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Posted: 6/7/2002 8:24:20 AM EST
[pissed] [url]http://www.indystar.com/article.php?bullet06.html[/url] and my response to the reporter: Mr. Gelarden, Regarding your coverage of this event, there are numerous inaccuracies that I feel compelled to point out. Black Talon cartridges were VOLUNTARILY withdrawn from the open market by Winchester in 1994. There is not, nor has there ever been, a law specifically addressing them at either the state or Federal level. There are many expert local sources that could have given you this information, and instead of using them you used a gentleman whose establishments are shunned by the truly knowledgeable gun owning community. Mr. Davis' technical firearms expertise is slim to nonexistent, as is his grasp of the legal technicalities surrounding firearms. Black Talon cartridges are not 'armor-piercing' in any way, shape, or form, nor are they 'armor-piercing' as defined by Indiana Code - IC 35-47-5-11 Sec. 11. (a) As used in this section, "armor-piercing handgun ammunition" means a cartridge that: (1) can be fired in a handgun; and (2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic. (b) A person who knowingly or intentionally: (1) manufactures; (2) possesses; (3) transfers possession of; or (4) offers to transfer possession of; armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony. (c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns. (d) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells armor-piercing handgun ammunition to a law enforcement agency. As added by P.L.332-1983, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.327-1987, SEC.2. As you can see, there is no basis for any of the firearms-related charges in this article. It appears that the responding officers have no knowledge of the law in this area, and amazingly enough, neither does the prosecutor. I find it rather frightening that the folks charged with enforcing the law are so woefully ignorant of it. It will be interesting to see how quickly the charges will be dropped once someone actually does some legal research. It is legal to possess a laser-sighted weapon, and there is no prohibition against having a threaded barrel on a pistol. Also, I find it interesting that the detective in question chose to characterize the weapon as "high- quality....made to fire in combat, like our Glocks". This has no relevance to anything, and I'm surprised that you chose to include it in your piece. I await your comments. Respectfully, [name redacted]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:32:30 AM EST
What the hell?? I thought Indiana was generally pro-gun. The nonsense spewed by the cops, the gun shop owner, and the reporter sound like something out of England.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:32:49 AM EST
Your response was to logical and you were able to back up your arguement with fact. You will never hear from this person again.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:35:30 AM EST
Your response was to logical and you were able to back up your arguement with fact. I will be surprised if you ever hear from this person again. Why should he have to resort to the truth when the usual BS PC emotional crap sounds better? That might take work or something, a reporter does not have time for that.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:35:38 AM EST
GAWD the media is full of ignorant morans! I'm convinced these guys got journalism degrees because they where too dumb to do anything else!
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:35:45 AM EST
I am sick of hearing this crap when the police over dramatize an arrest to justify there PC. I think the idiot in the story should go to jail for robbing/stealing from the store but that is probably it. Black Talon was never banned or made illegal and was never designed to kill police it was designed to kill, yes but aren't all bullets. Winchester withdrew there BT line because of all the bad publicity crap that the media and medical industry was giving them due to doctors gloves getting cut when removing the rounds from gang bangers, and the rounds being evil looking and black.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:38:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: What the hell?? I thought Indiana was generally pro-gun. The nonsense spewed by the cops, the gun shop owner, and the reporter sound like something out of England.
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I KNOW! This is what scares the shit out of me! I live in this county - which means I could be subject to the whim of this shithead prosecutor at any given time.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:43:52 AM EST
What you mean my truck gun, a Colt .45ACP, is loaded with banned "armor piercing" ammunition! Oh no! By the way, good response, QuietShootr. Kudos.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:48:09 AM EST
funny thing is that the cops are problably carring Rangers in there duty weapons right now which is ver similar and probably a better round than the black talon. If you ask me the cops sound pretty stupid the gun was probably loaded with hydroshok and they saw them and said cop killer bullets!
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:48:17 AM EST
Here's my letter to the newspaper Not quite as nice! I am SHOCKED! at the obvious lack of research on and verification of the Gelardin article. Do you simply accept and print fairy tales like this? The man clearly knows nothing about firearms,ammunition,bulletproof vests or laws concerning them.Was he hard to hire away from the tabloid you got him from?
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:51:16 AM EST
merits of the case aside, since all i shoot is fmj .45, 223, .30-06 and the occasional soft point, what exactly is black talon? maybe tatjana or one of our other in-house ammo experts can explain this for the uninitiated?
