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Posted: 9/2/2005 10:40:38 AM EDT
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. It doesn't work in good times and it works worse in bad times.

Now, duh, stations are running out of gas at $3.50 per gallon or whatever. That's because supply didn't meet demand because we didn't allow the price to rise with the supply limitation. People demand more gas at $3 than at $6. So the pres comes on as says don't buy gas if you don't need it. Well, the same guy who goes after gougers, causes the supply problem and ensuing panic buying. Besides, IT WON'T WORK. Posters here are saying BS, and I sure as hell am not in a mood to trust society right now. Let me guess, some opportunist is filling cans and reselling it at a higher price. Matter of time.

Socialist BS is what it is.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:42:57 AM EDT
So....Mr. Nobel Prize For Economics....what do you propose as a solution?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:43:30 AM EDT
Let the price go up.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:45:07 AM EDT
Socialist BS? Dude, I saw prices jump almost a full dollar between breakfast and lunch today. That is wrong. Sorry, don't have to like it....

Plus on a local radio station here had a guy call in who supposedly works at a station said his boss told him to raise the price $0.20 "because we can"....

If no one here had water, and I had a case of water bottles and was charging $25 a bottle, I'd be lynched....
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:45:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
Let the price go up.



Brilliant.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:49:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 10:50:29 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Socialist BS? Dude, I saw prices jump almost a full dollar between breakfast and lunch today. That is wrong. Sorry, don't have to like it....

Plus on a local radio station here had a guy call in who supposedly works at a station said his boss told him to raise the price $0.20 "because we can"....

If no one here had water, and I had a case of water bottles and was charging $25 a bottle, I'd be lynched....



Don’t know shit about Socialism do you. You should actually know what words mean when you use them.

The government cannot control gas price why pretend they can. You want to guarantee shortages they try price caps. Been there… did not work in 1973 will not work now.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:51:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 10:52:26 AM EDT by No_Serfing]

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Socialist BS? Dude, I saw prices jump almost a full dollar between breakfast and lunch today. That is wrong. Sorry, don't have to like it....



What makes it wrong? You prefer artificially low prices to support the poor? That's socialism.



Plus on a local radio station here had a guy call in who supposedly works at a station said his boss told him to raise the price $0.20 "because we can"....



So he didn't phase it well. He meant "because we should".



If no one here had water, and I had a case of water bottles and was charging $25 a bottle, I'd be lynched....



By unprepared mobs of people used to living off the government dole.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:51:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Socialist BS? Dude, I saw prices jump almost a full dollar between breakfast and lunch today. That is wrong. Sorry, don't have to like it....

Plus on a local radio station here had a guy call in who supposedly works at a station said his boss told him to raise the price $0.20 "because we can"....

If no one here had water, and I had a case of water bottles and was charging $25 a bottle, I'd be lynched....



Don’t know shit about Socialism do you. You should actually know what words mean when you use them.

The government cannot control gas price why pretend they can. You want to guarantee shortages they try price caps.



I know plenty about socialism...I didn't say anything about capping gas prices did I? I am bitching about obvious gouging, I'm not asking the gov to come save me...try some reading comprehension...
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:53:29 AM EDT
The same people who were railing against the Domers making sheeple comments about getting the .gov to save them will be whining for the .gov to bail them out when gas hits $4/gal

Price controls never work, government intervention in the free markets never works. They just cause shortages. Do you want to go without gas?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:54:03 AM EDT
I am talking about "obvious" gouging. Don't buy the gas a the gouging price and see what happens. You will either find you didn't need it that bad or the price will come down on its own.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:55:27 AM EDT


Let the price go up.

Brilliant.



Well, he's got a point. Pay a lot for gas and you use less of it, and
it tends to get allocated to the most valuable things.

I often do a driving tour over labor day weekend. Don't think I will this year because I don't like
paying $3/gallon for gas.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:56:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Socialist BS? Dude, I saw prices jump almost a full dollar between breakfast and lunch today. That is wrong. Sorry, don't have to like it....
[\quote]

What makes it wrong? You prefer artificially low prices to support the poor? That's socialism.



Plus on a local radio station here had a guy call in who supposedly works at a station said his boss told him to raise the price $0.20 "because we can"....



So he didn't phase it well. He meant "because we should".


If no one here had water, and I had a case of water bottles and was charging $25 a bottle, I'd be lynched....



