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Posted: 5/22/2005 1:17:02 AM EDT
You guys might get a good laugh out of this CRAP

GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY : Gun lobby threatens our very way of life
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ( Gun Grabbers Inc.)^ | May 13 | Josh Horowitz


CSGV: GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY

Op-Ed Challenges "Guns Equal Freedom" Formula

Gun lobby threatens our very way of life

The price extracted by guns is simply too high

By JOSH HORWITZ
SPECIAL TO THE REVIEW-JOURNAL

When the National Rifle Association's top lobbyist, Wayne LaPierre, addresses the crowd at "FreedomFest 2005" at the Bally's/Paris Resort in Las Vegas today, he will be preaching a message that has served his organization well: guns equal freedom.

As LaPierre puts it, "The Second Amendment is the fulcrum of freedom in our nation, because freedom and the Second Amendment are mutually interdependent. They are the 'chicken and the egg;' neither can exist without the other."

LaPierre can expect a friendly reception from the right wing activists at FreedomFest. Aggressive support for gun rights provokes none of the intramural squabbling that sometimes threatens to divide social conservatives and their libertarian allies in the GOP.

By framing the gun debate as a choice between protecting liberty and the illusion of safety, the gun lobby has painted itself as a defender of basic American values.

Too often, gun control advocates walk into the trap and concede that values like democracy and independence must be sacrificed to fight gun crime.

"At what point will Americans agree that the price exacted by guns -- the gun lobby's 'price of freedom' -- is simply too high?" asks Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center.

This formulation is not smart politics, because Americans rightly treasure freedom. More importantly, it fails to hold LaPierre and the gun lobby accountable for a philosophy that is at odds with freedom and the institutions that support it.

The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system.

David Kopel, a leading gun rights theorist, acknowledges the potential tension between an expansive right of self defense like the one embodied in the new Florida statute and the rule of law, but dismisses the concern out of hand, arguing that "people's taking the law into their own hands has always been a core principle of the American legal system, and the American attitude toward guns is simply one manifestation of that principle."

This warped conception of popular sovereignty is at the root of the most egregious anti- democratic proposition advanced by the gun lobby: that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government.

Kopel has called guns "the tools of political dissent," and LaPierre wrote in 1994 that "the people have a right, must have a right, to take whatever measures necessary, including force, to abolish oppressive government."

As famed legal scholar Roscoe Pound observed, however, "A legal right of the citizen to wage war on the government is something that cannot be admitted. ... [because] bearing arms today is a very different thing from what it was in the days of the embattled farmers who withstood the British in 1775. In the urban industrial society of today a general right to bear arms so as to be able to resist oppression by the Government would mean that gangs could defeat the whole Bill of Rights."

The standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco -- often cited as proof that the government can and does abuse its power -- illustrate why armed resistance is a dead end. Randy Weaver and David Koresh may have had good reasons to distrust the government, but they had no right to use private arsenals to keep the police at bay. Our system includes democratic safeguards, such as juries, that do not rely on the private force of arms.

After the Oklahoma City bombing, the gun lobby toned down its rhetoric, casting an armed citizenry as a deterrent to oppression rather than a potential rebel force against a democratic government. "The Second Amendment is America's first freedom because it is the one right that protects all the others," LaPierre says.

This argument sounds reasonable but is no different in substance that what gun rights absolutists were saying before Oklahoma City. If they believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy.

When LaPierre talks about guns and freedom, he wraps himself in a flag that the NRA is simultaneously ripping to shreds. Protecting vigilantes from criminal prosecution and urging citizens to stockpile weapons for a showdown with the government are more than just threats to public safety -- they are threats to our democracy and our way of life.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:21:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:24:03 AM EDT
I don't know why I even waste time reading these articles.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:30:14 AM EDT
On the bright side - the libs are weakkneed idiots, and we're the ones with the guns....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:39:30 AM EDT
When your enemy begins to drool out lame shit like that.......it is a good sign.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:39:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 1:48:33 AM EDT by leelaw]
So.. self-defense in Florida = good.

but self defense with firearms in Florida = vigilantism.



