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Posted: 5/2/2011 2:12:31 PM EDT
Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a
resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of
the Bible is certainly not one of them.



What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures,
particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts
of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent
laws.”



A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.



In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.



http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:13:26 PM EDT
This is why people are fucking fed up.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:14:45 PM EDT
wat?
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:14:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schizrade:
This is why people are fucking fed up.


If this is why people are fed up, they have been successfully diverted from paying attention to anything that matters.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:15:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:
Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.



This Christian happens to agree with you.

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:39:04 PM EDT
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 2:54:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.


Point taken.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 3:04:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 3:36:43 PM EDT




Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.




I dropped in this thread to post that exact sentiment.  May they find another shiny object next so they don't do more harm to something important.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 3:43:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 3:56:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:
Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.

What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures, particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent laws.”

A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.

In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.

http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/


It's not like that isn't true.  I recall that there were even cases where it was explicitly said that the scriptures formed part of the basis for the Common Law.  Heck, the Western conception of liberty would not have been possible without the Christian influence on the civilization, as the self-worth of the individual person is a concept that very much derives from Christianity.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:01:00 PM EDT
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:03:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:05:04 PM EDT
perils of a perpetual legislature––they have to fill their time with something.  



as posted above, better this than yet more overlegislation.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:06:34 PM EDT



Originally Posted By bigstick61:



Originally Posted By motown_steve:

I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.




Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.


It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.





 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:09:01 PM EDT



Originally Posted By motown_steve:


I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


yeah––arguably would be an endorsement and therefore would violate the 'effect' prong of the lemmon test.  nonetheless, i'd rather have them wasting time with this than with trying to pass another stimulus or a ban on chocolate.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:09:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.

It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.

 


Which has no more to do with the Establishment Clause than does showing deference to old people. Whoops. That's in the Bible, too. But you get the point.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:11:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.


A wise expert on government once told me, "Red tape and inefficiency is what saves us from them (the government).  You don't want an efficient government any more than you would want an efficient Mafia."
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:11:37 PM EDT



Originally Posted By bigstick61:



Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:



Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.



What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures, particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent laws.”



A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.



In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.



http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/



It's not like that isn't true.  I recall that there were even cases where it was explicitly said that the scriptures formed part of the basis for the Common Law.  Heck, the Western conception of liberty would not have been possible without the Christian influence on the civilization, as the self-worth of the individual person is a concept that very much derives from Christianity.


Cite?



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:12:16 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Old_Painless:



Originally Posted By DieselEngineer:




Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.




I dropped in this thread to post that exact sentiment.  May they find another shiny object next so they don't do more harm to something important.




Yep, I hope they argue about "National Bluebird Week" or something next week.



"No man's freedoms are safe as long as Congress is in session."





"If 'pro' is the opposite of 'con,' then what is the opposite of 'progress?"



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:14:53 PM EDT



Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



Originally Posted By motown_steve:




Originally Posted By bigstick61:


Originally Posted By motown_steve:

I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.




Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.


It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.



 




Which has no more to do with the Establishment Clause than does showing deference to old people. Whoops. That's in the Bible, too. But you get the point.


I know that you're a lawyer and all, but that's just plain intellectually dishonest.



It's an endorsement of the religious text of one sect of Christianity, and it violates the spirit of the First Amendment, if not judicial interpretations of the First Amendment.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:15:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.


+1

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:16:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:

Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.

What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures, particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent laws.”

A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.

In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.

http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/

It's not like that isn't true.  I recall that there were even cases where it was explicitly said that the scriptures formed part of the basis for the Common Law.  Heck, the Western conception of liberty would not have been possible without the Christian influence on the civilization, as the self-worth of the individual person is a concept that very much derives from Christianity.

Cite?
 


Institutes of the Lawes of England; Exodus; Leviticus; Numbers; Deuteronomy. Compare. If you find significant contrasts except as to criminal punishments, you will receive 300 Ph.D.s one month after publication of your findings.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:22:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.

It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.

 


Which has no more to do with the Establishment Clause than does showing deference to old people. Whoops. That's in the Bible, too. But you get the point.

I know that you're a lawyer and all, but that's just plain intellectually dishonest.

It's an endorsement of the religious text of one sect of Christianity, and it violates the spirit of the First Amendment, if not judicial interpretations of the First Amendment.
 


