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Posted: 4/15/2006 8:19:45 PM EST
I had a chance to visit the outstanding Patton Museum in Fort Knox, KY last weekend.

The best exhibit in the museum by far is the King Tiger. It's hard to describe how massive it is -- it looked to be about as wide as two Hummer H1s and as long as a bus. Here are some photos:









The turret on the tank has been cut away so you can view inside. Here's a photo of the cutaway:



and another showing how thick the armor is ($5 bill for scale, but it's actually being held vertically, the armor is about half as thick as the length of the bill):



And of course, I have to include a picture of the German 88 on display:

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:26:57 PM EST
There’s enough room in that turret for Oktoberfest!

Cool pics thanks!
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:29:19 PM EST
Dang, that's a big hunk o' steel.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:35:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 8:39:11 PM EST by AyeGuy]
They really need to re-paint that Tiger II with a real Wehrmachct cammo scheme, not that inaccurate job it's done in now.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:38:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By QUIB:
There’s enough room in that turret for Oktoberfest!

Cool pics thanks!



Not when the long-ass 88mm ammo that's stored in the turret bustle is in place.

And that is a CRIME of the first order to have cut those sections out of the side of that historic artefact!
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:55:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
They really need to re-paint that Tiger II with a real Wehrmachct cammo scheme, not that inaccurate job it's done in now.



I think it looks good.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:56:45 PM EST
None of the colors are standard WW2 Wehrmacht.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:06:58 PM EST
Torch that fly!!!

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:10:36 PM EST
88 CM?

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:54:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
They really need to re-paint that Tiger II with a real Wehrmachct cammo scheme, not that inaccurate job it's done in now.



Looks like they started to do a Normandy-style "Ambush scheme", but omitted the tan/green/brown "dots". Also, it's my understanding that the "official" interior color was white, not tan.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:01:10 PM EST
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:01:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
None of the colors are standard WW2 Wehrmacht.



The colors aren't that bad. All German armor that left the factory in "panzer yellow" were given several tins of concintrated paint (picture a big-assed tin of Kiwi shoe polish). One green, one brown and one "yellow". When they hit the field, the crews were to thin the paint with gasoline and use the on-board air compressor to spray an "aproved" camo scheme. Some units tried to "standardise" the scheme....others didn't give a damn and let the individual tank crews have free reign. And depending on how much the paint was thinned with gas, you could have greens ranging from dark forest all the way to pea green. Same with browns.....anything from dark chocolate to almost rust red.
So when it comes to German armor, there really is no correct color or pattern.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:17:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
88 CM?




I saw that too.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:27:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By SrBenelli:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
None of the colors are standard WW2 Wehrmacht.



The colors aren't that bad. All German armor that left the factory in "panzer yellow" were given several tins of concintrated paint (picture a big-assed tin of Kiwi shoe polish). One green, one brown and one "yellow". When they hit the field, the crews were to thin the paint with gasoline and use the on-board air compressor to spray an "aproved" camo scheme. Some units tried to "standardise" the scheme....others didn't give a damn and let the individual tank crews have free reign. And depending on how much the paint was thinned with gas, you could have greens ranging from dark forest all the way to pea green. Same with browns.....anything from dark chocolate to almost rust red.
So when it comes to German armor, there really is no correct color or pattern.



"tan" DOES NOT = RAL 7028 (Dunklegelb)

"green" DOES NOT = RAL 6003 (Olivgrun)

"brown" DOES NOT = RAL 8017 (Rotbraun)
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:30:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.



It should be noted that Wittman commanded a Tiger I and not the bigger Tiger II.

Also of note, there is not a single documented case of a Tiger II being penetrated from the front.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:43:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:45:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
None of the colors are standard WW2 Wehrmacht.



The hell you say. From here:



Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:39:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 11:41:27 PM EST by Manic_Moran]
I don't think the colours are an issue... There's a gaping big hole in the side of the tank which is a bit more obvious. It's a shame they did that.

There is some dispute as to whether or not the T26E4 Super-Pershing could have penetrated a Tiger II frontally. Probably wouldn't have taken the hit from the long 88 though.

I just wish to make one correction...

I had a chance to visit the outstanding Patton Museum in Fort Knox, KY last weekend.


Should read

"I had a chance to visit the mediocre Patton Museum in Fort Knox..."

