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Posted: 9/23/2005 3:21:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 3:22:30 PM EDT by JH225]
I am really trying to figure out why it is that American citizens have not yet come to realize just how much of an assfucking they are getting with the current gasoline situation. Since when did the weather have any MAJOR impact of how much gas costs? "Oh, bad storm, lets raise the gas prices to record levels." WTF?

The average price of a gallon of gas before all of this bullshit started was WELL under $2 a gallon.

Then Katrina hit the US, and someone, somewhere said " You know, we have the oil, those stupid fucking Americans need it more than anything else, and we can charge whatever we damn well please."

So they raised the prices to record figures for crude oil.

Refineries in turn, raised their prices to record figures, and the the local dealers decided not only can they raise their prices, but they could raise them to insane prices and "those stupid fucking Americans" will still buy it.

In the last week or so, prices have come down about .30 a gallon. Big frickin' deal. Now the dealers are charging $2.99 for regular, "those stupid fucking Americans" think they are getting a bargain, and we can keep our prices at this level forever.

Just one problem........The latest storm is coming, people in the know are predicting $5 a gallon, and here we go again, only this time, it will be absolutely insane.

Huge gas prices lead to no vacations, tourism, going out to eat, boating or other recreational events, increased school taxes (to put gas in buses), airfare going through the roof, food prices going through the roof (you do realize trucks still bring most foods to market, right?), home heating oil will cost $4 a gallon over the winter, so people will freeze to death who can't buy it, and the list goes on and on.

Now, I am all for what the POTUS intentions were at the beginning of the Iraq situation, but he is REALLY starting to piss me off with the lack of ANY intervention on the raping these gas companies are giving US citizens. Oh, I forgot....his family and himself OWN oil refineries, so they are making tons of money off of this crisis.

WHEN IS AMERICA GOING TO SAY "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" AND .GOV BETTER DAMN WELL DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:24:22 PM EDT
Maybe $4.50-$5/gal like our European brothers are paying after taxes. And still they don't rebel amazing stuff.

We've been led, after 5 generations, to think there is no cost to one person driving a gas-fueled vehicle around like his personal gondola.

If I wasn't a citizen-motorist, I'd be shooting those who were for wasting MY tax dollars.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:24:29 PM EDT
If .gov does "something" about it, we'll be in worse shape.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:26:54 PM EDT
Maybe the government can legislate more oil into existence. Hmmm. Well, no need to worry, the market will come up with alternatives any minute now that will save your vacation and tax money. We're going to go on running our vehicles on cheap gas (or its alternative) forever and ever, and your children will do so as well.

No big deal.

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:27:28 PM EDT
We have no choices at this point...other than not driving anywhere. Frankly, with technology the way it is, the vast majority can telecommute and never leave their homes.

HH
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:32:48 PM EDT
We better just hope the refineries are still standing after this storm, or there will not be any gas.

Yeah the prices suck, but it could be a hellava lot worse.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:34:55 PM EDT

airfare going through the roof



Actually airfares have been going down due to discount carriers. High fuel prices are only pushing already on the edge traditional carriers into bankruptsy.

According to Fobes magazine a few years ago it costed an average of $400 to go cross country now it costs about $200 Air travel has simply become more like a greyhound bus and less like a Limo Service.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCommissioner:
If .gov does "something" about it, we'll be in worse shape.


Correct. Once the cost of gasoline goes high enough to make the "next technology" economically feasible, it will be produced. As long as gas was super cheap, there was no reason to really invest in different technologies. It's amazing to think that people expect the governement to "do something about" global supply and demand.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:36:59 PM EDT
The government "did something" in the 70's. That
worked out well, didn't it?

30% of all of the refining capability of the United
States is now either damaged, about to be damaged,
or running at reduced capacity. Just what do you
expect the price to do?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:37:29 PM EDT
When will supposed 'conservatives' stop bitching about free-market economies? Calling for goverment intervention in the marketplace is about as unconservative as it gets.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:37:59 PM EDT
It's gonna take several things.

