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Posted: 4/1/2011 10:36:26 PM EDT
I'm just curious how those on arfcom, who have switched faith, feel currently. Is there a major difference? Does it affect the way you act? Is your attitude affected by it? Do you feel better or worse? Was the transitional period difficult for you?

I'll start with myself. I was a Christian at one time. As a Christian, I was quite a bit more moral than I am now. However, I'm generally still very good, but I don't feel any regret at all for somethings, which were sins to me previously. For example, speeding, pornography/sex, drinking, et cetera. I also began to see wealth, power, and pride and the lust/pursuit of them not as wrong, but as something noble. Since my change, my social life has been affected. Instead of worrying about the beliefs of others, I began to become less apprehensive in social situations, and more easy going. When I was in the transitional stages, it was extremely difficult for me. There were many long tear filled prayers, and there were many nights where sobbing agony instead of sleep occupied my time in bed. Yet, once I "changed" I felt just about the same, maybe even slightly better.
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 10:58:19 AM EDT
I feel much better. More free, and more at peace with God since I rejected organized religion. I still believe in God, I just don't believe in man's desire to use my relationship with God as a way to gain power, money, and control the population.

Read "The World's sixteen Crucified Saviors", first published in about 1875. It explains a great deal about where most religions come from. Few people realize that there are so many religions in the world that have such similar histories about their savior having virgin birth, being the son of God (or Gods), and returning from the dead. Christianity is just another offshoot of the same theme.

However, I seldom tell people who get comfort with their religion about it. There is nothing to be gained if I try to take away whatever it is that gives someone else comfort...whether I believe that belief is factually true or not. To take away someone else's comfort is simply unkind. The only reason I post this in this thread is because the question was asked how I feel now that I have changed my belief system.
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 3:03:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2011 5:03:56 PM EDT by T1NMAN]
You guys hit the nail on the head.

I truly believe that the most miserable people in the world are the ones who live under Religious systems that tell them that they must keep “doing the right things” or living the “good old fashioned wholesome life” that their religious system demands in order to make God happy and thus get to heaven.

Many of the religions of the world blatantly teach that your eternal destination depends squarely on the things that you do or don’t do.
They are more than happy to make up a list that might include some logical things like not committing adultery adding in special rules such as stringent diets, dress or condct with the point being that at the end of life you have to have kept more rules then you have broken.
The goal being that the eternal “good” vs. “bad” scale tips to the good in your favor when your heart beats its last time.
Essentially they try and force their actions and rules into a religious mold that conforms to whatever their society deems fit.
They have a change in actions…but not a change in heart!
Religion can be summed up by the notion that “if I do enough good…God will love me and I will earn my salvation.”
It easy to spot this idea in many of the world’s religions but it becomes a little trickier when we look at the Churches in America because most of us have heard of this book called The Bible and a man called Jesus who claims to be the only way to God.
So instead of reading his message for what it is we like to modify…change it to fit our religious systems.
We don’t mind Jesus so much as long as he stays in the background and lets us keep this notion that our religious systems…our effort is very important when it comes to our salvation.
Jesus is ok as long as he accepts our hard earned merit in addition to his grace.
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 3:04:25 PM EDT
Here is the main problem; Jesus claimed to be The Only way to God!
He made bold claims like “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life…no man comes to The Father but by me.”
That message just ticks us off because it means that His way is the only way and that means that if our way doesn’t reflect his…our way is nothing but deception and a lie!
Millions of “Good Folk” don’t like that message because Jesus tells us that being “generally very good” still falls short of Gods standards….to stand before our Creator “general good” doesn’t cut it.
Jesus told the most perfect religious people of his day that unless they repented of sin they would die and spend eternity separated from God in judgment and torment.
He went on to further state that even the most vile murderer or rampant prostitute who repented and believed his message would enter heaven before they did.
We like to think that it was the sinners that didn’t like Jesus when in fact it was the most pious religious people of his day.
It was the guys who obeyed every single religious rule in action but their hearts were still filled with Pride, Lust and Greed.
They had a shiny religious exterior but Jesus said that it was deceptive because they were like white and shine coffins…nice to look at on the outside but filled with death and rot on the inside.
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 3:06:48 PM EDT
Jesus told them that they didn’t change from Loving God to hating or ignoring God…but that in their heart they never loved God at all!
Jesus said that men simply cannot serve two masters.
We might say that we did or do…..but we will love one and hate the other…we may have the Jesus sticker on our car…but our heart is far from Him.
While we heard the message in our ears our hearts were like stony ground we may have once heard the Gospel but when it sprouted it withered and died because it didn’t take root in our heart.
We might like to think that we left God but Jesus tells us that we never loved Him or we would have never left Him. The Apostle John puts it like this
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”1 john 2
Many folks like to add Jesus to their religion but they don’t want Jesus to change their heart.
They are content to live in their sin instead of turning to the Cross in repentance.
Salvation through Religion is difficult because it is impossible we agonize over the wickedness in our heart because we know that there is no way we can root it out on our own…so we go one of two ways.
We leave our religion or add more to our religion….but we never hand it all over to Jesus Christ.
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 3:09:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2011 3:10:58 PM EDT by T1NMAN]
Jesus never claimed to have come from a certain point in history he claimed to be one with God before History and the Hinge point of History where Religion would meet Atonement and The Law would meet Grace.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God at One with God well before a book was written in 1875.
Jesus wasn’t concerned about people being comfortable in their own religious system but called them out of their religion into repentance.
He tells them to set aside their rules for salvation and look to Him for Salvation.
He tells them to reject the notion that good works can save but to do good works because they have been saved….that a man cannot be saved through religious conduct but that man must be born again!
Jesus tells men that they would not be condemned only because of their bad deeds…. but because they rejected Him.
Jesus claimed to be The Light of the world… but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.
Jesus also tells us that the Good News is very simple….those that are truly seeking Truth…those who want to exchange a broken religious systems that creates a burden for the Truth that sets men free…those men will come to the Light that is only found in Jesus Christ.
John Chapter 3
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 3:17:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2011 5:07:11 PM EDT by T1NMAN]
But in the end perhaps Jesus was only a liar who made crazy claims to be able to forgive sins…to reconcile men to God.
He certainly separated himself from the “Worlds Sixteen saviors” through his claim to be the only way to God.
Jesus said that He was the only way, the only door, the only path to God…but, it is also a free a gift… not to those that attempt to earn Him through effort… but simply reach for Him in repentance.
The Message of the Cross is that men can stop trying to bleed for God….simply understand that God has come and bled for us!

" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Col chapter 1
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 7:09:06 PM EDT
Great- I used to be an atheist... But now I know the Gospel of Christ as the very power of God
Link Posted: 4/2/2011 8:08:51 PM EDT
Strangely, I am much less apprehensive about death, my own mortality, and the mortality of my loved ones since I became an agnostic/atheist.
Link Posted: 4/3/2011 5:46:47 AM EDT
One thing over looked when compareing what is written in the bible. Salvation is a gift of God not of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Here is an illustation of the differance.
Jesus And Religions On a Sinking Man
According to an old legend, a man became lost in his travels and wandered into a bed of quicksand.
Confucius saw the man’s predicament and said, “It is evident that men should stay out of places such as this.”
Next, Buddha observed the situation and said, “Let that man’s plight be a lesson to the rest of the world.”
Then Mohammed came by and said to the sinking man, “Alas, it is the Will of God.”
Finally Jesus appeared. “Take my hand, brother,” He said, “and I will save you.”
Link Posted: 4/3/2011 7:51:00 AM EDT
Once I left Catholicism behind, I felt like a massive weight was off my shoulders. It was obvious to me, that it was not my path, but I kept going..and going..and getting more miserable by the day.

I left it behind in my late teens and went into a mildly hedonistic period in my 20s, which while it was fun, got old. Yeah..drinking and nailing as many waitresses/counter girls/pastry girls as I could was great.but..it just got to be empty.

When I ran into Buddhism a year or so back, I felt a resonance, and I have stuck with it since.

The Buddha was not a fan of blind faith; he taught that you must not take his word(or anyone's for that matter!) for it,you must go out and experience it for yourself. The daily sitting meditations(ZaZen) have been great for helping me handle day to day stress and calming my mind, not to mention helping me controll any strong emotion, epsc anger. Doing my best to live and stay focused on here and now(Mindfullness), has helped me in daily life, as I am starting to see the things I have missed in the past. As I integrate more and more of the Dharma(the teachings of Gautama) into my life, it clarifies things and from there, there is a bit more inspiration to truly live..not live in fear.

I am not saying it is the best faith over all others, as there is no one way to find Englightenment, or God..but I have found my path. I hope others can find theirs, whatever it is they believe in..or don't.