By unprepared mobs of people used to living off the government dole.



Dude, do not try to tell me that the prices rose almost $1.00 in 4 hours because of anything more than because it could...where did I say we should cap it. There isn't much we can do about it, but I don't have to sit back and like it....
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:57:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
Let the price go up.



But what about the children?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:00:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 11:00:54 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By mcgredo:


Let the price go up.

Brilliant.



Well, he's got a point. Pay a lot for gas and you use less of it, and
it tends to get allocated to the most valuable things.

I often do a driving tour over labor day weekend. Don't think I will this year because I don't like
paying $3/gallon for gas.



BINGO

This is market induced natural rationing… price goes up people use less and the supply stabilizers and there is fuel available when you need it.

For those advocating government intervention if you get what you want what you will really end up with is no fuel at all.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:05:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By mcgredo:


Let the price go up.

Brilliant.



Well, he's got a point. Pay a lot for gas and you use less of it, and
it tends to get allocated to the most valuable things.

I often do a driving tour over labor day weekend. Don't think I will this year because I don't like
paying $3/gallon for gas.



BINGO

This is market induced natural rationing… price goes up people use less and the supply stabilizers and there is fuel available when you need it.

For those advocating government intervention if you gedt what you want what you will really get is no fuel at all.



WHO THE FUCK HERE ASKED FOR GOV INTERVENTION?

/Ripley on/ Did IQ's suddenly drop while I was away?/Ripley off/

There is a difference about bitching about something and not liking it, and whining that the gov should fix it.

If some guys want to sit back and smile and be happy that it now costs you $80 to fill your tank...knock yourselves out.

Sorry, if I'm getting gang raped and there's nothing I can do about it....well, I sure as hell don't have to enjoy it....
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:06:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 11:10:50 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:25:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 11:27:12 AM EDT by No_Serfing]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
LOL, Well bud your assumption is the oil industry is a free market which it is anything but. Todays industry makes Standard Oil look like a childs toy and if it was any other product the government would step in for price fixing.

Yes there are shortages in parts of this country but there aren't in others yet their price is the same. The price of crude goes up $2 a 55 gallon drum and gas goes up $1 a gallon. Meanwhile the oil companies stocks soar like an Eagle and record profits recorded. Hell Exxon alone has more profit annually than the gross national product of South Korea.

Oh yea free market!

Free market my ass!

I watched an industry spokeman debate this issue yesterday. When asked why doesn't the oil companes just give 20% of their profits till we get out of this mess, he replied "No way!" and when threatened with controls, he replied "We''ll just quit making gas till the government crumbles from public pressure."

Arrogant shit.

Watch how fast gas goes down when alternate fuel sources start cranking up. Twice now I've watched the oil industry drive these efforts into the ground. Yes, it is a finite energy source and yes one day we will wake up with no gas and no alternative and it will be their making. Hey they won't care for they got theres.

You want to fix this thing, insist it is a free market!

Tj



Completely free market isn't a required assumption. Supply and demand still holds. A shortage is an indication of the wrong price level even if it is an illegal trust. Nobody called for the government to cap prices before Katrina. There's no shortage here because $3 is the right price. Our refinery is nearby and only distributes as far as Portland, OR. How much should gas cost? How much profit is OK for a station to make? We can't answer these questions because it's for the market to decide. Attempts to answer them arbitrarily screw it up.

That Rembrandt SOB had a monopoly. We should force him to sell his paintings at a price we can afford. Oops, out of paintings. Well, only buy one if you really need it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:32:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:

Completely free market isn't a required assumption. Supply and demand still holds. A shortage is an indication of the wrong price level even if it is an illegal trust. Nobody called for the government to cap prices before Katrina. There's no shortage here because $3 is the right price. Our refinery is nearby and only distributes as far as Portland, OR. How much should gas cost? How much profit is OK for a station to make? We can't answer these questions because it's for the market to decide. Attempts to answer them arbitrarily screw it up.

That Rembrandt SOB had a monopoly. We should force him to sell his paintings at a price we can afford. Oops, out of paintings. Well, only buy one if you really need it.



Pearls before swine.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:36:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:

Completely free market isn't a required assumption. Supply and demand still holds. A shortage is an indication of the wrong price level even if it is an illegal trust. Nobody called for the government to cap prices before Katrina. There's no shortage here because $3 is the right price. Our refinery is nearby and only distributes as far as Portland, OR. How much should gas cost? How much profit is OK for a station to make? We can't answer these questions because it's for the market to decide. Attempts to answer them arbitrarily screw it up.

