentals by Dean Smith, he would have been just another player. Q: Who can hold MJ to 20 pts a game? A: Dean Smith



I don't get your point. It's would be OK to lose as long as MJ scored alot?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:34:51 AM EST
I know very little about basketball but it seems to me that if the scores are constantly 100+ to 100+ that defense is not stressed.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:34:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By WackyG:
But if Jordan hadn't been taught the fundamentals by Dean Smith, he would have been just another player. Q: Who can hold MJ to 20 pts a game? A: Dean Smith


Michael Jordan is the single player who is responsible for the increased emphasis the basketball world put on:

A. Scoring lots of points regardless of the outcome of the game
B. Taking as many shots as possible
C. Dunking
D. Showboating while dunking
E. Making sure your game is good for marketing and endorsements

All the kids playing now learned these lessons from MJ.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:41:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 10:45:47 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Like it or not, you can thank Michael Jordan for this.

Goblin sets up, fade away jumper.... SWISH! Nothing but net!!!

Truer words have never been spoken.


Michael Jordan elevated the act of palming, travelling, double dribbling, hooking and pushing-off to an art form all for the mighty bling-bling.

ANYONE who was allowed to cheat and draw BS-fouls as much as Jordan can score 40pts a night.

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:03:27 AM EST

Yea, I went to UK and the five national championships produced not one superstar. Sad, what the sport has become.


Well I'll be damned! Never knew you attended big blue.

BTW, not to nitpick, but we now have 7 national championships in basketball. The last two came in 1996 and 1998.

While I agree, basketball has largely gone from a team sport to one of flash. I am proud we still have an old school coach like Tubby Smith at UK. His guys either play tough, grinding defense, or else they don't play at all. In fact, I much prefer him to the run and gun and shoot 3's every trip down court style of Rick Pitino when he was here. But out of all of them, I suppose Rupp is still da man. He was the one who got it all started and built the dynasty.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:04:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:25:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:
Adolph Rupp, as in Rupp Arena at the University of Kentucky. The U.S. Capitol of college basketball.

Bob



Damn straight.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:36:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
"Professional" sports in this country is about one thing... MONEY.



And "Money" is about winning. Losing teams don't bring in the dough.

Btw, wtf is up with this:

We win: "Your Olympic team is made up of all PRO players! It's not fair, you cheated. Of course the pros are better."
We lose: "Pro sports is shit."

Bla bla bla bla bla.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:37:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By mac130:

Originally Posted By WackyG:
But if Jordan hadn't been taught the fundamentals by Dean Smith, he would have been just another player. Q: Who can hold MJ to 20 pts a game? A: Dean Smith



I don't get your point. It's would be OK to lose as long as MJ scored alot?



It means Jordan's coach at UNC made him play as a team member, no matter how good he was individually.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:28:40 PM EST
I have a feeling that you don't watch that much basketball. While you are correct that there is more of an emphasis on individual achievement today than there once was it is not the reason the US has been playing poorly. The following are much more significant:

1. USA basketball has a big target on it's back. Everyone plays as hard as they can against us.

2. Olympic rules are VERY different than NBA rules. I won't go into the differences here but the main point is that other teams play with these Oly rules all year round while our players only encounter them in the weeks leading up to the Olympics, World Championships, etc...

3. Foreign teams play together for much longer than the US players. This is of course because of the NBA.

4. Our best players decline to play for the national team. Players like KG, Shaq, Kobe, Kidd, and Bibby would DESTROY the competition. Instead we're stuck with lower tier players like Jefferson, James, and Anthony (they're rookies for Christ sake).

5. Lastly, USA Basketball makes poor decisions on who to send. There are NO perimeter shooters on this team and not enough big guys. This must have been all to obvious as you watched the three games so far.

The reason they are losing is not this individual attitude you bring up. While it might bother you personally, it simply is not the reason they aren't that good.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:39:55 PM EST
US Professional Athlete = Rapper/Actor/Fashion Designer/Pitch man

They have very little to do with athletics anymore. It's all about the points for the agents.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:20:29 PM EST
THe fact that PROS got beat TWICE by amatures, shows that the PROS lack the TEAM concept.

Every player on the US team is overpaid in the NBA, as are most of the major league players.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:37:49 PM EST
As to the title of this thread...

Blacks are 12.3% of the US population.

Blacks are nearly 100% of the NBA population.

Something ain't right there.

'Nuff said.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:43:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:55:23 PM EST
I have not watched College since "Pistol Pete Maravich" played for LSU in the early 70's
and not watched NBA since the Celtics were in the playoffs every year in the early 80's

I can no longer relate!!!
I HATE "Hip-Hop" generation
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:58:04 PM EST
Now the DUNK seems to be the whole game--What "skill it takes to be over 6'8 and dunk the ball.." NOT
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:19:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:26:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
THe fact that PROS got beat TWICE by amatures, shows that the PROS lack the TEAM concept.