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:53:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 8:57:04 AM EST by eagle1911]
This is a copy of the reply I sent to the writer: Dear sir, I just read your article about the arrest of Ed and Eric Bartley. I have to say that you have lost credibility as a journalist. You did not research your material that you printed. You accepted a detectives statement without verifying the truth and validity to it. As is the case with many of the people involved with your trade you wrote a story that was sensational and designed to sell papers. In the future, you might want to verify the facts of the case before you write the story. If verifying the facts takes to long, you might want to write another story. You did what a lot of news papers in the country do, you are attempting to try a person in the press, rather than in a court. Sincerely, Here is the guy's email address: [email]joseph.gelarden@indystar.com[/email] Edited to add email address.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:55:32 AM EST
"People think the vest will stop every round, but that is not so. They won't stop a rifle or a slug," he said.
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The last I heard, .45 ACP is [b]not[/b] a rifle round or (shotgun) slug.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:00:10 AM EST
I hate all thieves, but I especially hate armed ones.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:06:56 AM EST
I'd be honored. Drop me an e-mail - Mrs.QS is out of town this weekend, so it's firearms and debauchery till Sunday! [beer]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:14:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By gardenWeasel: I hate all thieves, but I especially hate armed ones.
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I agree...but how do we know that's what they were? And even if they are, that doesn't justify horseshit gun charges.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:15:32 AM EST
Yellow journalism at its best (worst). [:(!] Threaded barrel designed to accept a silencer? Did they find this so-called silencer? Laser sights, ready for combat situations, OOOOOH! Laser sights! They were obviously criminals! [heavy]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:19:27 AM EST
Of course, they used Don Davis, of Don's Guns notoriety. This guy can't keep ANYTHING straight, and his stores are managed by thieves of the lowest class.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:19:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 9:22:52 AM EST by mr_wilson]
Here's my e-mail, Mr. Gelarden, Read your article on the Black Talon rounds and was wondering why you would post such blatant mis-representations in your article. Black Talon rounds are no more armour-piercing than any other 230 grn. hollow-point bullet on the market. Are your folks really that ignorant of the truth up there or what? Just because the arresting officer appears devoid of all common sense, does that mean you should follow suit. Isn't there anything resembling "journalistic integrity" in Indiana. While they may not be politically correct, I carry them in all my 45s and will continue to carry them for they are very efficient rounds and should the need arise I have complete confidence that they will perform. More to the point, none of them could ever be construed as armour-piercing, because they will not go through any vest currently required by police departments where I live. I have to believe your officers wear the same rated vests up there. As a life member of the Law Enforcement Association of America I believe my take on this matter is in every way germane, as I have and will continue to have relationships and provide support for officers of all juristictions. Just because your LEO's and DAs have no regard for the truth, does not relieve you of your public trust to provide accurate reporting. While there are other complete falsehoods in your article, the fact remains that other than thievery (which they may or may not be guilty of) nothing involving the weapon appears to be in violation of any weapons law currently on the books in the USA. Whether they were breaking the law in the manner they were carrying the pistol, or not, is not an issue for me here, my point is you have failed miserably in your reporting of this incident. You passed up a very good opportunity in my opinion here to expose the total incompetence displayed by Detective Stoops and Prosecutor Baldwin for they are both as we say down in my neck of the woods "dumber than a fence post" when it comes to interpreting current firearm laws. In closing I just like to say that if this is an indication of the best you can do in the field of journalism, if this is your idea competent reporting, should this article even remotely indicate your abilities in confirming the facts before report them, you sir "need to find yourself another line of work" for you are a total waste as a reporter. Sincerely, Mike Wilson
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:30:58 AM EST
[URL=http://www.faqs.org/faqs/talk-politics-guns/pro-gun-faq/part1]Scroll down to sec 3.4[/url] for a summary of how the media and politicians perpetuated the "cop killer" bullet myth. (note: might be a slow download for modem users)
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:31:24 AM EST
ROFLMAOWTNTP!!!! That's Fvcking Great!!
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:33:53 AM EST
QuietShootr, I clicked on the thread to give you a hard time about the offensive subject, but after reading the article, the subject isn't offensive enough! I just don't understand why cops are so ready to lie like that to get an arrest. They know the persecutor and the press will back them up, and they will never get in trouble at work for their illegal actions, so I guess they take it as a challenge to see what they can get away with. I deal with several former cops at work on a daily basis, and when it comes to anything gun-related, it's amazing rabid anti-gun they can be.z
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:39:24 AM EST
'persecutor' .. hee hee hee
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:43:41 AM EST
mr_wilson!! That was great!! You said it all..
