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Posted: 9/30/2011 6:02:22 AM EST
So, does anyone know what the ATF considers to be too much of an aid to rapid fire? I know that springs are pretty much a no-no. Are there any other devices that have been ruled to be Machine Guns?

I, like most people here (except the people who have a couple million in pre-86 stuff) hope that the '86 ban will be overturned soon. I personally think its going to happen, especially with this statistic: only 2 people have ever been murdered with an NFA registered MG, and one of those people was murdered by a police officer in '88 with a MAC-11. Kind of a solution without a problem. But until then...

I know that the rush of full-auto fire is quite expensive and doesn't really last very long, but for me that isn't the point. I don't like being denied a right by MY government, so I want to get around the ban like everyone else without risking prosecution. I know that a rubber band and some practice will get you full auto fire, but if it were really the same, no one would pay $15,000 for a Sendra M16...

So here is what I am thinking. The limits of the letter of the law IMO haven't been tested yet. The SSAR stock proves that. It technically cannot be be called a MG because the shooter's bio-metrics are the only thing creating the rapid rate of fire. If they could ban it they would have, they are the ATF...

If I can get a good idea of what in the past has been found to constitute a MG, I might be able to come up with something better than the SSAR that is still legal. At the least the Gatling Gun rule can go a long way for tripod mounted heavy MG's, but those are pretty impractical to most people and cost a small fortune to shoot.

Link Posted: 9/30/2011 6:15:36 AM EST
If one pull of the trigger fires more than one round, it's an MG.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 6:26:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
If I can get a good idea of what in the past has been found to constitute a MG, I might be able to come up with something better than the SSAR that is still legal.


Whatever they feel like at that particular moment, to include:

strings, springs, worn parts, soft primers, sledge hammers, magnets, pieces of machined metal, pieces of stamped metal, et. al.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 6:44:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By beve:
If I can get a good idea of what in the past has been found to constitute a MG, I might be able to come up with something better than the SSAR that is still legal.


Whatever they feel like at that particular moment, to include:

strings, springs, worn parts, soft primers, sledge hammers, magnets, pieces of machined metal, pieces of stamped metal, et. al.


I hear that, but here is the thing. If they go beyond the limits of the law, a court battle can overturn their ruling. In an extreme example, they could say a rubber band is a machine gun, but of course they can't.
Not to give away everything that I am thinking of doing, but I used to have a paintball gun when I was a kid and I could rip off 20 rounds a second with that thing in semi auto. One trigger pull, one shot. It was all in the trigger and your fingers.

The technology of firing a shoulder fired gun hasn't really changed since the earliest matchlock guns. you just pull that little thingy hanging down toward you. I see so much room for improvement.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 6:58:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
If they go beyond the limits of the law, a court battle can overturn their ruling.


Good luck with that. I mean it sincerely.

It's hard to win a battle with an enemy that has limitless resources.

Link Posted: 9/30/2011 7:01:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By beve:
If they go beyond the limits of the law, a court battle can overturn their ruling.


Good luck with that. I mean it sincerely.

It's hard to win a battle with an enemy that has limitless resources.



Well the ATF is on deathwatch. That who agency might radically change with the next administration. As far as I can tell, Republicans in the House are sitting on this Gun Walker scandal until later next year when the election cycle really picks up.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 7:36:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
As far as I can tell, Republicans in the House are sitting on this Gun Walker scandal until later next year when the election cycle really picks up.



That light at the end of the tunnel may just be a train heading your way.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:30:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By beve:
As far as I can tell, Republicans in the House are sitting on this Gun Walker scandal until later next year when the election cycle really picks up.



That light at the end of the tunnel may just be a train heading your way.


Do explain, because that sounds like a threat
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:35:54 AM EST
As far as I know, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) of the BATFE doesn't follow any SOP.

All the FTB has to do is take a firearm with unlimited amount of time and have it fire more than ONE round with ONE pull of the trigger and they will rule it is a MG. Oh they will only use the 5 seconds of video of this and will not release the 5 million hours of video that shows it is a semi-auto.

The FTB has done this with a Shoe String and ruled that said shoe string was considered a machine gun.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:45:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shermantor-AR15:
As far as I know, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) of the BATFE doesn't follow any SOP.

All the FTB has to do is take a firearm with unlimited amount of time and have it fire more than ONE round with ONE pull of the trigger and they will rule it is a MG. Oh they will only use the 5 seconds of video of this and will not release the 5 million hours of video that shows it is a semi-auto.

