Does anyone foresee a war brewing? I mean in the years to come , A lot of the signs are their. We will have to take them over ......again.

Theres a book called Cauldron, that describes exactly what your talking about.  Can't remember the author though.  Very good read.  

Ever read [i]Couldron[/i] by Larry Bond?

United States and England against Germany and France. Nukes and all. Frightening.

Our troops are already there, what are you talking about!? [:D]

I know OUR troops are there, what would prevent them from starting to give steam to a movement to have use close up shop? And if we have a certain "appeaser " in the White House it could be done.

Here, read my lips:
Boooooll Sheee-ite. Got that? Or was that too fast for you?

Larry Bond is an awesome writer, and he describes some frightening scenerios.  I consider it required reading.  

Ghost

Hey Kar, you are a fucking Troll ! I did not make a statement that was due a such an insolent remark. If you are so pro German then GO THE FUCK BACK , YOU FUCKING COCKSUCKER!!!!!!!! You sir are a Loser!

OK, sobekra, I'll try to use simpler words for you next time around.

Please show me a "Pro-German" remark I made in this thread?

> I did not make a statement
> that was due a such an insolent remark

Yes, you did.
Here it is:

> A lot of the signs are their.
> We will have to take them over ......again.

Btw, there/their/they're...you know :P

Edited to add: you may want to switch to decaf for a while.
Now: [img]http://www.generaldiscussion.com/html/emoticons/realmad.gif[/img] ----> Then: [img]http://www.generaldiscussion.com/html/emoticons/wiggle.gif[/img]

I believe the  economies are too entwined for something like that to happen, sure politicians will get pissed off at each other once in a while, but thats politics, and business is business...I can just see the CEO's of the major auto manufacturers flipping out if their cars were no longer exportable into the USA.  Europe needs the USA more than we need them.  A war would be counterproductive  and it would completely nullify what we did in world war 2 regarding France.  Believe me Schroder and Chirac are no fools.

Whatever you asshole . Yes I know how to use They, Their....ect. I made a mistake . so FUCK YOU!!

Do you have issues? Have you been abused as a child? Are you abusing your children now? Maybe you are a latent homosexual? Would you like to talk about it?

I don't foresee Germany or France spending the kind of money necessary to pose a threat to the US.

yes, i believe a war with the second holy roman empire is approaching

so now we are a Gay basher.. dude you are pathetic.

Kar I haven't seen you post in awhile. Where have you been? I think there was even a post asking where you were a while back. Good to see you again.

The simple answer is yes.   Whether or not they will do it on the battlefield or through economic manipulation is the question.  Interesting that George Orwell foresaw this in "1984" with Oceania (US and GB) vs. Eurasia.  

In another context I might call this "chickens coming home to roost."  We got involved when we should not have, which facilitated much of the horror of the 20th century, and set up this difficulty we now have both in Europe and the Middle East.  The France-Germany thing has been going on since abaout 2 weeks after the death of Charlemagne, fighting and joining.  It will never change.

But, on the bright side look at it this way.  Consider the War of the Revolution.  What was the composition of about half of the forces opposing us?  Hessians - German mercenaries.  What was the composition of the Colonies?  Mostly Englishmen, with Scots and Irish and some others in very small numbers.  The conclusion is that when Englishmen fight Germans the outcome is inevitible.

Thanks for the inspiration lads. I just placed an order for "Cauldron" and "Red Phoenix" by Larry Bond. Got 'em used from Amazon - grand total of seven American Dollars for two used hardcover books in supposedly very good condition! I'm looking forward to it!

You're missing one detail about the "Hessians" here. Those soldiers have been indentured serfs of their various German dukes, kings and princes, and as such have been sold, not rented, not hired, not badgered into a coalition, SOLD to England for use in the Colonies. As such, their will to fight left somewhat to be desired. Also, should one have fled to the Rebels, the selling party (the German count or prince) was required to replenish the force. So a man deserting the British forces in America would have doomed his brother in Germany to the same fate.

Plus, don't forget good ole von Steuben, in whose honor the annual parade in New York City is held; the only parade that leaves the area cleaner than it was before.

(Not really arguing with you here, rjroberts, just filling in details.)