That Rembrandt SOB had a monopoly. We should force him to sell his paintings at a price we can afford. Oops, out of paintings. Well, only buy one if you really need it.



Pearls before swine.



I never really considered TomJefferson swine before now. I would say it is somewhat suprising.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:38:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 11:39:27 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Torf:

I never really considered TomJefferson swine before now. I would say it is somewhat suprising.



It was a joke...
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:40:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

I watched an industry spokeman debate this issue yesterday. When asked why doesn't the oil companes just give 20% of their profits till we get out of this mess, he replied "No way!" and when threatened with controls, he replied "We''ll just quit making gas till the government crumbles from public pressure."

Arrogant shit.



Hmm. He should talk with some of the (former) air traffic controllers who struck under Reagan. See how well being a jackass works when you're facing down the United States.

The Government will sieze any company that tries that kind of crap. It is a threat to national security, and the company executives will find themselves in jail, or worse.

The oil industry has managed to get by looting the American public. If they try it with the government, there will be no private oil industry, for a while anyway.

Jim
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:40:26 AM EDT
Example of gouging that can be prosecuted:
Let's say I am in New Orleans and have just made a deal with an oil company to buy 300 gallons of fuel at $3/gal. We agree, sign a contract and the oil company sends the truck. When the truck arrives, the driver - i.e. agent for the oil company - says the company will give me the gas at $6/gal or he takes the truck elsewhere. THAT is gouging. The oil company is changing the price AFTER the fact and trying to exploit the situation. I have no choice and need the gas and he has me over a barrel.

NOW, if the gas station sign says $6/gal and I go and buy it, I am NOT being gouged, because I had the FREE WILL to buy or not buy and knew the price up front.

As the price rises, people will be less likely to buy, causing demand pressures to ease up and conserving supplies.

If the price is held artificially low, people will not conserve and supplies will be more constrained - leading to shortages and gas lines.

Prices are the most efficient and effective mechanism to get people to conserve. Way more effective than .gov mandates and rationing. 1973 and 1979-80 are fine examples of the results of price controls and rationing.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:49:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By qualityhardware:
Example of gouging that can be prosecuted:
Let's say I am in New Orleans and have just made a deal with an oil company to buy 300 gallons of fuel at $3/gal. We agree, sign a contract and the oil company sends the truck. When the truck arrives, the driver - i.e. agent for the oil company - says the company will give me the gas at $6/gal or he takes the truck elsewhere. THAT is gouging. The oil company is changing the price AFTER the fact and trying to exploit the situation. I have no choice and need the gas and he has me over a barrel.

NOW, if the gas station sign says $6/gal and I go and buy it, I am NOT being gouged, because I had the FREE WILL to buy or not buy and knew the price up front.

As the price rises, people will be less likely to buy, causing demand pressures to ease up and conserving supplies.

If the price is held artificially low, people will not conserve and supplies will be more constrained - leading to shortages and gas lines.

Prices are the most efficient and effective mechanism to get people to conserve. Way more effective than .gov mandates and rationing. 1973 and 1979-80 are fine examples of the results of price controls and rationing.



That isn't gouging, that is breach of contract.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:01:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. It doesn't work in good times and it works worse in bad times.

Now, duh, stations are running out of gas at $3.50 per gallon or whatever. That's because supply didn't meet demand because we didn't allow the price to rise with the supply limitation. People demand more gas at $3 than at $6. So the pres comes on as says don't buy gas if you don't need it. Well, the same guy who goes after gougers, causes the supply problem and ensuing panic buying. Besides, IT WON'T WORK. Posters here are saying BS, and I sure as hell am not in a mood to trust society right now. Let me guess, some opportunist is filling cans and reselling it at a higher price. Matter of time.

Socialist BS is what it is.



PM me, I'll pay for your membership. You have no idea how many times I've tried to teach these mooks how a market works.

G
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:27:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 12:28:09 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:29:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. It doesn't work in good times and it works worse in bad times.

Now, duh, stations are running out of gas at $3.50 per gallon or whatever. That's because supply didn't meet demand because we didn't allow the price to rise with the supply limitation. People demand more gas at $3 than at $6. So the pres comes on as says don't buy gas if you don't need it. Well, the same guy who goes after gougers, causes the supply problem and ensuing panic buying. Besides, IT WON'T WORK. Posters here are saying BS, and I sure as hell am not in a mood to trust society right now. Let me guess, some opportunist is filling cans and reselling it at a higher price. Matter of time.

