Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/13/2004 1:16:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:21:45 PM EST
Good Writeup Brou! Might I also post this at www.MD-AR15.com?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:27:00 PM EST
How did you like the compact ACOG?

Did you witness any interesting equipment failures? Notice any trends?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:32:58 PM EST
Love these training write-ups! Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:38:49 PM EST
Good report.

Have you trained at any other schools so as to be able to give a comparison?

Thanks for the sitrep.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:41:17 PM EST
german camo?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:42:11 PM EST
Please note that I have NOT purchased a membership

thank god................
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:00:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:08:51 PM EST
Thanks brouhaha, for the informative write up.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:11:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 2:18:23 PM EST by 199]
Thanks for the write-up.

How physically demanding would you say this course is?

Also, IIRC, that course is pretty expensive. Is it safe to assume that you consider it worth the price?

Edited to add: what would you consider to be the optimum optic for this course?

Edited to change my edit: never mind, I misread your post and thought you said you had a little trouble with your C. ACOG’s.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:14:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
AR15fan - The C. ACOG was PERFECT. There were a few fullsize ACOGs (mostly TA31) and an EOTech. Austrian and I had little trouble rapidly acquiring our targets at all ranges with the 3x24 compacts. One guy had a problem with his rifle. He was getting light primer strikes. He was in another relay, so I didn't get much time to talk to him about it. Normal diagnoses failed to cure the problem. I dunno how he fixed it...



FWIW; I have seen two causes of light primer strikes. Weak hammer spring and improperly installed buffer tube.


How did the Eotech hold up? I find mine eats batteries really fast.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:24:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Forest - Post away.

AR15fan - The C. ACOG was PERFECT. There were a few fullsize ACOGs (mostly TA31) and an EOTech. Austrian and I had little trouble rapidly acquiring our targets at all ranges with the 3x24 compacts. One guy had a problem with his rifle. He was getting light primer strikes. He was in another relay, so I didn't get much time to talk to him about it. Normal diagnoses failed to cure the problem. I dunno how he fixed it.

O_P - Unfortunately, I have not. Several other students there had and they keep coming back to FS. I think I'm gonna try some of the other schools when time permits.

JHP - Yes. Tropentarn. It works VERY well out in NV.



where do you get it? how durable/rugged is the material? How much?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:30:29 PM EST
I want to do one these bad.

Did you have a camelbak or hydration system on?

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:38:45 PM EST
What were the primary rifles most people bought with them? Mostly AR's, or other things?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:03:06 PM EST
MY GOD! HE MELTED!!



Great write up. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:25:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:29:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:30:39 PM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:40:35 PM EST
Do you have any recommendations regarding accommodations?

hey that rhymes
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:43:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:54:37 PM EST by Fingers]

Also, IIRC, that course is pretty expensive


Not unless you think $200 for a 4 day course is expensive. Check the EE for Grey Certificates if you want to go and haven't been before.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:46:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:53:46 PM EST
After purchasing a few different ARs in the past couple of years, I have come to the conclusion that I hate the A2 grip. It is to rough on my hand and doesn't feel right.

After hauling your rifle around for four days, did the A2 begin to feel rough?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:56:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:59:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:13:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:55:12 PM EST
Thanks for the write up.
I am going to the same class next April.
Thanks for the heads up.

Scott
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:11:19 PM EST
Brou,
Was there any night work? Particularly regarding the use of lights?

I found a washout problem with my TA50-2 under specific conditions at night with a light. If the light was 'just right' and the target reflective enough - in the right color range - the reticule would 'washout'. Just enough reflextive illumination to illuminate the reticule to 'gray' - all other times I had a nice amber reticule (no light) or a black reticule (lots of reflective light).
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:26:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:39:40 PM EST
I took the 2-Dya class a year ago and was really surprised by how much I learned. Plus, I wanted to duck out of the class room sessions for new folks, but they were well worth it.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:40:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 6:41:50 PM EST by newtoma]
Sorry dupe posted
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:34:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Brou, Id really like to hear your impressions of the 3x Compact ACOG in comparision to an Aimpoint.



For the shots within 100yds, the Aimpoint would have been just fine. Probably even better than the ACOG for the 15 and 25yd ocular shots.

But at the 200yd range, the dot on the aimpoint would have obscured the thoracic cavity, making it really difficult to get good hits.

I almost brought mine along to play with, but I was limited on space and luggage weight (I had already left quite a bit behind).



The 3x24 Compact ACOG is simply the best optic for this course. 200 meters even 400 meters are good hits on steel CoM shots. 400 meters means a good strong hold but 200 isn't much effort at all. Rapid assumption of prone and a good shot is about 4-5.5 seconds.

CQB shots, even snapshots against the timer to the head at 7 meters, are dead easy. Ditto 15 and 25. 25 meter snap headshots against the timer is impressive and very doable with the ACOG.