Bovington (UK) and the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation (California) are both far better. Aberdeen has a great collection, but the vehicles are in a terrible state. I have yet to go visit the one in Moscow, which is probably the best tank museum in the world. Samur and Munster are also in the running, by reputation.

The highlight of the Patton Museum is the T-28 they have sitting outside the front.

NTM
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 12:28:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 12:29:00 AM EST by AyeGuy]
I rest my case





The colors on the museum Tiger II are COMPLETLY different.

Respect my authorita.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 12:34:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.



It should be noted that Wittman commanded a Tiger I and not the bigger Tiger II.

Also of note, there is not a single documented case of a Tiger II being penetrated from the front.



You're right; it was a Tiger I Mid Production model. I kinda dropped the ball on that one.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 12:43:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 12:43:59 AM EST by CSeaBass]
hehe, cool... that kettenkard(sp?) is bad ass. my best friend in highschool had one in his garage. it ran, but he always needed new pads for it. so i never got to ride on it:( i miss that guy.

hehe he had a kubel too, on the side of his house.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:15:28 AM EST

The colors on the museum Tiger II are COMPLETLY different.

Respect my authorita.


OH please! give it up. You got bitch slapped and you know it. OK?............................ Sarge?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:44:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Respect my authorita.





Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:54:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:

Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
88 CM?



I saw that too.


That'd be one big gun!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:58:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 1:59:25 AM EST by Madis]




in Panzermuseum, Münster, Germany.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 2:10:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.



From Wittmans biography:

What exactly happened next is still a matter of conjecture, but it would appear from the various versions that have been presented is that Wittmann had found his Tiger surrounded on the outskirts of the woods outside Cintheaux, and fell victim to an attack that both disabled the track mechanism and set it alight. According to all of the reports that have since become available, this took place at around 1247 hours. At 1255 hours, SS-Hauptschführer Hans Höflinger of the 2nd Company had seen Wittmann's Tiger in a stationary position but still intact; however neither Höflinger nor the medical officer SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Wolfgang Rabe were able to reach their commander's stricken vehicle, and were forced to retreat. It was only some time after this that the turret of Tiger Nr. 007 was separated from the hull, no doubt the result of an internal explosion caused by the on-board ammunition and burning fuel. No shell could have achieved this result; the turret was so heavy that the result could only have been caused by a blast from within the vehicle.

Not more than an hour into the afternoon of 8 August 1944, Michael Wittmann and his crew were reported missing in action.




The shattered turret of Wittmann's Tiger, Nr. 007. The turret has been completely torn away from the hull, and ruptured by an internal explosion. Wittmann's Tiger has been 'claimed' by a number of Allied units, although it has also been argued that it had been destroyed by airborne forces. The photograph was taken by a French civilian.

Michael Wittmann's death on 8 August 1944 could well have been avoided; he did not have to accompany the other Tigers, but did so nevertheless on account of the fact that SS-Hauptsturmführer Franz Heurich, newly promoted to the command of the 3rd Company, lacked the necessary battlefield experience. The words he uttered were no doubt etched on the minds of those who survived: "I must go with them". As ever, Wittmann was there for his men, and perished as a result. A soldier's soldier to the last, he would not have had it any other way. The news of the loss of their beloved "Michel" sent shockwaves through the ranks of the Leibstandarte, from the ordinary soldier through to "Sepp" Dietrich himself; the day proved to be one of the blackest in the history of the division.

The full story of what exactly happened to Michael Wittmann and his crew might perhaps never be known, although his legendary reputation has led to him being 'claimed' by a number of Allied units that had been operating in the area at the time. According to one source, Wittmann's Tiger had found itself cornered by tanks of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, B Sqn, 144 Regiment Royal Armoured Corps and the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment (The Sherbrooke Fusiliers) in the area around St. Aignan-de-Cramesnil, while the Canadians have claimed that the Panzer ace had been surrounded and destroyed by a platoon of Shermans belonging to their 4th Armoured Division. The Polish 1st Armoured division also staked their claim. Elsewhere it has been postulated that Wittmann's Tiger had fallen victim to an attack carried out by Allied airborne forces.

Further research has exposed the holes in many of these claims; for instance, the like taken by the Poles actually took them east of St. Aignan-de-Cramesnil, and moreover they did not cross their start line until 1355, more than an hour after Wittmann had been reported missing. The claim made for the Canadian 4th Armoured can also be doubted in that their main thrust had taken place through the town of Rocquancourt. The operations record book of 2 Tactical Air Force and the lack of any tank kill conformation in the area on that day can be used to discount the claim that Wittmann's tiger had been destroyed from the air - although there had been confirmed tank kills in the Argentan-Fliers-Falaise area.