Socialist BS is what it is.



PM me, I'll pay for your membership. You have no idea how many times I've tried to teach these mooks how a market works.

G



When you're done buttoning up his pants you can come back and join the thread once again.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:34:03 PM EDT
The looting going on at the pumps today makes the looting in New Orleans look minor league. I drive about 1,000 a week in my job. To think this sanctioned looting isn't going to have an effect on what you pay for everything is to live in the same dream world that the people of New Orleans lived in until a few days ago. While the oil companies will have a short term influx of capital it will happen at the cost of the rest of the economy and wil negatively impact their profits down the road too. Out of work people don't buy much.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:34:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. It doesn't work in good times and it works worse in bad times.

Now, duh, stations are running out of gas at $3.50 per gallon or whatever. That's because supply didn't meet demand because we didn't allow the price to rise with the supply limitation. People demand more gas at $3 than at $6. So the pres comes on as says don't buy gas if you don't need it. Well, the same guy who goes after gougers, causes the supply problem and ensuing panic buying. Besides, IT WON'T WORK. Posters here are saying BS, and I sure as hell am not in a mood to trust society right now. Let me guess, some opportunist is filling cans and reselling it at a higher price. Matter of time.

Socialist BS is what it is.



PM me, I'll pay for your membership. You have no idea how many times I've tried to teach these mooks how a market works.

G



I'm not poor, just cheap and lazy.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:45:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
Completely free market isn't a required assumption. Supply and demand still holds. A shortage is an indication of the wrong price level even if it is an illegal trust...



Only true if you try to impose an unrealistic, grade-school model that takes only "supply" and "demand" into account. Of course, in the real world there are a multitude of factors that dictate supply and/or demand independent of one another, even in a "free market," and such a simplistic model is of zero value. (Hey, you're the one who threw out the "E" word... )

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:48:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 12:50:55 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:49:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
quote]Originally Posted By No_Serfing:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
LOL, Well bud your assumption is the oil industry is a free market which it is anything but. Todays industry makes Standard Oil look like a childs toy and if it was any other product the government would step in for price fixing.

Yes there are shortages in parts of this country but there aren't in others yet their price is the same. The price of crude goes up $2 a 55 gallon drum and gas goes up $1 a gallon. Meanwhile the oil companies stocks soar like an Eagle and record profits recorded. Hell Exxon alone has more profit annually than the gross national product of South Korea.

Oh yea free market!

Free market my ass!

I watched an industry spokeman debate this issue yesterday. When asked why doesn't the oil companes just give 20% of their profits till we get out of this mess, he replied "No way!" and when threatened with controls, he replied "We''ll just quit making gas till the government crumbles from public pressure."

Arrogant shit.

Watch how fast gas goes down when alternate fuel sources start cranking up. Twice now I've watched the oil industry drive these efforts into the ground. Yes, it is a finite energy source and yes one day we will wake up with no gas and no alternative and it will be their making. Hey they won't care for they got theres.

You want to fix this thing, insist it is a free market!

Tj




Completely free market isn't a required assumption. Supply and demand still holds. A shortage is an indication of the wrong price level even if it is an illegal trust. Nobody called for the government to cap prices before Katrina. There's no shortage here because $3 is the right price. Our refinery is nearby and only distributes as far as Portland, OR. How much should gas cost? How much profit is OK for a station to make? We can't answer these questions because it's for the market to decide. Attempts to answer them arbitrarily screw it up.

That Rembrandt SOB had a monopoly. We should force him to sell his paintings at a price we can afford. Oops, out of paintings. Well, only buy one if you really need it.




Not arguing your point on supply and demand but pointing out price fixing. The cost to refine oil varies company to company as well as the cost of oil. Just because oil goes up on Monday doesn't mean the oil in a tanker already paid for on the ocean cost anymore, yet all the comapanies will match each others price to wholeseller overnight. Instead of brand A selling for less since they have more at a lower cost, they all use the same price. If I did this in my industry, I'd be in jail not for gouging but for price fixing.

This isn't economics, it's business and the regulations the rest of us have to follow by law with the exception of the oil industry who gets a special pass. This isn't a Bush thing and has been this way long before him.