Personally, I prefer the crosshair (amber) setup. This is good because I was using my sister's carbine and that's all she has on her long weapons.

Brou mentioned the tactical simulator. We did 3 separate simulations, ranges from 7 to 275 meters with shoot/no shoot targets and hostage targets mandating a good ocular headshot on paper. Putting rounds on the 275 meter steel target was simply not an issue for the ACOG. I am a huge fan of these since I have done the practical rifle class a bunch of times with them (and taken home the highest award for the class with an Amber crosshair Compact 3x24 ACOG twice)

Brouhaha mentioned that my rifle functioned flawlessly. This is correct, but it wasn't mine. Ammo was indeed XM193 Lot 52. I went through something like 800 rounds without cleaning the weapon even once. No malfunctions.


newbushmaster asked:
After purchasing a few different ARs in the past couple of years, I have come to the conclusion that I hate the A2 grip. It is to rough on my hand and doesn't feel right.

After hauling your rifle around for four days, did the A2 begin to feel rough?



My sister started sticking a yellow foamy earplug in-between the grip and the trigger guard of her ARs long ago. She saw someone doing it somewhere sometime. Since that addition I've never had a problem with the A2 grips. (The trapdoor ones are the best because you can fit a spare parts kit in there). What you do learn, once you've done about 70 rifle clearing drills against the clock, is that you will rip up the fingers on your support hand operating the charging handle. I highly recommend the Tac Latch for this reason. That along with some cloth tape (as Brou advises) solves the problem.



Forest asks:
Brou,
Was there any night work? Particularly regarding the use of lights?


Yes, there was in this class and we tend to do something exotic at night whenever there is a night shoot, which there is in every 4 day class. One class we had 5 members of a California Law Enforcement organization's SWAT team. We used their unmarked car strobes/blue and reds to light up the course and shoot on paper with just the blue and reds going. That was interesting. We've also used parachute flares and road flares, backlighting, tracers (red and green) to demonstrate low/exotic lighting environments. Yes, also we drilled with flashlights (mounted and unmounted).



Forest also asks:
I found a washout problem with my TA50-2 under specific conditions at night with a light. If the light was 'just right' and the target reflective enough - in the right color range - the reticule would 'washout'. Just enough reflextive illumination to illuminate the reticule to 'gray' - all other times I had a nice amber reticule (no light) or a black reticule (lots of reflective light).


I've done a lot of "kill room" work including designing one for a European counter-terrorist training program. We actually tried to get light scenarios that produced that washout effect for various optics. (We set up a disco once with lots of red in an effort to try and mess with red-dots and such, with GREAT success I might add). I find that the Compact ACOG in amber is the hardest to mess up.

All in all I find that as far as civilian training goes, Frontsight is among the best.

Bring everything you need though. Their proshop is REALLY expensive. I get a discount as a member but it amounts to "20% off our 70% marked up products!"

Disclaimer/disclosure: My sister bought me a silver membership as a gift so people should add salt to my comments accordingly but I don't make any money or anything from FS or anything so...
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:39:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 9:46:51 PM EST by Austrian]

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
What were the primary rifles most people bought with them? Mostly AR's, or other things?



The course usually is about 75% ARs.

I have seen: Real M4s, Colt Commandos, M1 Scouts/M14s, 7mm Mags, a variety of bolt guns (Scouts are popular), AKs (74s and 47s), Sig 550s, Sig 551s and Sig 552s (my sister), FALs, HK 91s, 93s. People who win the Mano a Mano and score the best tend to be AR system users with optics. I rarely see Red Dots do well. It's the 200 meter shots that keep them out of the running.

Edited to add: AR10s too. Or BAR10s as one instructor would insist.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:40:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
I want to do one these bad.

Did you have a camelbak or hydration system on?




Nah. We brought Gatorade. They have the powdered stuff there along with cold water in coolers. You have no problem keeping hydrated unless you try to dehydrate.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:14:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 5:18:28 AM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
I doubt you'll get a reflective target to test your problem, however.



I've found brown cardboard, aluminum back wall insulation, and the Gunsite targets (which are basically a brown camo) can produce the effect.

If its TOO reflective (shiney metal or mirror) then I get a black reticule...

Wierd.

Anyway thanks for your comments guys, I'm begining to wonder if I should send my unit in for a check up.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:29:16 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:41:26 AM EST
$200 for 4 days?


Damn looks like I never to go to FS.


Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:52:47 AM EST
Brouhaha, thanks for the fine thread!

A couple of questions about your compact ACOG set up... did you have any issues with eye relief? In other words, did your ARMS# 40 prevent you from mounting the ACOG far enough back to be readily useable?

Also, I see you have it mounted in an ARMS # 19S... did you have any problems with the front sight intruding into your sight picture?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:07:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Brouhaha, thanks for the fine thread!