ETA: if I was as good as math as these guys are, I'd be repeating the 2nd grade.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:40:04 AM EDT
Whered the article come from?
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 2:03:23 AM EDT
It's obvious Josh has never read the Declaration of Independence.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 2:21:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEATHDEALER:
You guys might get a good laugh out of this CRAP

GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY : Gun lobby threatens our very way of life
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ( Gun Grabbers Inc.)^ | May 13 | Josh Horowitz

This warped conception of popular sovereignty is at the root of the most egregious anti- democratic proposition advanced by the gun lobby: that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yup, He's right. Hisory has shown us so many times how unarmed people are "protected" by thier government.
Guns in the hands of the people is anti-democratic..IE totalitarian
Guns only in the hands of the government is how the people are free

This is so dopey I can't think of a single pithy thing to tie it up so...
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 2:49:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:02:26 AM EDT
Good lord I hate it when the NRA gets it wrong. Perhaps it is just the bias of the reporter. To protect ourselves against tyranny is NOT the reason WHY we have a right to keep and bear arms, it is only the reason they are for. Ugh.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:04:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 3:13:52 AM EDT by COZ]
Such ignorant drivel coming from a JEW no less. That is just amazing. All he has to do is look back into his own cultures history. The stupid bastard might see that a few "GUNS" saved a lot of Jews from death by Hitlers (Germanys Government) evil genocide.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:11:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 3:13:11 AM EDT by COZ]

Originally Posted By DEATHDEALER:

The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system.



Well shit, I never knew it was so easy, Why didn't anybody think of that earlier?.............................Just walk away... If a robber comes in your home...............just walk away..........sign your deed over to him first so you dont have to come back, give the bad guy everything you own and..........just walk away.

That statement is so unbeleivably ignorant i'm speechless..damn
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:29:42 AM EDT
The only thing guns threaten are rediculous gestapo mindsets like feinstein and co.

And the occasional criminal.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:33:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:
On the bright side - the libs are weakkneed idiots, and we're the ones with the guns....



- georgestrings



...the meek shall inherit the earth

So what... they're a bunch of meeks... we'll just take it back!
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:37:43 AM EDT
Liberals live by "emotion", not facts. Bags
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:44:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:49:58 AM EDT
If you understand the corrupible nature of man, then it becomes apparent why the 2nd is so important.

Never give up this right and no compromises either!
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:16:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:

Originally Posted By DEATHDEALER:

The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system.



Well shit, I never knew it was so easy, Why didn't anybody think of that earlier?.............................Just walk away... If a robber comes in your home...............just walk away..........sign your deed over to him first so you dont have to come back, give the bad guy everything you own and..........just walk away.

That statement is so unbeleivably ignorant i'm speechless..damn



Except the bill wasn't created to specifically cover the use of deadly force in a residence. That was already allowed under the law. Other than Massachusetts a few years ago, and even that state has since changed their laws, laws regarding deadly force to protect onesself has not required that you flee your home before using it.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:17:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are kidding right? It is not cool in liberal circles to read ANY founding documents, except a couple of Bill of Rights amendments. They LOVE case law however.


And you ignore case law at your own peril.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:40:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are kidding right? It is not cool in liberal circles to read ANY founding documents, except a couple of Bill of Rights amendments. They LOVE case law however.


And you ignore case law at your own peril.



You never ignore a weapon of the enemy. If you can turn it against him, so much the better.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:46:37 AM EDT
"they" are right: the gun culture does threaten "their" (radical liberal) way of life. armed citizens threaten the "the liberal elites" from ruling us as their serfs...
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:50:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are kidding right? It is not cool in liberal circles to read ANY founding documents, except a couple of Bill of Rights amendments. They LOVE case law however.


And you ignore case law at your own peril.



You never ignore a weapon of the enemy. If you can turn it against him, so much the better.