There is no free market without competition.

Rembrandt didn’t have a monopoly nor was his price fixed since you could go down the street and by a VanGough. They didn’t call each other up and agree on a price either.

BTW, Trusting corporations to look after you is as dumb as trusting the government to.

Tj



What you are describing is price changing quickly due to new information. I'm not going to try defend all the actions of oil companies or corporations in general. But they have good information systems set up and anyone can see the signs on the street. We expect commodities to have the same price regardless of who is selling them when there is perfect information, because everyone would always buy from the cheaper one and the higher priced would sell none and bring down prices. You don't see it in the grocery stores, because it's too hard to keep track of who's selling bread at what price. It isn't economical to drive across town to save 20 cents. With gas, you know and it's worth it, so the prices are pretty close.

Before someone starts in on how one station is charging more, let me say that perfect "information" essentially means free communication (including movement of goods). People in Atlanta might not know there is cheaper gas five miles away, and it will cost them a buck to get there. Some of them are already adjusting their behavior out of fear of backlash and they are running out.

What is the price of gas at an empty station?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:51:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. It doesn't work in good times and it works worse in bad times.

Now, duh, stations are running out of gas at $3.50 per gallon or whatever. That's because supply didn't meet demand because we didn't allow the price to rise with the supply limitation. People demand more gas at $3 than at $6. So the pres comes on as says don't buy gas if you don't need it. Well, the same guy who goes after gougers, causes the supply problem and ensuing panic buying. Besides, IT WON'T WORK. Posters here are saying BS, and I sure as hell am not in a mood to trust society right now. Let me guess, some opportunist is filling cans and reselling it at a higher price. Matter of time.

Socialist BS is what it is.



PM me, I'll pay for your membership. You have no idea how many times I've tried to teach these mooks how a market works.

G



When you're done buttoning up his pants you can come back and join the thread once again.



You don't have to be so harsh, they're simply products of todays business society where vodoo economics are used to excuse a total lack of business ethics.

The will good soldiers right up until they turn 50 and then corporate America discards like the used resource they are then realize there is nowhere turn since they had no ethics to begin.

They can hold hands then.

Tj



WTF did I do to deserve these insults?! Suggest that economics is a reality of life? I prefer fantasy to reality too, but I don't express my fantasies on the internet.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:55:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 12:56:47 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:56:35 PM EDT
WOW!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:10:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:14:50 PM EDT
All I can tell you as a trained economist is to let prices rise or fall with the market. In the very short run, 1-3 weeks, we could see $6 gas but the problem will fix itself much, much faster if the market it allowed to do what it does best. We still today suffer because of the price controls of the mid and late 1970s. Manyh wells were abandoned and new fields in the US never developed. Many of these new fields are in areas now declared "critical" by environmentalists.

Higher prices encourage conservation. I'll be biking to work and shopping for the duration. Higher prices also encourage more supply to mcome to market. There is a huge profit motive right now for refineries to get back in business--they can make a lot of money by reopening.

Personally, I'd much rather have $5 gas an no lines or shortages than $3 gas and shortages.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:24:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 1:25:56 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
For most American gas is essential for maintaining their way of life much as electricity is or water.

You've made about the best argument I have ever read for government supply and price controls.

I'd rather see a free market but hey that's me. They are making their own bed.

Tj

Edit: Sorry that wasn't meant as an insult but a sad glimpse into reality. Welcome to the real world Neo.



Socialism don't work and that is exactly what you are advocating.

We had government control in 1973 the result was no gas for anybody. We can repeat past mistakes or learn and drill and build nuclear plants. Prices controls don’t work, never have and that will not change because some want it to.

If you want the situation to get much worse the by all means slap on government price controls. We KNOW what will happen under government control… it has happen before.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:26:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Sorry bud but no fantasy, the world economy is tied to the US dollar. The current increase in the price of fuel will ony feed inflation and a 30% increase in one month is startling and will have a crippling impact on the US economy. The dollar is already taking a hit overseas with rumours of massive dumping. Economist are predicting arilines fail and even Walmart is predicting major price increases as a result of the dollars decline, declining sales, and transportation cost.

This isn't something to shake ones head at and say good for the oil industry for the economic impact is mind boggling in potential dire consequences.

I don't think I would be to self assured I was right in the fact the oil companies can charge what they want when nobody has a job to be able to afford to buy any.