Going back to the actual topic of this thread, seeing how, after two World Wars, the German people have sworn not to raise weapons against their neighbors again, how Germany is involved and entwined in the world community, how about half of the German recruits called up for their 9 (yes, nine) months of military service register as conscientus objectors (only about a third of eligible youth are called up for service in first place), how German politicians prefer to risk the petty vengeance of their allies rather than the revenge of the voters and decide not to send troops into Asia, and considering the rather antique equipment of the German army, such as it is, it's pretty fucking unlikely that Germany could even occupy Czechia nowadays and only an utter moron without two braincells to rub together would see this as "a war brewing". "A lot of the signs"? Name one, sobekra.

They are completely independent of one another, and are BOTH kick-ass. [i]Red Pheonix[/i] was his first solo album (he helped Tom Clancy write [i]Red Storm Rising[/i]).

He also has an awesome novel called [i]Vortex[/i] about the return of apartheid in South Africa and the ensuing war (There's a scene there where an American Ranger battalion air-drops on top of a SA nuclear-weapon storage depot that is just unreal), and a so-so novel called [i]The Enemy Within[/i] which is about terrorism in the United States. It's terrifying, but not as good as his others.

Enjoy!

Somebody want to tell me where the Euro-weenies are going to get ICBMs? Last time I looked, we still had functional boomers trolling around. Don't think the weenies would involve nukes as there is no perceived benefit to having your country glassed over.

CW

While I don't think that a war is brewing in the near or mid term future between the US and any European country, I don't think that economic interdependence has a whole lot to do with whether or not wars break out.  

Immediately prior to WWI Germany, France, and Great Britain were each other's best trading partner.  In fact IIRC there was an award winning book published weeks before the outbreak of the war about how war was a relic of the past in Europe because of the "new" era of economic interedependence between the countries.

Most of the major wars throughout history have been fought when a rising power inspires fear in the existing power(s).  The alliance system of WWI was established to control the rising power of a united Germany coming out of the Franco-Prussian War.  The harsh terms imposed on Germany to keep that country "down" following WWI inspired Germany to restrengthen herself.

The phenomenon isn't limited to the 20th century and goes back at least as far as the Pelopponesian War between Sparta and Athens in 400 BC where Spartan and Corinthian fear of the rising power of Athens sparked a long and incredibly destructive war between the Pelopponesian and Delian leagues.

France and Germany aren't rising powers.  Future conflicts will lie between the US and a new rising power.  That could be radical Islam, an aggressive China, a rising India, but not likely a united Europe.  At least not for 50 years or so until the get their arms around what European unification is all about.

Hey Kar..... The Germans are pussies and you are an asshole. enuff said.

At least as long as the Americans and Russians are on the Brit side.  Dunkirk anyone???  

I see an economic war already starting , with these tariffs . It does m=not have to be a shooting war. The Germans and French take and have taken Billions of dollars from us , they seem to be causing many more problems and back stabbing . Look at Iraq they whine that they want contracts yet would not help with the war.Prior to WW2 we had a mean trade war going on with Japan, over steel and oil. That is enough to take countries to war. Always has been.

At least as long as the Americans and Russians are on the Brit side and the Germans are fighting a two or three front war.  Especially if they have to carry the Italians (no offense Paolo - I lived in Italy for 2 years and love it very much).  Dunkirk anyone???  

Yeah, it's like called "trade"? You get the Beemer, I get your money? Heard of that concept?

No, they are socialist pussies.

yeah..   the great Franco-German force projection capability.

they couldn't even get 15K men to 'invade' kosovo where we had 30K ready to go in 72 hrs and had to give their guys rides.  

Kar,
Thanks for the insight on the Hessian mercenaries. I have a greatgreat...great Grandfather that was a Hessian soldier during the revolutionary war. No one knows his last name as he changed it to Burgess when he switched sides. The story I heard was that he was spying for the revolutionaries and had to hide his real name for fear of reprisals from British-Tory sympathizers that remained after the war. Trying to save a brother/relative sounds more plausible to me.

The combined military force of France, Germany, and all of western Europe combined would not pose a threat to us in their current forms.  Especially with us occupying so many large bases in Europe.
One interesting aspect of this discussion is that France and Germany as we currently know them will be unrecognizable within the century.  The current population will be largely replaced by arabs and north African muslims due to the immigration of the latter and the massive imbalance of birthrates with the muslim newcomers.  When France and Germany are predominantly Muslim is when all bets are off.  Of course, by then the United States will be a majority-minority state itself, possibly with a large muslim population itself.   War averted yet again.

