User Panel
Posted: 11/16/2019 7:41:18 PM EDT
Would NATO and Warsaw Pact forces use nuclear weapons?
Could we (NATO) defeat them without the use of nukes? |
|
Quoted:
Would NATO and Warsaw Pact forces use nuclear weapons? Could we (NATO) defeat them without the use of nukes? View Quote |
|
How Would the Soviet Army Attack in the Cold War? |
|
|
|
We were called speed bumps. Our whole purpose was to stop the gap, slow the gap down, do whatever we could to halt the invasion.
Our commander said in reality we had a life expectancy of roughly 10 seconds. Out of 21 years active duty, 4 army and 17 CG, the 2 years I spent in Fulda were the best. We worked hard and played harder and the command let us live life to the fullest. I miss those days. |
|
I always figured that low-yield nukes would be a "given" in that case.
|
|
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s
|
|
Quoted:
We were called speed bumps. Our whole purpose was to stop the gap, slow the gap down, do whatever we could to halt the invasion. Our commander said in reality we had a life expectancy of roughly 10 seconds. Out of 21 years active duty, 4 army and 17 CG, the 2 years I spent in Fulda were the best. We worked hard and played harder and the command let us live life to the fullest. I miss those days. View Quote |
|
From what I've read the US always intended to go nuclear. It's called deterrence for a reason
I read Admiral Gorshkov's book on Soviet Nuclear doctrine and they believed they could win a tactical or theater level nuclear conflict as well as a conventional war, or combination of them. To the Soviets nuclear or chemical weapons were just another type of weapon in the arsenal with associated political implications, but nothing they considered TEOTWAWKI |
|
|
There may, or may not, have been pre-deployed nuclear weapons with no "STOP" once they were activated...A 3 Star Army General may or may not have told me this while we were watching Desert Storm live in his office....
|
|
We Loaded nukes every exercise on F-111s. We fully expected to get nuked in response.
Every exercise started conventional, then went to selective nuclear release. Every exercise ended with all flyable F-111s loaded for acceptance, downloaded, then launched on command. For us it was usually around 72 F-111s loaded with 2 nukes each. B-61 or B-57. This was 88-90. |
|
|
There would be no other way to win than use nukes. The numerical supremacy of the Warsaw Pact couldn't otherwise be countered.
|
|
|
Nobody wins. We should probably play a game of chess instead.
|
|
Operation Able Archer, Ronnie would have let the nukes fly, in 1983 the Pershing 2 was being placed in West Germany
|
|
The Russian economy would have collapsed all the sooner and more gloriously. Heck, the Russians would have seen how the other side was living and probably would have given up, at least after the initial mushroom clouds had cleared.
|
|
The correlation of forces and corresponding warplanes evolved over the course the Cold War.
At the beginning, NATO was massively outnumbered, so the only real counter to invasion were nuclear strikes. Inside The Soviet Army gives a pretty detailed account of what the initial stages of a Warsaw Pact invasion might look like. It featured a heavy use of tactical nukes. It is difficult to believe that an attack like that would have not gone strategic. I’ve got a book on the decline of the USSR, and it states that the inability of WP forces to make it from the Inter-German Border to the English Channel in a sufficiently quick and organized fashion was a contributing factor to the eventual collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union. When you can’t win the war of conquest that you’ve organized for, you lose the purpose of your organization. |
|
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s View Quote |
|
|
Quoted:
We Loaded nukes every exercise on F-111s. We fully expected to get nuked in response. Every exercise started conventional, then went to selective nuclear release. Every exercise ended with all flyable F-111s loaded for acceptance, downloaded, then launched on command. For us it was usually around 72 F-111s loaded with 2 nukes each. B-61 or B-57. This was 88-90. View Quote |
|
|
Quoted:
I believe someone wrote a documentary... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/428894/496642B8-DF32-46C5-B6C8-113C4D0B2CB2_jpeg-1163325.JPG View Quote |
|
|
I think Clancy nailed how it would have went down, for the most part. I think our conventional forces would have done better than many think.
|
|
Quoted:
We Loaded nukes every exercise on F-111s. We fully expected to get nuked in response. Every exercise started conventional, then went to selective nuclear release. Every exercise ended with all flyable F-111s loaded for acceptance, downloaded, then launched on command. For us it was usually around 72 F-111s loaded with 2 nukes each. B-61 or B-57. This was 88-90. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
There was the Gulf War. Probably the shortest tank battle in history. The Abrams our ranged the T72 by a good distance. It was like shooting fish in a barrel with a mini gun. The A10’s and Apaches both got to do what they were designed for. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s |
|
I love the lore where soviet soldiers were 8 feet tall and could walk through nuclear fire. The truth is, they were incredibly crude and their weapons in hind site were shit. Still they could have done a lot of damage and hurt a lot of people. The truth was, the whole thing was a permanent sitskreig on both sides. No one ever expected the balloon to actually go up. The consequences in the long rung were too high to contemplate.
An actual crossing across the Fulda gap would have been a monumental failure on both sides that ended western civilization. The soviet increasingly octognerian leaders were too practical for that. |
|
This is good. I read the paperback in 1980. The hardcover was published in 1978.
https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-War-August-1985/dp/0425044777/ |
|
Interesting thread. I had a dream last night I was running into a cinder block walled basement and diving into a corner just as a nuke went off nearby. I swear I felt the heat, heard the blast, and saw the light as the house above me was destroyed. I woke up a split second later, but I don't think I lived in my dream. Weird.
|
|
Quoted:
This is good. I read the paperback in 1980. The hardcover was published in 1978. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41BGAs4jGmL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-War-August-1985/dp/0425044777/ View Quote |
|
|
I used to agree with the prevailing theory that overwhelming communist force would've been countered with nukes.