Drilling for out own crude oil. (which means telling the so-called enviromentalists/old media & liberal democracts to shove it.

Building more refineries (which means telling the so-called enviromentalists/old media & liberal democracts to shove it)

Building more nuclear power plants (which means telling the so-called enviromentalists/old media & liberal democracts to shove it)

Notice a pattern?

Republicans might consider trying to make these things happen, but I guess they don't plan on winning in '06 or '08.

There's probably more that can cause gas prices to drop down to what they supposed to, but that's all I can think of right now.

Scott


Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:42:28 PM EDT
This "stupid fucking American" has to get to work every day, so the petroleum industry has me by the shorthairs. Unfortunately my office lacks sufficient corral and paddock space, so riding a horse to work is out. I'd buy a motorcycle, but spending a few thousand to save a few bucks at the pump doesn't make sound fiscal sense either.

People crying for the gov to step in should be very fucking careful about what they wish for

Please cite a single example of any industry that has been regulated into fiscal responsibility.

<crickets>
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:42:33 PM EDT
Whine, whine, whine.
Don't buy their damn gasoline. I'm serious.
It is what the market will bear, plain and simple.

Ain't capitalism great!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:49:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 3:50:14 PM EDT by BigB1129]
$5-$6

How much money have oil companies made this year?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:51:29 PM EDT
I'm actually not that sad gas prices are going up.

Driving is a privilege, not a right!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:52:38 PM EDT
Buy it, or don't buy it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:55:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 3:55:39 PM EDT by elvisp]

Originally Posted By BigB1129:
$5-$6

How much money have oil companies made this year?


They are in business to make money. Gasoline is not a gift from God. How much money did Bill Gates make? How much is your electric bill?

­

Why do people whine so much?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
When will supposed 'conservatives' stop bitching about free-market economies? Calling for goverment intervention in the marketplace is about as unconservative as it gets.



Thats a Big +1.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:00:25 PM EDT
Demonstrating an excellent understanding of how the system works...

The sad thing is that this is all the libs fault. I know it usually is, but here in particular.

Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand. Thanks to being unable due to environmental laws to access most of the oil within this country, we are highly dependant on oil coming into our ports from overseas. With storm damage already shutting down one of our two largest oil ports and a massive storm threatening to shut down completely the second, gas and oil suppliers are afraid they are not going to have enough supply to meet demands. If the gas can't come into port (and ports require people to work them: Houston and NOLA are evacuated) then they run out. And if they run out, we're all screwed. So... you have two choices: raise the price of oil to lower the demand or run out of supply. I'd rather pay higher prices and at least be able to get gas. The alternative is what we had in the 70s, when the government foolishly capped gas prices, creating a demand that exceeded the supply. The result was lower prices, but massive lines and no gas. If we just quit whining and let the system work we'll get the best possible outcome to a crappy situation.

In the long run we need to tell the libs and environmentalists to take a flying leap. They may not allow us to build new refineries because they're ugly and environmental bad, but our current refineries are at the peak of their capacity already. When a storm shuts a few down, the others can't work any faster because they're already peaked. So we can't even refine the oil we already have. We need new refineries and access to the ANWR and mountain state oil fields if we're going to be more resilient to these shocks in the future. Also so we can tell the middle east to piss off.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:01:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:01:35 PM EDT by napalm]
So once Americans stand up and say 'enough is enough' exactly what the heck is supposed to happen then?

Is oil supposed to rain from the heavens?

Benign government will just make a law to fix it, right?

The CEOs of all the oil companies will give up their multi-million dollar salaries and pass the savings on to you, the disgruntled customer?