The FTB has done this with a Shoe String and ruled that said shoe string was considered a machine gun.

This PLUS - it's not enough that the trigger is pulled - it needs to be pulled on your influence.

The shoestring met the 1 trigger function 1 shot test, but not the "what pulled the trigger" criteria.

Link Posted: 9/30/2011 9:29:19 AM EST
That's good stuff guys. It sounds to me like if a traditional trigger is pulled by a good old fashion trigger and only one shot is fired before the trigger has to reset and be depressed again, its semi auto. But, if your first finger depression lets loss more than one round, its a MG.

So here is more specific question for you guys. When the trigger is rest on a normal semi auto rifle, I am guessing that a spring inside the trigger is what is doing the work. Your finger releases the trigger and a spring resets the trigger. Does the law say anything about a trigger having to be reset in this way?

Also, what are the laws regarding electronics in guns?
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 9:37:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 9:39:30 AM EST by Gamma762]
Originally Posted By beve:
Also, what are the laws regarding electronics in guns?

If one activation results in more than one shot being discharged, it's a MG. It is irrelevant whether that activation is a mechanical trigger, an electric switch, or a computer keyboard. Miniguns are MGs, you push an electrical switch and it fires until the switch is released.

You cannot "game" the system, stop talking about it, stop contemplating it, and definitely don't do it.

If you want to build MGs, get an 07/02, and build MGs. Would cost you less than any lawsuit or defense from prosecution.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 9:46:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 10:33:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By beve:
As far as I can tell, Republicans in the House are sitting on this Gun Walker scandal until later next year when the election cycle really picks up.



That light at the end of the tunnel may just be a train heading your way.


Do explain, because that sounds like a threat




What you see as "sitting on this...until...the election cycle picks up" (the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel), may end up being "sitting on this".....indefinitly. (the train).

What you see as strategic planning, I see as the normal politics mind games. We'll make you think we're on your side, then we'll distract you with something else and you'll completely forget about the issue at hand.

To wit: I see nothing major coming of the "Fast and Furious" ATF situation.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 11:45:36 AM EST

I, like most people here (except the people who have a couple million in pre-86 stuff) hope that the '86 ban will be overturned soon. I personally think its going to happen, especially with this statistic: only 2 people have ever been murdered with an NFA registered MG, and one of those people was murdered by a police officer in '88 with a MAC-11. Kind of a solution without a problem. But until then...


Wishful thinking. And not very useful wishful thinking.

As mentioned above, don't try to game the issue. Stick to conventional semi-auto. Period.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 2:44:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Originally Posted By beve:
Also, what are the laws regarding electronics in guns?

If one activation results in more than one shot being discharged, it's a MG. It is irrelevant whether that activation is a mechanical trigger, an electric switch, or a computer keyboard. Miniguns are MGs, you push an electrical switch and it fires until the switch is released.

You cannot "game" the system, stop talking about it, stop contemplating it, and definitely don't do it.

If you want to build MGs, get an 07/02, and build MGs. Would cost you less than any lawsuit or defense from prosecution.


Wow, your real tough Do you really think I don't know a mini gun is a MG? Really? I think that technology in the firearms field has been sort of "in the box" for quite a long time, and I am just trying to think outside the box. I don't really want an MG all that bad anyway, I just don't like my rights trampled on. Hell, if there were never made illegal, I probably would never give them a second though.

Once again, my question is what are the rules about electric components in guns? and just a hint so no one feels the need to be a d-bag again, I ask not for rapid fire purposes, but for another reason completely.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:04:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
Wow, your real tough


You better grow a thicker hide if you want to last here. We're trying to help you.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:33:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By beve:
Once again, my question is what are the rules about electric components in guns?

AFAIK there aren't any, the laws cover more broad issues like defining full-auto versus semi-auto, use, posession, transfer, etc.

That said, most guns don't include them because 1) electronics don't hold up well to the shock and concussion associated with gunfire, and 2) you want a design that is KISS-simple, reliable, easily maintained, etc. and throwing electronics into the mix negates that.

<–– 07/C2
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 7:07:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By beve:
Once again, my question is what are the rules about electric components in guns?

AFAIK there aren't any, the laws cover more broad issues like defining full-auto versus semi-auto, use, posession, transfer, etc.

That said, most guns don't include them because 1) electronics don't hold up well to the shock and concussion associated with gunfire, and 2) you want a design that is KISS-simple, reliable, easily maintained, etc. and throwing electronics into the mix negates that.

<–– 07/C2


THANKS! You answered my question perfectly.
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