I as much as the next guy do not really like the NBA pro's playing Olympic basketball but to call other countries team players amateurs is pretty ignorant. Darius Songaila plays for the Kings. Sarunas Jasikevicius turned down this year a 5 year multimillion dollar contract to play for CSKA Moscow instead deciding to remain with his Maccabi Tel Aviv team for another year. Ksystofas Lavrinovicius and Saulius Stombergas play Pro ball in Russia. I am sure the rest of the team also plays pro-ball in Europe.

The reason our pro's do not play like a team is because they are not a team, they are just all-stars put together at the last minute. You can't blame them for that. Place the blame with the U.S. Olympic committee.

I have to agree with pretty much all the points that DocBrooks brought up. For example:


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
As I watched Litiuania put it to the US Olympic team today, I was anything but surprised as this team showed all the traits we once valued in the sport and we showed very little. They constantly denied the US the under basket and pounded the boards with long shots many of them 3 pointers. The pro-players of the US continued to seek the dunk as the score slowly ebbed the otherway.



The Lithuanians denied the under basket shot because in Olympic ball you can play zones where you bunch your defense up. That is why you see so many good perimeter shooters from other countries. In the NBA those zone defenses would be illegal. The goal of the U.S. today was to hammer the boards and score in the paint because based on bad choices they do not have good perimeter shooters on the team and thus had to rely on their strongpoints.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:42:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By R0933C:
As to the title of this thread...

Blacks are 12.3% of the US population.

Blacks are nearly 100% of the NBA population.

Something ain't right there.

'Nuff said.



Did you somehow miss the VERY FIRST SENTENCE in this thread.

Let's not be dumbasses, OK?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:57:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 3:00:32 PM EST by 1776]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

I watched with little surprise as a pro-American team full of individuals was beat soundly by a true team that played the game as a team sport instead of a court full of one on one play.




That says it all. All star "teams" never work out.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:01:05 PM EST
Tagged for further reading.

I cant stand basketball. But this is a good discusion to listen in on.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:01:37 PM EST
uze talkin hoop?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:18:45 PM EST
What does this have to do with Jewish Ghettoes?
The word Ghetto was adopted to describe a population of people(Jews) that were forcibly seperated from the general population , and endured slum like conditions.
I've never really liked the term Ghetto as it is applied today to describe housing projects and so forth.
Sorry to pick nits TJ. I don't mean to be a smart @ss, or to hijack this thread. You make an excellent point about basketball. I just had the poor taste to mention my personal feelings on the title. I just don't think most people realize what they are saying when they use the word. I guess I should start my own thread...

Now back to our previously scheduled post.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:38:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 4:44:14 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:51:30 AM EST
Troll thread if I ever saw one....

First you say...


Ghettoization of American Basketball


Followed by.....


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
First guys please don't turn this into some racist BS.



Gimme a fuckin break. If the thread title didnt set a racial tone for the thread, nothing anyone else could say would.

Dont forget you also said...


Yes 21doc, I am guilty of using sensationalism to get people to read this thread, however the term Ghetto has been used to describe the projects in large cities since the 60's and intended no reference to 20 years before that.


You named the parameters of the thread from the start, Im telling Sally.



And for those of you blaming modern basketballs on MJ, you may not remember it but.....

The ABA changed basketball forever.







Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:55:11 AM EST
Can't shoot jumpers.

Can't shoot freethrows.

Won't win games.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:02:28 AM EST
I think the America pendelum has swung to the individual in more than just baskeball.

Even the Military, which is all about team work has a new slogan, "An Army of One".

I have always prized individualism but can also admire a well trained team that works together well.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:21:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Like it or not, you can thank Michael Jordan for this.



Jordan was the last high dollar player that made his team mates look and play better.
He was a warrrior and a gentleman on the court.
He openly states that Pippen, Kerr, Armstrong and the Bulls bench were the reason he enjoyed such sucess on the court.

Compare this to the "Thug Ballers" of today and you'll see why I went from watching 100 plus games a year to ZERO.

We will never see the likes of Bird, Parish and McHale on one team again, sad...

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:40:08 AM EST
I have always clled it ghettoball since they started allowing carrying over, travelling, etc...


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
First guys please don't turn this into some racist BS.

American basketball over the years has converted from a game of solid fundamentals, teamwork, and acurate shooting to sensationalism of personal achievement, school yard under the basket play, and a total lack of fundamentals. There was a time when a a free throw was like counting the score down.

As I watched Litiuania put it to the US Olympic team today, I was anything but surprised as this team showed all the traits we once valued in the sport and we showed very little. They constantly denied the US the under basket and pounded the boards with long shots many of them 3 pointers. The pro-players of the US continued to seek the dunk as the score slowly ebbed the otherway.

I've watched the same happening to college ball as fundamentals give way to school yard heroics and team work falls to the superstar. This is of course fueled by the media and marketing efforts to sell tickets, however the end result is we as a country are losing at one of our national sports.