Yeah, it sucks. The price of fuel goes up, everything goes up. What's your solution?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:02:33 PM EDT
I hope you and every other retard that wants government to solve market problems gets .gov shoved so far up your ass you'll be shitting copies of "The Wealth of Nations" for weeks.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:02:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:04:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
When will supposed 'conservatives' stop bitching about free-market economies? Calling for goverment intervention in the marketplace is about as unconservative as it gets.



Most people are simply fair weather fans, of any political ideas. They're all for something, until it might actually be bad for them. Then its OH MY GOD HOW COULD WE LET THIS HAPPEN THE HUMANITY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:04:55 PM EDT
Yeah, lets ask the government to "do something."

And what exactly would they do? Nuke China to reduce demand for oil? Put a price cap on gasoline so I have to waste 3 hours a week in line to buy gas because of an artificial supply/demand gap? Yeah, that's REAL efficient...

Folks, there IS NO GOVERNMENT SOLUTION THAT WOULDN'T BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM. If you don't understand microeconomic theory, then just shut up and stop posting. The best thing they can do is clear the red tape to build more refineries.

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:08:11 PM EDT
Wow, I can't believe most of the replies thusfar.

So what most of you are saying is that "free market economy" is just a fact of life and the owners of the product whether it be gas or whatever can charge whatever they want for anything knowing full well that citizens will have to bear the burden of their enourmous profits?

I am all for capitalism, but gasoline is a staple for most people in this country. If you guys are perfectly OK with paying $5,6,7 a gallon, there is something terribly wrong in this country.

Housing, OK..don't buy such a big house.

Cars...OK, don't buy such an expensive car.

But food, gas, home heating oil are needed by 99.9% of the US population. The fact that people are willing to pay whatever it costs because the owners of petroleum feel like ripping us off is just frigging amazing.

Maybe .Gov can't or shouldn't step in, but we as citizens sure don't have to roll over for these assholes.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:08:52 PM EDT
they'll say enough is enough when they actually do something about it instead of bitching about it. They can walk, ride a bike, take the bus, buy a hybrid, carpool.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:11:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:24:45 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By TheCommissioner:
If .gov does "something" about it, we'll be in worse shape.



+1
Welcome to a free market society bud.
Supply is down and demand is up.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:12:00 PM EDT
Why not create a government run Petroleum Company just like the how the US Postal Service is run? A company that can stand on its own and make its own money enough to stay afloat while competing with private companies.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:14:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:
Maybe .Gov can't or shouldn't step in, but we as citizens sure don't have to roll over for these assholes.



Why not? They don't have to roll over for us either.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:16:27 PM EDT
Remember that gas in the US is STILL cheap compared to most of the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:17:43 PM EDT
I bet you a major difference is going to happen in our favor by election year. Its the only way Republicans are going to re-win the executive.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:19:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
When will supposed 'conservatives' stop bitching about free-market economies? Calling for goverment intervention in the marketplace is about as unconservative as it gets.



Price fixing by a handful of companies is worst. Thats almost communist.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:20:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:22:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:
Wow, I can't believe most of the replies thusfar.



I can't believe yours...


Originally Posted By JH225:
So what most of you are saying is that "free market economy" is just a fact of life and the owners of the product whether it be gas or whatever can charge whatever they want for anything knowing full well that citizens will have to bear the burden of their enourmous profits?



Private property rights are funny like that.

Don't like it, open a gas station and charge $0.01 over
cost. Until then, I can charge whatever I want for my
property. If you keep buying it, don't come crying to me.


Originally Posted By JH225:
I am all for capitalism,



I doubt that...


Originally Posted By JH225:
but gasoline is a staple for most people in this country. If you guys are perfectly OK with paying $5,6,7 a gallon, there is something terribly wrong in this country.



Oo. Oo. I know. I know. Maybe the "something terribly
wrong" is that the average citizen (and ARFCOM poster)
knows nothing of basic economic theory.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:24:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:26:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Why not create a government run Petroleum Company just like the how the US Postal Service is run?