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:55:41 AM EST
Things I would like to see...but would never happen...... A newpaper article exposing those police officers and other so called gun experts as being FOS. I once listened to a police chief go on an on about how the waiting period of the Brady Bill was important in keeping kids from getting guns. Not only was his statements completely illogical (how would a waiting period affect a kid, to whom it is illegal possess a handgun) but it was completely incorrect. The Brady Bill waiting persiod did not even apply in our state. I pointed this out to the reporter who was listening to this BS with me. All he said was "really?" and proceeded to write the story without pointing out that the chief was FOS. The chief was widely quoted and interviewed and not one media person questioned if what he said was true or accurate.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:03:00 AM EST
I wrote him as well, following in the vein of QS, especially about how his story would have had a social good by telling the police and DA that any charges against the brothers would be a waste of public resources and would only bring harm against the owner for no good reason.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:22:41 AM EST
his reponse to my email: Thanks for your note. I understand your point of view. However, the police statements were made in sworn affidavits filed in court. It is now up to a judge to decide whether they are true or not. You can be sure we will follow this case as it progresses through the system. If the cop is full of beans, we will report this. If the guy is convicted, we will report that fact too. Stay tuned to The Star to follow the case. Joe
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:23:01 AM EST
Hello Everybody! I love this site! I'm probably your newest member. I want to say thanks for the good information!! I read the article in the paper and saw the post. I thought I should reply to add my two (2) cents. I'm also a Active Law Enforcement officer of many years. I have many arrests and pulled my weapon many time. This doesn't make me an expert! There was one good line in the article. "Training and common sense are the only defense police officers have" I agree and I KNOW many officers KNOW this. I carry a glock .45 Cal. by choice. I also have some total legal (in my state) Black Talons in a magazine in my squad. Every Officer KNOWS he or she is outguned when they step into their Squad Car. I see the Newspaper Reporter was also to blame for this outragous mess. I have seen this happen to me many times. Did they leave out a word, like "Body" in front of Armor? Maybe Indy has that law? I commend the alleged bad guys for owning a quality weapon. I wish more would follow suit and put the junk dealers out of business. The threaded barrel is just an option and doesn't change the way the gun shoots. It again is total legal (in my state). I was at the Indy 1500 and saw some Black Talons for sale to the public. Now the fact that it is legal in my state doesn't mean it is in the city of Indy. The Law Enforcement might have a good case. On the other hand it might be a Black Eye for Law Enforcement. I can't see it going to court if it isn't true. Did they steal the lumber from Menards or was this a witch hunt? (did I say that out loud?) I have seen this Law Enforcement system work. Don't give up on us yet. I know everybody needs help, even Law Enforcement. Thank You for letting me be a part of this.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:24:40 AM EST
Here's my e-mail to this piece of isht: Mr. Gelarden, I'm astonished at your blatant bias and utter ignorance concerning firearms, bullets and crime. Its painfully obvious that you have no journalistic integrity as it pertains to doing research and conducting interviews. Your "article" has so many mistakes and assumptions, I'm surprised it was published. First of all, Black Talon bullets are NOT armor piecing. If you had done 5 minutes worth of research and called the ATF, you would have found this out. But I guess that's too much to ask of the liberal media, bent on vilifying firearms at any cost; even if it means lying and misrepresenting facts. In addition, your tone while describing a Glock firearm as "powerful firearm, designed to fire in combat situations" is negative as well. So what if its a combat firearm! I have news for you, Captain Obvious, a lot of firearms are designed to be fired in combat. I'm sure it'll shock you to know that there are literally thousands of Glocks in circulation; one being kept in my dresser drawer with a magazine full of hollow-point bullets. Good day sir.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:26:24 AM EST
Here's my email to him. Your article is horrible written and is based off lie’s to try to further induce anti-gun propaganda into the general public. If I can’t trust what you say in this article, I can honestly say I will no longer to trust you or the paper you represent any further. The black talon round was pulled off the market VOLENTARILY by Winchester, due to people writing lie’s in articles just like this, convincing non-aware people that these rounds are BAD. There are actually many bullets created today that are MUCH more affective then the black talon round. Why don’t you write an article about these? Black talon bullets cannot and never were intended to pierce “armor”. They were never “cop killer” bullets, due to the fact that any bullet could be considered “cop killer” bullets. I recommend you pull your article from indystar so you don’t further taint your reputation and the paper you represent. Thank you, and have a good day.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:27:07 AM EST
My low key response to his response: Thank you for your response. The question I have is when the weapons charges turn out to be bogus, will this be published on the same page as the original story, or will it be hidden in a part of the paper most people do not read?