Now I'm more inclined to think the whole Warsaw Pact organization would have fallen to pieces under the weight of it's own decay, disfunction and disarray before it could move the tanks from the motor pools to the border. |
|
Quoted:
I used to agree with the prevailing theory that overwhelming communist force would've been countered with nukes. Now I'm more inclined to think the whole Warsaw Pact organization would have fallen to pieces under the weight of it's own decay, disfunction and disarray before it could move the tanks from the motor pools to the border. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
There was the Gulf War. Probably the shortest tank battle in history. The Abrams our ranged the T72 by a good distance. It was like shooting fish in a barrel with a mini gun. The A10’s and Apaches both got to do what they were designed for. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s |
|
Quoted:
There was the Gulf War. Probably the shortest tank battle in history. The Abrams our ranged the T72 by a good distance. It was like shooting fish in a barrel with a mini gun. The A10's and Apaches both got to do what they were designed for. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s -K |
|
Quoted:
This is good. I read the paperback in 1980. The hardcover was published in 1978. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41BGAs4jGmL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-War-August-1985/dp/0425044777/ View Quote |
|
I think the answer to OP's question also revolved around the time-frame. Before or after Reagan's defense policies took effect.
-K |
|
Quoted:
We were called speed bumps. Our whole purpose was to stop the gap, slow the gap down, do whatever we could to halt the invasion. Our commander said in reality we had a life expectancy of roughly 10 seconds. Out of 21 years active duty, 4 army and 17 CG, the 2 years I spent in Fulda were the best. We worked hard and played harder and the command let us live life to the fullest. I miss those days. View Quote |
|
41% nukes get used, 26% everybody loses. Boy howdy, ain't that the truth!
The next war in the ETO isn't gonna be like the last one we planned. Yes, there were nuclear weapons in theater. Yes there were pre-planned and specifically designed placements for some of those weapons (but no actual weapons) in places like rail yards, major autobahn interchanges and the like. Nike Hercules was the primary air defense artillery. I see that the deployments to europe are mostly not listed on the sites I visited but it is common knowledge that they had nuclear capability. Our forward deployed USAF units also had nuclear availability as did artillery. All of that is in the public realm. I am not aware of any units that had chemical weapons in 1970-era ETO. Go look on wikpedia and be amazed at how far we were prepared to go. It was guys like me that guarded the places they kept all that shit or arranged for security when they were transported. We trained to fight in an NBC environment. MOPP sucked. It just plain sucked. Wintertime....maybe. Summer? Fuck that. But fuck you will, or die. LOL. I was a shiny new PVT E-2 that got sent to NBC school. I remember thinking it was some sort of promotion...until I figured out I was merely a self-mobile canary-without-a-cage LOL. In woodland green camo. With a cute little box that beeped. And lots of needle stickie-thingies and sticks, powder, wipers....decotamination gear, stupid floppy rubber booties you couldn't walk in and a charcoal rubber suit. And a bug-eyes rubber mask. Oh, and a steel pot that didn't stop much but you could dig with it, cook stew in it or use it for a sink. Try that with a K-pot LOL. Tripwire. Delaying force. 72 hours. LOL. My most favorite company commander was a West Point graduate and an all-around great guy. He figured none of us were gonna live long enough to kill a commie ourselves but we could make it so those following us could. Good enough for me. On the off chance we DID survive, we spent plenty of hours playing in the woods and doing what they call MOUT today. Oh wait, they got a new name for fighting in urban areas. Shithole, I think it is LOL. Yeah, guarding the Fulda Gap had its moments. Glad we didn't have to fuck up a perfectly good country defending it but I'd rather fuck up someone else's country than my own. That's the American way. |
|
The neutron bomb was going to be used if the Soviets had come through the Fulda Gap. The warhead was going to be delivered via GLCM units. Enhanced radiation was the way to go in Europe. Since the neutrons disappear from the environment rapidly, such a burst over an enemy column would kill the crews and leave the area able to be quickly reoccupied. Ground zero would be relatively safe soon after the blast.
|
|
|
Quoted:
Interesting thread. I had a dream last night I was running into a cinder block walled basement and diving into a corner just as a nuke went off nearby. I swear I felt the heat, heard the blast, and saw the light as the house above me was destroyed. I woke up a split second later, but I don't think I lived in my dream. Weird. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
I suspect huge swaths of the red army's equipment wouldn't have been functional. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
|
Quoted:
Watching Russian dash cam videos, it all would have been wrecked at the first intersection in Poland View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think Clancy nailed how it would have went down, for the most part. I think our conventional forces would have done better than many think. |
|
Quoted:
I believe someone wrote a documentary... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/428894/496642B8-DF32-46C5-B6C8-113C4D0B2CB2_jpeg-1163325.JPG View Quote |
|
Quoted:
There was the Gulf War. Probably the shortest tank battle in history. The Abrams our ranged the T72 by a good distance. It was like shooting fish in a barrel with a mini gun. The A10’s and Apaches both got to do what they were designed for. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.