We have nothing to fear from Europe. The important reasons have been well delineated here. The entire world needs to fear China. They are only waiting until the time is right...

The only country I think we have anything to worry about as far as a large war is concerned is China. They have tons of people to fight and to work in the arms industry. They are also bumping up their peoples pride with the trips into space. They will be a world economic superpower in the not so distant future. Lots of cheap labor and lots of natural resources. Wars are fought over all kinds of things, trade (basicly money), land, religion, ways to run the government (communism, facism, democracy's, dictatorships and so on) and military threats real or perceived. France and Germany have no reasons to fight us or us them. Look to China and the middle east. China will need oil like we do as their economy continues to progress through a industrial revolution. With China's ever increasing economy they might feel the need for a navy to protect and expand trade world wide.

Depends...

If you mean a direct head-on war, it's not possible unless we start it... They don't have the industrial capacity and naval experience to mount an amphibious assault on the US. We could do it to them, but not vice versa.... Not likely.

HOWEVER

A proxy war (ala Vietnam, Korea, etc...) is very possible.... Something like Iraq, but the French/Germans decide that they'll oppose our operations with more than hot air... THAT is very possible...

And the Germans would make for very effective opponents, perticularly WRT armored combat. The Leo is about the only tank in service today that's CLOSE to the M1A2...

Of course, we'd have an overwhelming air advantage, but it would be the first time in years where we'd be fighting a technologically equivalent foe (Eurofighters & Tornados (X-31s) vs F-22s & F-15s)

As for the Chinese, the only thing that's keeping them from becoming the next USSR is their complete lack of a naval tradition. It's not just that they're a country of 10bn+ with a frigate navy (plus a few subs), it's that they've allways been this way, even back to the Mongols. I mean, at least the Russians had a tradition of LOOSING. The Chinese have allways been a land-bound force, and it is Korea, Russia and India who have the most to worry about.

Any US/PRC conflict will be over Taiwan, and will be a reprisal of the US vs Pact naval scenarios of the Cold War (with the chinese employing the Russian tactic of firing swarms of large, fast antiship cruise missiles from 'expendable' launch platforms). That's about as far as the Chinese will be able to project power without a dramatic overhaul of their services. Human wave armies are great for defensive fighting and over-the-border invasions (where reinforcements are allways a truck ride away), but an incredible liability when you start to deal with overseas supply lines...

Wrong. A proxy war only works if you give a shit about the reactions of other countries. If the Euro-fairies started to actively oppose us in Iraq or elswhere then either the capital buildings in Berlin/Paris/you-name-it would be flattened or we would bring the weenies to their economic knees with cessation of trade. Probably it wouldn't come to that as I suspect the general populace isn't totally enthralled with their governments. My old man just got back from a lengthy stay in France and he said the French people pretty much were ashamed of their government.

CW

DaveA, thats why I ended my post with China feeling the need for a navy. The only way they could ever challenge us on a world military stage would be to build a large new navy. And learn how to operate it. China building that navy to a point that it was a navel power would be a flash point for us. I also mentioned an increasingly industrial China needing more oil (making them closer with the middle east countries who hate us)as another flash point. I just don't see how we would allow a military build up a Germany and France to the point that we could be under any real threat. I do believe that anybody with a legitimate chance to challenge us in a meaningfull way militarally would need the middle east oil money to help build up their weapons and forces. Fighting a world war three assuming nukes arn't involved in a large way will be a super expensive undertaking way above and beyond what WWII was.

Exactly...

They also need to re-work their army and abandon human wave tactics, unless their objective is to conquer the Middle East and/or Siberia (oil sources). Even with a major-strength navy (assuming they could also 'grow' the tactics and techniques to use it. But then again, the Japanese pulled off that feat quite impressively), their army would fail them once it was cut off from the near infinite supply of reinforcements that their homeland provides, and their current tactics rely on. You can't ship enough troops fast enough to make a human wave strategy viable...

As for the Euros, French/German assistance in Iraq could have made things much worse for us... They may not be able to challenge us directly, but they are certainly able to mess with us in a cold-war style fashion (by reinforcing our enemies, like we did to the Afghanis, and the Russians did to the Vietnamese)...

And if we are aware of that happening, see my earlier post.

CW

LOL @ Kar98

Yes I did hear of that concept. You mom traded me a blow job for a smoke.