Do you really think that the US Postal service pays for
itself?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:26:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 37Victor:
Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand.


WRONG. There is more oil on the market that can be refined right now, reducing the demand for oil. Why then are oil prices still going up? That's not "supply and demand". Explain that one, Big Oil apologists!

Futhermore, where's the pumping of oil shale? It is economically feasable at $35/ barrel, so why isn't Big Oil lining up to do it? I mean they have made record profits for the past few years, so it's not like "it's not profitable" is an excuse.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:28:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:
I am all for capitalism,



No you're not or you wouldn't have even started this thread. You don't ask for solutions or present one. We are all just supposed to whine in harmony and the politiicans will make it all better. "Here is a bandaid for your booboo."

As others have stated, gov't involvement will create a worse situation.

Like I said, don't like it, don't buy it. That would solve the entire problem now wouldn't it?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:32:54 PM EDT
The .gov should create something along the lines of a 'Petroleum Energy Source Price-Fixing Agency.' It can grow into another huge bureaucracy that costs a fortune to finance. Fuel prices will require enormous surcharges to pay for the Agency workers who are keeping prices at a controlled price -- resulting in prices higher than they were before.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:33:04 PM EDT
.gov should just raise the CAFE standards...
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:34:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:39:00 PM EDT by crazyquik]

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By 37Victor:
Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand.


WRONG. There is more oil on the market that can be refined right now, reducing the demand for oil. Why then are oil prices still going up? That's not "supply and demand". Explain that one, Big Oil apologists!

Futhermore, where's the pumping of oil shale? It is economically feasable at $35/ barrel, so why isn't Big Oil lining up to do it? I mean they have made record profits for the past few years, so it's not like "it's not profitable" is an excuse.



There was an energy crisis in 1973. In the mid-late 70s many in the oil industry made stacks of money. Also, people switched to smaller import cars, more refineries were built, and more nuclear plants. Thru the 80s and 90s, oil was more or less flat and everything else went up. Now its going up again. 6 or 7 years ago when gas was less than $1 a gallon, were we complaining about the free market and feeling pity for the poor oil companies? If the cycle pans out, we will now build new refineries (Congress may look at a refinery bill), there are 2 sites with possibly plans for a nuke but that wont be done untill 2015ish, and people will probably sell thier big SUVs. Perhaps the way cities are planned will change too.

Today on CNBC a guy said that in 1981 or so, the average consumer spent 7% of thier income on gas for thier car, heating oil for thier house, electricity, etc. Now we spend about 5%, so he thinks it can go up for a while without crashing the economy, at least untill we're spending 7% or so.

If you think gas is high now wait till you see what they're going to pay in the northeast for natural gas and heating oil this winter.

ETA: If you dont like it, tough tits. Move to Europe were the socialist govt will try and insulate you from the free market real world...but you'll be paying $8 a gallon for gas there. Or, stay here and buy shares in oil stocks to offset what you're paying at the pump.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:34:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:

WHEN IS AMERICA GOING TO SAY "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" AND .GOV BETTER DAMN WELL DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?




Always refreshing to see Republican "We're for capitalism and business" people screaming like fucking Democrats for the .gov to save them.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:35:35 PM EDT
So, you're calling for Government price controls on gas?



Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:36:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By 37Victor:
Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand.


WRONG. There is more oil on the market that can be refined right now, reducing the demand for oil. Why then are oil prices still going up? That's not "supply and demand". Explain that one, Big Oil apologists!

Futhermore, where's the pumping of oil shale? It is economically feasable at $35/ barrel, so why isn't Big Oil lining up to do it? I mean they have made record profits for the past few years, so it's not like "it's not profitable" is an excuse.



Oh please; I am not a "Big Oil apologist". There is not enough refinery capacity in this country to keep up with the demand. Even on a normal day we're running at virtually absolute capacity. When a large number of refineries are damaged or shut down, what do you think happens? When oil stops coming into the ports, what do you think happens? The industry realizes that there is a serious threat of their being more demand than there will be supply in the future, so they're raising prices. They may not be Nostradamus, but anyone can see that if Houston gets nailed we're gonna have way too little oil for a while.