BTW, here are a few clarifications about Buddhism:
-Gautama Buddha was not, divine or a god in ANY way. In the Sutras(the texts of the Buddha), he says over and over he is not god, just a teacher who has found Enlightenment and offers his teachings to others. Buddhists do not worship Gautama..his statue is bowed to as a sign of respect for a great teacher and when you bow to the Buddha, you are bowing to the Buddha in yourself as all living beings have Buddha nature in them.
-Buddhism is very agnotic..there is not a central god of any sort. The Buddha taught that if Devas(Gods) do exist, they are stuck in their own decaying worlds, and to worship them gains little in the path of enlightenment. He pretty much kept any sort of god out of the equation.
-The Dalai Lama is not the high priest of Buddhism worldwide; He is the head of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition Much like other faiths, Buddhism has many Traditions, and Tibetan is one of the more famous. There is one Major division-Therevada("Way of the Elders") and Mahayana(The "Large Boat")..Zen/Chan, Tibetan Buddhism and Pure land are the most famous of the Mahayana.




Link Posted: 4/3/2011 9:15:27 AM EDT
Here is a question about Christianity that no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer to.

Jesus says that the ONLY way to God is through him. There are many cultures and people in the world who, for one reason or another, have never heard of Jesus or Christianity. Are all those people doomed to Hell? And if so, what does that damnation of people who never got the chance to choose Christianity or not say about Christianity?
Link Posted: 4/3/2011 5:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2011 5:43:37 PM EDT by cubanchurchill]
Originally Posted By Genin:
Here is a question about Christianity that no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer to.

Jesus says that the ONLY way to God is through him. There are many cultures and people in the world who, for one reason or another, have never heard of Jesus or Christianity. Are all those people doomed to Hell? And if so, what does that damnation of people who never got the chance to choose Christianity or not say about Christianity?


It is said that the word of God will be heard by every ear and then will people be judged by either accepting or not.... Think about this way- if a baby was to die would it go to heaven ? yes... If an adult who heard the gospel and decided not to accept- would they get into heaven when they died ? no...

spelling

Link Posted: 4/3/2011 6:34:54 PM EDT
What about an adult who was never exposed to the gospel, and therefore never had a chance to accept or reject it? What happens to them. I would presume that original sin says they all go to hell...just because they weren't exposed to the gospel.

It makes sense that those who reject the gospel won't have much luck.

It just strikes me as a bit harsh that God would condemn people who he created when they never had the chance to accept or reject the gospel. But, reality is often harsh.
Link Posted: 4/3/2011 9:37:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Strangely, I am much less apprehensive about death, my own mortality, and the mortality of my loved ones since I became an agnostic/atheist.

Weird, I am completely the opposite. When I started believing in a creator, I found the peace of mind I'd been longing for.

Link Posted: 4/3/2011 10:25:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2011 11:32:00 PM EDT by ankratz]
Censored
Link Posted: 4/4/2011 3:57:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ankratz:


Pejoratives belong in General Discussion.
Link Posted: 4/4/2011 4:23:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Genin:
What about an adult who was never exposed to the gospel, and therefore never had a chance to accept or reject it? What happens to them. I would presume that original sin says they all go to hell...just because they weren't exposed to the gospel.

It makes sense that those who reject the gospel won't have much luck.

It just strikes me as a bit harsh that God would condemn people who he created when they never had the chance to accept or reject the gospel. But, reality is often harsh.


Think about it like this, what corner of the world has the gospel not reached? just about no where... We have placed Christians in every scary, wet ,dry, cold, and hot place on the earth. But I'll be back... Let me see what I can locate to support either way about our conversation...

Link Posted: 4/4/2011 6:31:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:
Originally Posted By Genin:
What about an adult who was never exposed to the gospel, and therefore never had a chance to accept or reject it? What happens to them. I would presume that original sin says they all go to hell...just because they weren't exposed to the gospel.

It makes sense that those who reject the gospel won't have much luck.

It just strikes me as a bit harsh that God would condemn people who he created when they never had the chance to accept or reject the gospel. But, reality is often harsh.


Think about it like this, what corner of the world has the gospel not reached? just about no where... We have placed Christians in every scary, wet ,dry, cold, and hot place on the earth. But I'll be back... Let me see what I can locate to support either way about our conversation...




Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously.1 It seems there will be a stricter judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.2 Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.3 Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.4 The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus- Romans 2:14-16


From what this said- if by some odd chance you have never heard the gospel- you will not be judged as harsh as someone that has heard and rejected it. By this- every man has an inherent knowledge of God's law in his heart. The difference between right and wrong. If you could somehow manage to follow some of it you might stand a chance..Given mans awfully sinful nature it's hard to imagine one could. But, God's grace and mercy are limitless and so is his wisdom.