If you look at the laws that for a long time were considered acceptable under the 1st Amendment, including blasphemy laws, no, that is not correct.  If the law is not involving the establishment of a state religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion (within reason; human sacrifices, for example, would not be protected), and is allowed by one of the powers granted to Congress, then it is fine.  Since the mid-20th century or so many courts have ruled otherwise but I would say given the history around this area, they are likely incorrect and the older court rulings more correct on the matter.  The spirit of the law is basically to prevent what was the case in Britain, where there was an official government church that all had to pay for and also discrimination against those who were not Protestant.  This resolution, besides not having any force of law, does not violate the 1st Amendment nor the spirit of it as understood at the time it was written.  The degree to which some people have taken this matter would have back then been considered downright preposterous.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:25:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.

It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.

 


Which has no more to do with the Establishment Clause than does showing deference to old people. Whoops. That's in the Bible, too. But you get the point.

I know that you're a lawyer and all, but that's just plain intellectually dishonest.

It's an endorsement of the religious text of one sect of Christianity, and it violates the spirit of the First Amendment, if not judicial interpretations of the First Amendment.
 


Documents do not have spirits. If someone accuses you of violating the spirit of the law, he is saying that you have complied with the law, but he does not like what you did. The Establishment Clause prohibits only one very specific thing: federal action concerning establishment of religion.

Everything else that you think you know about that clause is a product of the same intellectual dishonesty (you need to look that up) that derived from the statement that Congress has the power to "regulate Commerce . . . among the several States" the conclusion that Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce, intrastate commerce, and inter- and intrastate noncommercial activity.

You have been misled.

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2011 4:30:35 PM EDT by badfish274]
Hell, even Christopher Hitchens (yes, that Hitchens) likes the KJV.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/05/hitchens-201105
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:26:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Not really.  The resolution establishes no State religion.

It definitely shows deference to Protestant Christianity.

 


Which has no more to do with the Establishment Clause than does showing deference to old people. Whoops. That's in the Bible, too. But you get the point.

I know that you're a lawyer and all, but that's just plain intellectually dishonest.

It's an endorsement of the religious text of one sect of Christianity, and it violates the spirit of the First Amendment, if not judicial interpretations of the First Amendment.
 


Documents do not have spirits. If someone accuses you of violating the spirit of the law, he is saying that you have complied with the law, but he does not like what you did. The Establishment Clause prohibits only one very specific thing: federal action concerning establishment of religion.

Everything else that you think you know about that clause is a product of the same intellectual dishonesty (you need to look that up) that derived from the statement that Congress has the power to "regulate Commerce . . . among the several States" the conclusion that Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce, intrastate commerce, and inter- and intrastate noncommercial activity.

You have been misled.



Well said.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:28:06 PM EDT



Originally Posted By FLAL1A:


The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.


This unapologetic heathen is okay with this reasoning.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:28:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Hell, even Christopher Hitchens (yes, that Hitchens) likes the KJV.


You can't like the English language and fail to like the KJV, along with Shakespeare and the Book of Common Prayer.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:29:45 PM EDT



Originally Posted By badfish274:


Hell, even Christopher Hitchens (yes, that Hitchens) likes the KJV.


Truth. He loves to write (it's his job and reason for living, in his own words), and the KJV is literary art.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:30:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.

This unapologetic heathen is okay with this reasoning.
 


I figured we'd be on the same page. I would be all for their spending a few weeks debating the construction of an Anton LaVey memorial on the Mall.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:33:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.

This unapologetic heathen is okay with this reasoning.
 


I figured we'd be on the same page. I would be all for their spending a few weeks debating the construction of an Anton LaVey memorial on the Mall.


if they put one more thing on Pierre L'Enfant's masterpiece, I'm going to drop kick a baby.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:35:47 PM EDT
Robert Byrd spent a lot of time on the floor talking about how the King James was the one true version of the bible.



Can't find the video.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:37:36 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Old_Painless:



Originally Posted By DieselEngineer:




Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.




I dropped in this thread to post that exact sentiment.  May they find another shiny object next so they don't do more harm to something important.




Yep, I hope they argue about "National Bluebird Week" or something next week.



"No man's freedoms are safe as long as Congress is in session."





That quote....I remember something very similar but I cannot remember who it was attributed to.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:41:01 PM EDT



Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



Originally Posted By Subnet:




Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

The less time Congress spends on things of substance, the better. They cannot steal anything or invade anyone's home while they debate the influence of the KJV on American civilization.


This unapologetic heathen is okay with this reasoning.

 




I figured we'd be on the same page. I would be all for their spending a few weeks debating the construction of an Anton LaVey memorial on the Mall.


"If it neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg..."