From all of the evidence that has been presented, it would appear that only two of those parties named can present claims that can be supported by any kind of evidence: the 1st Northants Yeomanry and the Sherbrookes. According to members of the Sherbrookes, one of their Fireflies had engaged a Tiger close to the RN158, but that this Tiger had been at the time facing in the direction of an orchard where tanks of the 1st Northants Yeomanry had been deployed. From this, it can be deduced that Wittmann's Tiger could have been destroyed any one, if not both, of these two parties. However, the RHQ vehicle of the Sherbrookes had been destroyed not long after this sighting, so there is no concrete record of the event. (Thanks to Brian Reid for further information on the events of 8th August 1944).

It would appear that questions over Wittmann's death will go on being asked, which is, given the fact that he has become something of a legendary figure in the history of modern warfare, rather fitting. In spite of all of the various claims and counter-claims, however, one thing is certain: the turret of Tiger 007 had been competely separated from the hull following an internal explosion, and there had been no survivors.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:14:19 AM EST
Whe I went to the Motor Officer course, our building was near the old Patton Museum restoration workshop.

That kettenkrad was in being restored then. Their machine shop was awesome. If they couldn't find a part through their PRE-INTERNET parts network, they'd make it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:31:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 10:53:30 AM EST by warlord]

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.


I think Germany had on a few hunderd of these bad boys, but there was like a few hundred thousand Shermans, shear overwhelming numbers of them.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:38:58 AM EST
I got to sit in the turret of 332 when I visited the museum on graduation day. The curator was in the tank, adding some stuff for display, and I asked if I could climb in and sit in the cdr's seat, and he said "Sure, come on up.". A religious experience for me...
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:24:35 AM EST
My father really was glad he never had to face a Konigstiger. As an anti-tank gunner his 75mm would not do jack to them.

He did see many Panthers and a few Tiger I's but mostly pzkw IV's.

Not a good idea to shoot at the Tigers, just tended to piss them off.

Panthers could be taken out but it still wasn't easy.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:19:08 AM EST
Uber-coolness, mein herr.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:24:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 7:28:59 AM EST by TheGunny]

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.




I thought Wittman rode a Tiger I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And he was taken out by a Typhoon!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:52:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By t-stox:

The colors on the museum Tiger II are COMPLETLY different.

Respect my authorita.


OH please! give it up. You got bitch slapped and you know it. OK?............................ Sarge?



Quite a few males are red/green colorblind. I see that you are one of them.

Any sane, rational person looking at the above pics would agree. That's just my opinion, but I'm right.

And it has already been established that I am not Sarge. Besides having a not completly favorable opinion of the Catholic Church, there is a pic somewhere of me standing next to him an a NorCal quarry shoot.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 10:02:29 AM EST
The Germans used so many different colour schemes during the war, I would be very reluctant to claim that white with pink polka-dots was not a 'real' pattern.

One of the modelling magazines used to have a regular feature called 'There's a prototype for everything.' They'd take pictures of things which you know if you put it on a model at a show, you'd have some smart-arse come up and say "That's wrong/stupid/inaccurate." The point was to show that almost anything can happen in real life.

NTM
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 10:27:01 AM EST
Great Pics.................Thanks for Sharing
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 10:51:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 10:58:22 AM EST by panzersergeant]

Originally Posted By TheGunny:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.




I thought Wittman rode a Tiger I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And he was taken out by a Typhoon!



I believe the Canadian Sherman that got him was a "Firefly" version with a "17-pounder" high-velocity maingun. Wittmann started out the war in a Stug III during the Balkan campaign and died commanding a Tiger I Mk VI in France.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 11:19:06 AM EST
The sad part is the French have the only running Tiger II in the world. But the Brits finally have a Tiger I up and running!!!!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 11:21:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:

Originally Posted By TheGunny:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.




I thought Wittman rode a Tiger I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And he was taken out by a Typhoon!



I believe the Canadian Sherman that got him was a "Firefly" version with a "17-pounder" high-velocity maingun. Wittmann started out the war in a Stug III during the Balkan campaign and died commanding a Tiger I Mk VI in France.