I wouldn't call case law a weapon of the enemy. It is a function of our system of law.Nor would I even call someone who holds a different opinion "the enemy" simply for holding their opinion. Demonizing people of different opinions is simply a tactic of saying " I am in the right here and its THEY who are wrong and must be evil". Its a juvenile tactic.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 5:55:27 AM EDT
Josh Horowitz is a simpering fuckstick of the first magnatude.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:07:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By smokycity:
It's obvious Josh has never read the Declaration of Independence.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

He's read it. You can bet your last dollar with your dying breath he's read it.
He and Sarah and the rest of the bunch is betting that the audience who reads their drivel is unacquainted with the DofI and what it means.




BINGO
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:07:35 AM EDT
GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY : Gun lobby threatens our very way of life
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ( Gun Grabbers Inc.)^ | May 13 | Josh Horowitz


CSGV: GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY

Op-Ed Challenges "Guns Equal Freedom" Formula

Gun lobby threatens our very way of life

The price extracted by guns is simply too high

By JOSH HORWITZ
SPECIAL TO THE REVIEW-JOURNAL

When the National Rifle Association's top lobbyist, Blah, Blah, blah................................................
..........................................
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:12:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:
Such ignorant drivel coming from a JEW no less. That is just amazing. All he has to do is look back into his own cultures history. The stupid bastard might see that a few "GUNS" saved a lot of Jews from death by Hitlers (Germanys Government) evil genocide.



+1

The USA didn't have 6 million people hauled in labor camps, starved and gassed. I bet Josh is OK with the rest of his family in Israel walking around with an Uzi. I'm sure he would have a "but thats different" excuse for them. Not a Jew bashing at all here- I just fail to understand the number of them here (USA) that are so anti gun after what happened to their race only about 60 years ago. There are still about a billion people on earth that worship a book that calls for the "Jew to wiped from the land". I would really, really Pro gun if I was Jewish. And armed to the teeth.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:22:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 6:55:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 7:45:31 AM EDT
The gunners threaten their way of life by preventing the communists from confiscating my money for their ever increasing appetite for money for more of their social experiments.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 7:49:02 AM EDT
The Violence Prevention Center has not stopped the stabbings, beating, assaults or verbal abuse that goes on daily and yet they believe violence will go down if the guns disappeared?
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:02:27 AM EDT
Tagged for later
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:25:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:
Such ignorant drivel coming from a JEW no less. That is just amazing. All he has to do is look back into his own cultures history. The stupid bastard might see that a few "GUNS" saved a lot of Jews from death by Hitlers (Germanys Government) evil genocide.



if you support gun control the holocaust never happened... even if your a jew.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:43:04 AM EDT
Funny how he uses a radical left-wing organization's agenda, to try to "expose" the NRA as a radical right-wing organization.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:46:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are kidding right? It is not cool in liberal circles to read ANY founding documents, except a couple of Bill of Rights amendments. They LOVE case law however.


And you ignore case law at your own peril.



You never ignore a weapon of the enemy. If you can turn it against him, so much the better.


I wouldn't call case law a weapon of the enemy. It is a function of our system of law.Nor would I even call someone who holds a different opinion "the enemy" simply for holding their opinion. Demonizing people of different opinions is simply a tactic of saying " I am in the right here and its THEY who are wrong and must be evil". Its a juvenile tactic.



You're a moral relativist. I've seen it in your other posts. I have news for you, my friend - there's indeed a difference between right and wrong. One thing is indeed better than another.

Chew on that for a while.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:00:35 AM EDT
he's right in a way that "gun culture threatens democracy".

the lib shitdicks try to use democracy and freedom interchangeably (and they do this purposely) when they do not mean anywhere the same thing.

democracy is just majority rule, the group over the individual.

but when people are armed, the individual still has some power.