And I already told you the problem with the oil shale pumping: environmental laws and lawsuits. They can't get in there to pump it, either from the shale or from the 7 to 8 billion barrels in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge. Same reason we have the refinery problem, there has been a freeze on refinery construction for decades. If you want to blame someone, don't blame the capitalists, this is the socialist libs fault. Our country has had it's hands tied behind it's back by the liberals and now this storm is kicking the shit out of us.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:37:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By 37Victor:
Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand.


WRONG. There is more oil on the market that can be refined right now, reducing the demand for oil. Why then are oil prices still going up? That's not "supply and demand". Explain that one, Big Oil apologists!



You can rain oil on the US, we aren't going to fucking refine it any quicker.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:38:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:38:25 PM EDT by CZ75_9MM]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Why not create a government run Petroleum Company just like the how the US Postal Service is run?



Do you really think that the US Postal service pays for
itself?




The USPS claims to have operated "in a businesslike manner without taxpayer support" since it became a government-owned corporation on July 1, 1971 following the passage of the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970. It does, however, receive compensation from taxpayer funds for certain services that it is mandated to provide for free or at a discount, including free mail for the blind, military mail, nonprofit mail and overseas ballots.

The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 abolished the United States Post Office Department, a part of the cabinet, and created the United States Postal Service, a corporation with an official monopoly on the delivery of mail in the United States.

this is taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Postal_Service
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:39:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Why not create a government run Petroleum Company just like the how the US Postal Service is run?



Do you really think that the US Postal service pays for
itself?




The USPS claims to have operated "in a businesslike manner without taxpayer support" since it became a government-owned corporation on July 1, 1971 following the passage of the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970. It does, however, receive compensation from taxpayer funds for certain services that it is mandated to provide for free or at a discount, including free mail for the blind, military mail, nonprofit mail and overseas ballots.

The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 abolished the United States Post Office Department, a part of the cabinet, and created the United States Postal Service, a corporation with an official monopoly on the delivery of mail in the United States.

this is taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Postal_Service



I still wouldn't exactly call the USPS a resounding success.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:40:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By go3:

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By 37Victor:
Gas prices are rising because they are based on supply and demand.


WRONG. There is more oil on the market that can be refined right now, reducing the demand for oil. Why then are oil prices still going up? That's not "supply and demand". Explain that one, Big Oil apologists!



You can rain oil on the US, we aren't going to fucking refine it any quicker.



Kroagan: go sit in the corner and think about what you just said.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:41:14 PM EDT
Some would say .gov IS the problem.

So many regulations, so many formulas.

Let the oil trade be ran by a true free market and see what happens.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:41:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:

Huge gas prices lead to no vacations, tourism, going out to eat, boating or other recreational events, increased school taxes (to put gas in buses), airfare going through the roof, food prices going through the roof (you do realize trucks still bring most foods to market, right?), home heating oil will cost $4 a gallon over the winter, so people will freeze to death who can't buy it, and the list goes on and on.




CMIIW, but isn't that "doing something about it"?

Seriously, changes don't happen over night (relatively inelastic demand), but people will start buying smaller cars, trying to substitute fuels (i.e. like what has happened before, Electric plants that were planned for natural gas have been converted to coal), traveling less and spending less on goods and services that were inflated by the increase in the cost of oil.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:42:22 PM EDT
The problem is it takes too long to drill for oil, start the pump, lay the pipeline, build the refinery and then pump the refined product into te distribution pipeline whenever there is a slight increase in demand or a small shortage of refinery/well production.

Don't like how expensive gas is? Then don't use it to wash the sand out of your mangina. Use water...

All of us have grown up expecting fuel to be a given. Guess what, it isn't.
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