Know what I mean? Anton LaVey it is. I understand that the OP wants Congress to do something useful, vis-à-vis our normal predilection towards meaningless gestures. But the thing is, any time Congress acts, they near universally solve a "problem" by restricting liberty, in one form or another.



"Hail Satan!", for all I give a fuck. Just keep your hands out of my pocket, and off of my property.

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:42:17 PM EDT
A giant bronze bust of Anton LaVey with flames behind the eyes would be pretty cool looking.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:43:38 PM EDT



Originally Posted By wingnutx:


A giant bronze bust of Anton LaVey with flames behind the eyes would be pretty cool looking.


Pretty sure that flames behind the eyes makes anybody cool. It makes for a great album cover, at the very least.



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:47:48 PM EDT


If bullshit like this  is more to The Tea Party than fixing our fucked up economy, balancing the budget, and paying down the debt they need to be fired in 2012.

Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:51:04 PM EDT



Originally Posted By FLAL1A:



Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:


Originally Posted By bigstick61:


Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:



Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.



What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures, particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent laws.”



A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.



In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.



http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/



It's not like that isn't true.  I recall that there were even cases where it was explicitly said that the scriptures formed part of the basis for the Common Law.  Heck, the Western conception of liberty would not have been possible without the Christian influence on the civilization, as the self-worth of the individual person is a concept that very much derives from Christianity.


Cite?

 


Institutes of the Lawes of England; Exodus; Leviticus; Numbers; Deuteronomy. Compare. If you find significant contrasts except as to criminal punishments, you will receive 300 Ph.D.s one month after publication of your findings.



And those laws came from where?



 
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 4:57:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:

Of all the things Congress should and could be spending time on, a resolution celebrating the influence of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is certainly not one of them.

What’s more, the resolution claims that the "teachings of Scriptures, particularly read from the King James Scriptures, have inspired concepts of civil government contained in our founding documents, and subsequent laws.”

A small Michigan-based non-profit called the Bible Nation Society (BNS) came to Washington to lobby for this measure during the budget debate last month.

In 2010, at the BNS "Bible in Culture” conference, Levesque revealed his conspiracy theory on why Obama could be the Antichrist.

http://blog.au.org/2011/05/02/fundamental-error-kjv-resolution-in-congress-should-be-doa/

It's not like that isn't true.  I recall that there were even cases where it was explicitly said that the scriptures formed part of the basis for the Common Law.  Heck, the Western conception of liberty would not have been possible without the Christian influence on the civilization, as the self-worth of the individual person is a concept that very much derives from Christianity.

Cite?
 


Chief Justice Matthew Hale's statement in his opinion in Rex v. Taylor is a good example, as it was cited in many later cases as well as in Blackstone's.  In the ruling he states, "Christianity is parcel of the laws of England," and as I'm sure most people here know, the laws of England form a major basis for the laws of America, and we in fact inherited quite a bit, which is why in the Heller case, for example, British law was cited.

For an American perspective on opinions such as the above, not to mention others, we can look at Chief Justice Joseph Story, who in his inaugural speech at Harvard as Dane Professor of Law, stated, "One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the common law, from which it seeks the sanction of its rights, and by which it endeavours to regulate its doctrines.... There never was a period, in which the common law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation."
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:00:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:02:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I think this falls under the "respecting an establishment of religion" category.


Only if one has no understanding of what the term means.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:17:00 PM EDT
Same thread, different day.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 5:31:06 PM EDT
While I agree that Congress wastes time and money on silly resolutions AND even though it is very true that when wasting time, they stay out of our pockets, I find it interesting you chose to express your outrage over this resolution and not the multitudes of others, such as S. Res 155 "National Adopt a Library Day"  http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=sr112-155

Could there possibly be a bit of Christian bashing  or hostility at the heart of your rant?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa....


Link Posted: 5/2/2011 6:02:57 PM EDT
Something GOOD that Congress is doing. Finally.

The Bible is the greatest book in the world and has several good faithful versions including the KJV
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 6:31:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 7:00:35 PM EDT




If we as a nation forget where the foundation of our very laws came from, we will not survive.  



It needs to be reiterated time and again:  We ARE a Christian nation, founded upon the Judeo-Christian ethos, and we must never forget this fact.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 9:16:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By futuremodal:


If we as a nation forget where the foundation of our very laws came from, we will not survive.  

It needs to be reiterated time and again:  We ARE a Christian nation, founded upon the Judeo-Christian ethos, and we must never forget this fact.


Exactly.  A structure cannot stand without its foundation.  The West has been hell-bent on destroying the foundation it stands upon for the last century or so.  Our liberties have been a major part of the cost.
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