America is not a democracy.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:03:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:11:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JeffersonDarcy:
he's right in a way that "gun culture threatens democracy".

the lib shitdicks try to use democracy and freedom interchangeably (and they do this purposely) when they do not mean anywhere the same thing.

democracy is just majority rule, the group over the individual.

but when people are armed, the individual still has some power.

America is not a democracy.




Oh oh but my english teacher didn't say that!! She also said that John Kerry would never take away our guns .

Isnt the US a Democratic Republic or something to that nature?
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:21:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 9:21:25 AM EDT by distributor_of_pain]
He wouldn't silly John Kerry has said, on many occasions, that he supports "hunter's rights".

Because that's what the second ammendment is for...to be able to put meat on the dinner table more efficiently.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:22:24 AM EDT

Isnt the US a Democratic Republic or something to that nature?


We're a Constitution-based federal republic.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:39:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:

Originally Posted By JeffersonDarcy:
he's right in a way that "gun culture threatens democracy".

the lib shitdicks try to use democracy and freedom interchangeably (and they do this purposely) when they do not mean anywhere the same thing.

democracy is just majority rule, the group over the individual.

but when people are armed, the individual still has some power.

America is not a democracy.




Oh oh but my english teacher didn't say that!! She also said that John Kerry would never take away our guns .

Isnt the US a Democratic Republic or something to that nature?

Didn't you participate in a thread a few months ago which profiled that we are not and cannot be a Democratic Republic?



Nope. I just know that we arent a Democracy. We are reading the book Animal Farm (i'm sure many of you have heard of it) and for an example of democracy she told us to write down USA....I didn't do it, cause I know it isnt true. She says some dumb stuff. I'm really not sure what she is (liberal/ conservative...I think shes leaning to the left).
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 11:12:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 11:37:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
We're a Republic.



+1 Yup...a Federal Republic
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:19:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 12:24:45 PM EDT by Wobisich]
Idiocy is the greatest threat to our freedoms. Taking weaponry away from citizens on a whole only serves to empower the state to take away more freedoms, since the peoples effective means of defense/resistance is gone.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:55:10 PM EDT
I'd like to thank Josh Horowitz for his contribution to the debate on this issue.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:18:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 1:19:52 PM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:

Originally Posted By JeffersonDarcy:
he's right in a way that "gun culture threatens democracy".

the lib shitdicks try to use democracy and freedom interchangeably (and they do this purposely) when they do not mean anywhere the same thing.

democracy is just majority rule, the group over the individual.

but when people are armed, the individual still has some power.

America is not a democracy.




Oh oh but my english teacher didn't say that!! She also said that John Kerry would never take away our guns .

Isnt the US a Democratic Republic or something to that nature?

Didn't you participate in a thread a few months ago which profiled that we are not and cannot be a Democratic Republic?



Nope. I just know that we arent a Democracy. We are reading the book Animal Farm (i'm sure many of you have heard of it) and for an example of democracy she told us to write down USA....I didn't do it, cause I know it isnt true. She says some dumb stuff. I'm really not sure what she is (liberal/ conservative...I think shes leaning to the left).

We're a Republic.



Actually, we are a constitutionally limited rebulic. China is a republic, so was the Soviet Union and technically Iraq was a republic under Sadaam Hussein (the people did "vote" to elect their leaders, and the head of state was not a monarch).

The difference is that our republic has a constitution that limits the power of the central government from infringing on certain rights, even in cases where the majority favors limiting those rights. One of these rights is the right to keep and bear arms.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:56:56 PM EDT
The only thing the 'gun culture' threatens is the World-Socialsist designs on or freedoms.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 2:26:19 PM EDT
Seems to me this country BECAME a democracy because of our "Gun Culture" when we overthrew the yoke of British Tyranny
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:34:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 3:49:22 PM EDT
Correction: "Gun Owners threaten our idiology of Socialism, and we can't have that! Who do they think they are being individuals and expecting to remain distinct individuals, why it's contrary to the "Common good"(communism)! And still expecting Freedom and self sufficiency in this day and age!!! Those bastards!!!!"- What they really meant!!
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