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:34:46 AM EST
Here's what the boob sent me:
Thanks for your note. I suggest you read Indiana Code section 35-47-5-11. Joe
View Quote
That would be the SAME section I quoted in my initial letter. Dumb ass.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:38:19 AM EST
eagle1911...EXACTLY !!!! The problem is like you stated, they never follow up on the bogus claims they make in thier stories.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:38:46 AM EST
Exactly. That follow up article wouldn't be "stirring up the pot" so it won't be published anywhere. BTW, how come knowone has made any comments about another hidden lie in this article. You know, the line about the Glock. [:P]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:42:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By mayday: eagle1911...EXACTLY !!!! The problem is like you stated, they never follow up on the bogus claims they make in thier stories.
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Again here is his response, am I the only one he is responding to? I have no control over placement of the stories in the paper. I am the reporter not the editor. However, as the Bartleys are prominent folks in Hendricks County and the charges are serious, I would suppose they would be put in a prominent place in the paper. Again. Thanks for reading The Star. Joe
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:43:13 AM EST
I thought Winchester pulled the Black Talons from the market and then released the same type bullet under a different name called the SXT. Same damn bullet and it was never "banned". I heard alot of anti-gun doctors talk about how awful it was working on a person who was shot with one because the bullet would leave alot of fragments that would cut their hands when operating on the wound... but I would all hollow point jacketed bullets would leave the same typw of fragments... Just another case of ignorant people babbling on like they are experts...
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:44:57 AM EST
I hereby nominate Joseph Gelarden for Ass-Clown Of The Day, with Runner-Up status going to Detective Stoops.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:45:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 10:45:48 AM EST by eagle1911]
I think there is more to this story than meets the eye. as you can read in my post with his second reply, the accused are prominant in the area. perhaps a member who lives ther can tell us more about these two.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:47:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By eagle1911: I think there is more to this story than meets the eye. as you can read in my post with his second reply, the accused are prominant in the area. perhaps a member who lives ther can tell us more about these two.
View Quote
I do live in that county...my family's been here for a hundred years...and I've never heard of them.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:49:55 AM EST
This guy got back to me pretty quick!! Here's what he said, and what I said back. I don't know why I wasting so much of my time on this guy. Anyways, enjoy. -----Original Message----- From: joseph.gelarden@indystar.com [mailto:joseph.gelarden@indystar.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:30 PM To: John Miller Subject: Re: Sir I'M SORRY to say I will no longer read your column's or your paperany longer.... Thanks for your note. The information contained in the story was based on a sworn affidavit filed in court. The charge is now on the public record. The police will be required to prove the allegations in open court. This time, the defense lawyer will have a chance to rebut the allegations. In this case, it is not up to me, it is not up to you, to decide whether the bullets in question are in violation of the law. Like any other question presented to the America Justice system, the answers are decided by a judge or a jury.] We will report on this case as it progresses through the system. Stay tuned to the Star for developments. Joe And my response: That's the problem, after the bullet aspect of this case gets dropped, where will this follow up article be placed? This follow up article won't be "stirring up the liberal pot", so it won't be publish, it will be swept under the carpet like all of the other cases that lean more towards pro-gun. The way you respond is like saying, "well it isn't my problem, I just write the articles". Well you sir are the eyes and ears for the rest of the sheeple in this country, so how you interpret things, is how others are going to as well. I'm not getting on you about writing this article, or am I trying to saturate you with my agenda, I AM getting on you about how you've WRITTEN this article. You are spouting nothing but anti-gun propaganda in the way you word the entire article. I know you know what I'm talking about. But in any chance you don't, read your article again, and think of it from a LOGICAL point of view, not the view of anti-gun stance this country has seemed to fallen into. We have forgotten were we come from!!