Tj



The world economy is a much more complicated issue than the price of gas at a station in Atlanta. Macroeconomics, not micro. The oil companies have incentive not to crash the world, but that time may come anyway. Macro is not understood as well as micro. Suffice it to say that economies come and go. Many are to blame, but blame is futile since economics will rule they day whether we want it to or not.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:27:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:41:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 1:49:54 PM EDT by barrysuperhawk]
Originally Posted By qualityhardware:
Example of gouging that can be prosecuted:
Let's say I am in New Orleans and have just made a deal with an oil company to buy 300 gallons of fuel at $3/gal. We agree, sign a contract and the oil company sends the truck. When the truck arrives, the driver - i.e. agent for the oil company - says the company will give me the gas at $6/gal or he takes the truck elsewhere. THAT is gouging. The oil company is changing the price AFTER the fact and trying to exploit the situation. I have no choice and need the gas and he has me over a barrel.

NOW, if the gas station sign says $6/gal and I go and buy it, I am NOT being gouged, because I had the FREE WILL to buy or not buy and knew the price up front.

[\quote]

In any other industry, it would be price gouging. If the Dairy industry were to try to raise the price of milk 50% in Illinois because of a hurricane in the gulf, the .gov would be on them like ugly on an ape, but the Oil industry is special. They have been predicting $3+ a gallon for months, and now they have the perfect excuse to do it. I find it odd that Oil industry profits go up with the price of gas instead of remaining constant - [which they would do if costs were really increasing like the supposedly are]...

After 9/11 the local Casey's stores raised their gas to $7.99 a gal for a day or two. The Illinois Att General went after 'em for price gouging, and won. I suppose if all of the rest of the stations had followed Caseys, it would have been OK?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:43:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:44:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

BTW, Trusting corporations to look after you is as dumb as trusting the government to.

Tj




Possibly, it is dumber. At least the .gov isn't out to make a profit on you...
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:46:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:49:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Bud, you need to read the post using English this time. I didn't advocate no such thing. I said argument was the best I had heard for it and distinctly said I prefer a free market.

BTW, 1973 price controls didn't work because the government didn't control the supply. There was no forced rationing or production quotas. What little oil there was the oil companies refused to refine almost as a protest to price controls. As for not working, well I am hard pressed to name a country in the world where they haven't nationalalized the petroleum industry in one form or another. We're about all the free market that is left.

Tj



The government CANNOT control the supply… we import both oil and gas. We are at the mercy of the world spot markets. What you are advocating is forcing oil companies to produce oil and refine it at below world market prices… a recipe for disaster, stagnation and NO incentive for developing resources or alternatives.

Europe de-nationalize their oil industries decades ago.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 1:51:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

BTW, Trusting corporations to look after you is as dumb as trusting the government to.

Tj




Possibly, it is dumber. At least the .gov isn't out to make a profit on you...



Thanks for the levity and the laugh. You comment is really timely as I am now figuring my quarterly taxes.



Well, I didn't say they weren't after your money, but one can hardly describe our .gov as a profimaking concern...
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 2:01:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 2:03:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 2:35:07 PM EDT

When you're done buttoning up his pants you can come back and join the thread once again.


Now I think you owe me an apology, Robo. That was uncalled for, and childish. Just because you are wrong and have made bad arguments is no reason to get angry.

G
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 2:53:24 PM EDT
Here's another gem of economic reasoning by the ARFCOM brain trust:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=382242

G
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 11:49:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
That's a very practical approach to supply and demand. Everything in a fee market tells us this should be the case and for one am banking by not buying any gas in the shorterm and conserving.

My problem isn't in the economics as I stated but my mistrust for the industry to allow the free market to flow pricing with the economics.

My mistrust is fed by record profits going on years now.



Of course they make huge profits--oil companies own and lease oil fields and own oil inventories. So when the price is high they make more. But more profits also draws more capital into the industry and leads to more oil production (and we hope more oil firms and competition).

GunLvr
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 11:59:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
There are two stupid ideas being pushed that interact with each other.

The concept of "gouging".
Asking people to show restraint and only buy gas if you really need it.

Keeping gas prices down is what caused people to buy gas they don't really need in the first place. If you had to pay $6 for gas, you would be doing that because you need it, not because you are going on vacation. I don't understand why we try to throw out free markets in a pinch. .



as long as OPEC artificialy limits to production of crude then the free market doesnt exist.
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