There is a bit of a debate what killed Wittman's Tiger I tank, his tank showed no signs of being penetrated by a gun. Signs appear consistant with a Typhoon attack but no records of a tank being killed in that area by the British, so the destruction of his tank will continue to be argued.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 11:24:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 11:57:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I rest my case

users.rcn.com/philistine/tiger2.jpg

img110.imageshack.us/img110/1599/ahr0mr.jpg

The colors on the museum Tiger II are COMPLETLY different.

Respect my authorita.



Bad news: That 'wartime' panther is actually the Munster museum's repainted example.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:08:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Originally Posted By t-stox:

The colors on the museum Tiger II are COMPLETLY different.

Respect my authorita.


OH please! give it up. You got bitch slapped and you know it. OK?............................ Sarge?



Quite a few males are red/green colorblind. I see that you are one of them.



You just don't have the decency or the sense to admit that you were wrong, do you?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:33:04 PM EST
"Ob's stuermt oder schneit,
Ob die Sonne uns lacht,
Der Tag gluehend heiss, oder eiskalt die Nacht,
Bestaubt sind die Gesichter,
Doch froh is unser Sinn, ja Unser Sinn.
Es braust unser Panzer
Im Sturmwind dahin.

I forgot the rest
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 3:20:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:
The sad part is the French have the only running Tiger II in the world. But the Brits finally have a Tiger I up and running!!!!



I suppose the French have a celebration, surrendering to it every spring...
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 3:23:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.



I believe that later evidence indicates that Wittman was killed by a rocket firing Typhoon fighter bomber. Not sure though. He was engaged by some Firefly Shermans with the 17lb high velocity gun...which was the ONLY allied gun in theater capable of penetrating the Tiger's armor from other than abouit ten meters!
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 3:57:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:
I believe that later evidence indicates that Wittman was killed by a rocket firing Typhoon fighter bomber. Not sure though. He was engaged by some Firefly Shermans with the 17lb high velocity gun...which was the ONLY allied gun in theater capable of penetrating the Tiger's armor from other than abouit ten meters!



The 76mm is actually under-rated. It could penetrate the Tiger's fronal armor from a decent distance, the two catches were (1) it wasn't very common, especially not in June 1944, and (2) was much less likely to penetrate a Panther, or worse King Tiger.

NTM
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 4:33:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
THe most feared tank in thew European Front; can take out a Sherman up to a mile with the 88mm main gun and was virtually unstoppable.

The tank that made German Ace Michael Wittman the Tank Ace of WW2; He was credited with the destruction of 138 Allied tanks and 132 anti-tank guns in less than two years before being killed by a coordinated attack by five Canadian Sherman tanks, who jumper his single Tiger tank.



I believe that later evidence indicates that Wittman was killed by a rocket firing Typhoon fighter bomber. Not sure though. He was engaged by some Firefly Shermans with the 17lb high velocity gun...which was the ONLY allied gun in theater capable of penetrating the Tiger's armor from other than abouit ten meters!



The US was using 90mm tank guns on tank destroyers, and some "special" Shermans.

They could punch some good holes with those.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:06:53 PM EST
Sweat thread!

So did Wittman have any Tiger 1's shot out from under him or did he ride through the war in the same buggy?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:21:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:

Originally Posted By LWilde:
I believe that later evidence indicates that Wittman was killed by a rocket firing Typhoon fighter bomber. Not sure though. He was engaged by some Firefly Shermans with the 17lb high velocity gun...which was the ONLY allied gun in theater capable of penetrating the Tiger's armor from other than abouit ten meters!



The 76mm is actually under-rated. It could penetrate the Tiger's fronal armor from a decent distance, the two catches were (1) it wasn't very common, especially not in June 1944, and (2) was much less likely to penetrate a Panther, or worse King Tiger.

NTM



Did a little reading on the 17 pounder, it seems to have wicked penetration with its sabot ammo but that ammo was notoriously inaccurate and to compound it, it had a tendancy to richochet off the sloped German armor. Not good considering when one wants to kill the most lethal panzers before they bring the long 75 or the two devastating 88's (Tiger I and Tiger II) to bear as there wasn't much doubt they would slice through the allied tank like a hot knife through butter with the first shot.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:47:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By byron2112:
Sweat thread!

So did Wittman have any Tiger 1's shot out from under him or did he ride through the war in the same buggy?



He and his crew lost one that I know of at Villers-Bocage from a 6pder AT gun hit .
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:56:59 PM EST
Stop talking about me, its not nice
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:59:29 PM EST

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