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:55:04 AM EST
Hell, he won't even reply to me anymore. Assclown.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:56:27 AM EST
i'd hope that anyone reading this from indiana would never goto don's guns. that man preys on the unintelligent citizen who is looking to buy a firearm. he is not a friend of the second amendment...he has openly critized the indy 1500 because heven forbid someone might get a gun cheaper there than at his sham of a shop. by far the best gun shop in indy is albro's (just south of beech grove). i've gottena kimber and benelli from them...great price on both guns and they are straight up folks. sloth
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 11:33:33 AM EST
"powerful .45-caliber semi-automatic pistol" I have a 1911, is that one of the [b]powerful[/b] 45s or..."the other kind"? [>:/]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 11:54:16 AM EST
My response to his BOXED response. [b]Joe, Thankyou for your quick response, I'm sure others have written. However in an age where the government and its many legs have the power to destroy (financially and reputation) a mans life, I find it the press' responsibility to report the truth, regardless of what the powers of be may say. If public outrage occurs over their illegal charges, that public opinion could and WOULD sway a DA to drop the charges. Keep in mind many judges are publicly elected officials. You now have the information neccessary to write a second story which has the power to do something useful, I hope you do not squander it because it may contain some "opinion." As it is, the charges are ALL opinion. Do some quick research on the Black Talon, it was never intended as an armor piercing bullet, nor CAN it. Regular full metal jacket Ball ammo has that capability since it is not meant to expand, but yet all police vests are rated to stop rounds up to 44 magnum, which is a higher velocity, more lethal round. Please do the research and do the right thing for these men. One day it could be you. A Potential Fan, Greg [/b]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:10:33 PM EST
"Training and common sense are the only defense police officers have, he said." Evidently they are defenseless, because these guys have neither training or common sense. The case will be dismissed quite probably before actually coming to trial during the discovery phase when the defense submits an affadavit from Winchester/Olin stating that the Black Talon round was never outlawed in either federal or state jurisdictions and that it was removed from the market voluntarily by the firm. Furthermore, the Black Talon round was never designed to, intended to or demonstrated any capability of tearing through police body armor. In fact, the controlled expansion design is less effective at penetrating body armor than conventional FMJ ammunition. The charges will stick on the theft however and commiting a theft while in possession of a firearm may add to their crime. Very stupid.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:11:13 PM EST
My e-mail: Black Talon bullets are NOT armor piercing!! Black Talon bullets are NOT Teflon coated!! Black Talon bullets have never been illegal anywhere in the U.S. unless a state or city has banned hollow point ammunition. Hollow Points are NOT designed to penetrate Kevlar vests! No armor piercing handgun ammunition has been legal for sale to civilians for decades & as far as I know NO manufacturer has ever tried to market such a cartridge. Black Talon bullets where coated with a proprietary "Lubalox" coating designed to reduce friction with the barrel & reduce fouling. This makes a firearm easier to clean. Winchester still uses the Lubalox coating today on ammunition that is perfectly legal to buy,sell,own for civilians. A threaded muzzle violates NO Federal laws either. It may violate some state laws. A threaded muzzle does not = a silencer. Many people utilize a threaded muzzle for competition shooting. This allows one to attach a muzzlebreak to reduce recoil & improve accuracy. Ask the BATF, muzzlebreaks are perfectly legal. Do you have a journalism degree??? Shouldn't you get your facts right before you publish LIES ?? Why don't you contact www.winchester.com and educate yourself. His reply: Thanks for your note. We reported information contained in a sworn affidavit filed in court. It is now up the cops to prove their point. If they can, we will do a story on it. If the charges are thrown out of court, we will report this too. What you believe and what I believe to be true has nothing to do with the charges in court. It is not up to us. It is now up to a judge and maybe a jury to decide after a trial in open court. Stay tuned to The Star to read the details as they unfold. Joe
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:14:39 PM EST
one more :) > What you believe and what I believe to be true has nothing to do with the > charges in court. It is not up to us. > It is now up to a judge and maybe a jury to decide after a trial in open > court. > Stay tuned to The Star to read the details as they unfold. > Joe I think I understand your point BUT it's pathetic when what you or I or anyone else "believes" obfuscates the FACTS! Everything in my initial e-mail was factual. I guess your local LEO's & prosecutors don't care about facts. If Mr. Bartley is only charged with violating the state of Indiana's "armor piercing" ammunition ban, I'll bet you $100 he is exonerated. Does he face any other charges? It's a real shame, this will cost Mr. Bartley a significant amount of money to hire a defense attorney & he will have no recourse after his acquittal. All because of the Ignorance of the police & prosecutor. Hopefully Mr. Bartley can be successful in a civil suit after the criminal trial. Thank You for taking the time to reply Mr. Gelarden.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 3:31:57 AM EST
I received a response from him as well stating the same things. I don't doubt that the reporter will report that the charges were dropped. However, I seriously doubt that the article will state that Black Talons were NOT banned and are NOT armor-piercing. I doubt the article will state that the detective and prosecutor were WRONG.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 4:40:59 AM EST
It's scary as hell for me. As I said, I live in this county...that could have easily been me. I thought we were above that kind of shit in this county...guess I was WAY wrong.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 11:47:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 11:48:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 2:10:54 PM EST by M4Madness]
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