A couple of questions about your compact ACOG set up... did you have any issues with eye relief? In other words, did your ARMS# 40 prevent you from mounting the ACOG far enough back to be readily useable?

Also, I see you have it mounted in an ARMS # 19S... did you have any problems with the front sight intruding into your sight picture?

Thanks.



I actually LIKE the shadow of the front sight post as it is an immediate and easy indicator of any parallax view in the scope without taking your eye off the crosshairs. Unless I'm actually looking for it I never see the shadow.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:09:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:13:50 AM EST
Excellant report and Q&A.

Tagged.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:18:53 AM EST
I'm a member at Front Sight and have found the quality of the instruction to be excellent. I haven't taken any four day classes yet, but I look forward to it in the spring.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:23:58 AM EST
FWIW, I never had a problem shooting at 200 meters with my Comp ML2. First round hits aren't an issue if you do your part. I have the 4 MOA dot version.

Our shoot-off at 223 was 1 hit to a 100 meter plate standing, one hit to a 200 meter plate standing to whatever you wanted (prone, usually). 2 round drills were common with aimpoint. I did it a few times myself.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:28:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 10:28:55 AM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:32:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 10:34:05 AM EST by NYPatriot]
Thanks for the quick reply guys!

One last question... how difficult was it to quickly pick up the crosshairs when using the scope in BAC mode?

Do you think that the Triangle reticile would be faster?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:33:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Thanks for the quick reply guys!

One last question... how difficult was it to quickly pick up the crosshairs when using the scope in BAC mode?



No problem at all.


Do you think that the Triangle would be faster?


No, and it covers up targets over 200 when you have to do a hold over.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:45:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Austrian:
No, and it covers up targets over 200 when you have to do a hold over.



Why would you do a hold over at 200y?

I keep my triangle's tip zeroed for 50y/200M. At 200 I'd just put the point where I want the bullet to go. Even at 300M it's only a 9" drop so put tip to throat and round drops in the chest cavity.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:02:04 AM EST
"The rifles we brought: (Mine) Bushmaster lower, M93a stock, Accuracy Speaks trigger, Bushmaster upper, Colt 16" M4 1/7 barrel, phantom FH, 3x24 compact ACOG (red crosshair). Only malfunctions came from a single 20rd mag that has since been marked as a range mag. Austrian brought a bone-stock Bushmaster A3 HBAR 1/9 with a 3x24 compact ACOG (Amber crosshair). Function of his rifle was flawless, as far as I know. We only used 20 round mags."



Is it a problem to shoot 55 grain rounds out of a 1/7 barrel? Does it hurt accuracy much, or do damage to the barrel rifling????
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:06:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 11:09:18 AM EST by Austrian]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Austrian:
No, and it covers up targets over 200 when you have to do a hold over.



Why would you do a hold over at 200y?

I keep my triangle's tip zeroed for 50y/200M. At 200 I'd just put the point where I want the bullet to go. Even at 300M it's only a 9" drop so put tip to throat and round drops in the chest cavity.



See above. No holdover required at 200. I find the triangle distracting with any holdover for elevation. Now we are down to personal preference though. Your mileage may vary.

I never have problems picking up the crosshairs with BAC or at long range. I've gotten Distinguished Graduate several times at Front Sight with my sister's 3x24 amber crosshairs. But then, that is the magic 1:9 rifle that shoots 77 grain NATO out to 300 with no stabilization issues.

If she ever parts with it I suspect the ad will read:

"For Sale, +3 Magic 16" Bushmaster Carbine."
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:12:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Austrian:
I find the triangle distracting with any holdover for elevation. Now we are down to personal preference though.



Agrreed, this is a common discussion - which reticle is 'better', it's all about preference. I guess it's why Trijicon offers 3 styles in the Compact line.

Personally I dislike the crosshairs at CQB ranges (I find them too slow to pickup) but they are nicer at extended ranges. For me the Triangle is a great compromise reticule - fast to pick up in CQB and sufficiently precise for realisitc longer range shots.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:31:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Austrian:
I find the triangle distracting with any holdover for elevation. Now we are down to personal preference though.



Agrreed, this is a common discussion - which reticle is 'better', it's all about preference. I guess it's why Trijicon offers 3 styles in the Compact line.

Personally I dislike the crosshairs at CQB ranges (I find them too slow to pickup) but they are nicer at extended ranges. For me the Triangle is a great compromise reticule - fast to pick up in CQB and sufficiently precise for realisitc longer range shots.




I won't disagree here. I could probably spend some time with the triangle and do very well. At present I just have a "if it ain't broke" approach through. Crosshair "ain't broke" for me yet so...

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:44:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:45:02 AM EST
Would the Aimpoint 3x magnifier help at those longer ranges? Or is it really an issue involving the size of the recticle rather than being able to see the target?
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top