I watched with little surprise as a pro-American team full of individuals was beat soundly by a true team that played the game as a team sport instead of a court full of one on one play.

Tj




Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:44:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
As I watched Litiuania put it to the US Olympic team today

Tj



Wait, where is the 'team' you speak of? All I saw was a bunch of cry baby millionaires, whose collective contracts are worth in the billions get creamed by some tall cow milkier and sheppard boys from Eastern Europe.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:44:37 AM EST
One other thing we need to remember here. Even though Michael Jordan is likely the guy that all of today's players try to emulate, let's remember, these guys aren't Michael Jordan! Jordan was a guy who was a one in one hundred years type of player. So while these players try to act like Jordan, they aren't Jordan. If Jordan was on this team, they would not have lost yesterday. Like him/his style or not, Jordan could actually get the job done, which is more than I can say for the team we have on the court this year. So while I hate hot-dogging, ball hogging and that sort of thing, Jordan could get it done on the court. But these guys seriously need to remember who they are. Young guys like Carmelo Anthony, Richard Jefferson, and LeBron James have lots of talent, but Michael Jordan they are not. Now if we could only convince them of this.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:48:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By SS109:
I think the America pendelum has swung to the individual in more than just baskeball.

Even the Military, which is all about team work has a new slogan, "An Army of One".

I have always prized individualism but can also admire a well trained team that works together well.



"Army of One" is a freakin' Army RECRUITING slogan, not the "Military" slogan. It is marketed towards CIVILIANS - and - perhaps as an indicator of our society - seems to work. To say that that slogan is indicative of the Army - or the military as a whole - displayes outright ignorance on your part.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:51:20 AM EST
This is 100% about the NBA rule that prohibits zone D.

Not ghettoization, palming, traveling, or bling.

The NBA is the only league in world that has outlawed zone defense. We now have 5 one-on-one games going on. Who can stop Shaq by himself? Nobody. (Maybe Yao)

At the same time, how much easier it to get an open look at at three-pointer against a zone?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:56:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By CavVet:
Gimme a fuckin break. If the thread title didnt set a racial tone for the thread, nothing anyone else could say would.

And for those of you blaming modern basketballs on MJ, you may not remember it but.....

The ABA changed basketball forever.


Wrong. The ABA influenced the NBA, but it was the ABA that dissolved and a few of the teams were absorbed by the NBA.

The NBA was revitalized by the quality of the players that started playing in the early 80s. These players, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas (to name a few) all were extremely talented but what set them apart was their ability to include the entire cast around them into the flow of the game. Consequently, we remember the Celtics and Lakers of the 80s as being the best TEAMS the NBA has ever seen.

Michael Jordan reversed that trend, starting with his rookie year. The entire game was about "Jordan," how many points he would score that night, and how many crowd-pleasing dunks he would attempt. People went to see the Bulls because of Jordan, people went to see the Lakers and Celtics to experience basketball at it's zenith.

I still say that the Lakers from the 80s would destroy any team from any era. I say this because many people consider the Celtics from the 80s as being the best of all time and the Lakers beat them much more often than they lost to them. No team from the 90s or today would be able to touch those Lakers. No one. They had Hall-of-Famers up the wazzoo and they all meshed perfectly.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:02:02 AM EST
This "army of one" thing has me a bit confused. Some seem to take it to mean as in a ONE INDIVIDUAL type thing. But my interpretation of it means what it says...an army of one. Not one person, but rather a team that "works as one". I guess it could be interpreted multiple ways. But me this seems less individual oriented than the older slogan "be all you can be". To me, that seems to place more emphasis on individuality than the new one, based on my interpretation anyway. I mean afterall, "being all you can be" only speaks for the individual and not necessarily the whole team. Maybe I'm just dense, I dunno. LOL.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:45:47 AM EST
?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:51:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 8:32:25 AM EST by Leisure_Shoot]
echo...

"ARMY OF ONE"
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:15:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Like it or not, you can thank Michael Jordan free agency, sports agents & endorsements for this.



Fixed it for ya.

All pro sports have sacrificed the integrity of their respective games for the almighty dollar.

NBA - Sprewell should have been fired (you try to choke your boss and see if you keep your job)

MLB - Alomar should have been fired (you try to spit in your boss's face and see if you keep your job)

NFL - Dallas (and other teams) get byes for athlete's coke habits and other antics

Even older conservative stalwarts like Nascar are selling out to the wrestling inspired hype, nonsense and contrived drama.

Call it ghettoization or just pandering to the lowest common denominator - the "sports" today might just as well be Vegas sideshows (notice the weiner drug ads on every single sporting event?) all designed to seperate the mindless consumer from their dollar as quickly as possible. Just compare the endorsements & commercial time of ANY sport broadcast today with it's equivalent of 30, or even 20 years ago.

Need we even go into corrupt politicians bought off to push through new stadiums for these thieves sports organizations?

It's all about money, nothing to do with sportsmanship, and I support none of it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:28:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 8:32:12 AM EST by mojo]
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