Link Posted: 4/6/2011 11:59:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Strangely, I am much less apprehensive about death, my own mortality, and the mortality of my loved ones since I became an agnostic/atheist.


Forgive me if this comes across as blunt, but that is a positively irrational view of death for an atheist to hold. It is even more irrational when considering the prime directive of any biological organism.
Link Posted: 4/6/2011 5:58:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Strangely, I am much less apprehensive about death, my own mortality, and the mortality of my loved ones since I became an agnostic/atheist.


Forgive me if this comes across as blunt, but that is a positively irrational view of death for an atheist to hold. It is even more irrational when considering the prime directive of any biological organism.


I disagree (although I did preface it by saying 'strangely.')

Think of it this way: I am not worried about whether I will get into heaven or burn in hell. Whether or not I will see my loved ones again is of no concern to me. I am not worried about the hereafter, so I can live every day here to the fullest.
Link Posted: 4/6/2011 6:44:57 PM EDT
Think of it this way: I am not worried about whether I will get into heaven or burn in hell. Whether or not I will see my loved ones again is of no concern to me. I am not worried about the hereafter, so I can live every day here to the fullest.


+1

I'd like to add that I feel being a moral human being under this mindset is more personally rewarding, as you do the right thing because it's the right thing, not as a means of admission to the afterlife.
Link Posted: 4/14/2011 9:10:21 PM EDT
I was raised in the church and it ruined my life. I was a self-righteous sanctimonious, moralistic, condescending ass, just like everyone else in the church. I had God in my pocket, and if you didn't like that, then you had a problem with God, not me.

The problem was that the more I read and understood the Bible, the more it disagreed with church dogma. My initial solution was to find a church that actually followed the Bible. I joined and left several churches until I realized that the problems were not with the churches, but with the Bible.

Much of the Bible doesn't make sense. One cannot live the way Jesus said because it does not make sense. You cannot sell everything you have, give it to the poor and wait around for Jesus to return. That's an immoral thing to do to your wife and children. Don't expect God to take care of you. If that happens, it doesn't happen in this life. I would get banned if I told you what I really think of prayer.

The main thing that doesn't make sense is that Paul and Jesus both say that Jesus is coming right back. He was coming soon, real soon. The people that heard him predict the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem would live to see his return. Only he didn't return and there's no reason to continue believing he is going too. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about 2011 A.D. No prophecy, nothing.

People have been cutting and stitching the New Testament since before it was written down to explain this away. They have continued doing it for nearly 2,000 years. I'm sure people here will try to do the same thing here. I don't accept their arguments. When people start making the Bible say whatever they want it to say, then it becomes meaningless. I see no reason that the God who created the universe would need to talk in riddles that only the cognoscenti could understand. That would be, in fact, Gnosticism. The fact is, Jesus was simply and obviously mistaken.
Link Posted: 4/15/2011 3:48:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2011 4:29:16 PM EDT by TheFlynDutchman]
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:
Originally Posted By Genin:
Here is a question about Christianity that no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer to.

Jesus says that the ONLY way to God is through him. There are many cultures and people in the world who, for one reason or another, have never heard of Jesus or Christianity. Are all those people doomed to Hell? And if so, what does that damnation of people who never got the chance to choose Christianity or not say about Christianity?


It is said that the word of God will be heard by every ear and then will people be judged by either accepting or not.... Think about this way- if a baby was to die would it go to heaven ? yes... If an adult who heard the gospel and decided not to accept- would they get into heaven when they died ? no...

spelling



Here is my issue with that line of thinking, & one of the very reasons I am an atheist. You are going to tell me that the god who supposedly loves me, & has given me free will & the power of thought & logic will condemn me to an eternity in HELL, for not believing in him when there is no irrefutable proof of his existance ? Not only that, but for my short stint here on Earth will determine what my destiny is for an eternity ? Shit, even a serial killer only gets life or the needle.......We're talking eons here..... Its all BS that was thought up to keep people in line. One of the other issues I have with the whole concept of a god is heaven & hell itself. Why does an omnipoten & omnipresent god even allow hell to or the devil to exist ? He has the ability to do away with both. Why has he not ? Why does he allow other religions ? It makes no sense, but I'm sure to ancient man, he didn't question these belief systems either out of fear of retribution from his fellow man or from his supposed god. Then people will always tell you that you should believe "just in case". But doesn't this god who everyone claims knows everything really know then that I am faking my belief "just in case" ?? again, makes no sense. If your god is going to punish me for an eternity for exercising the free will that he supposedly gave me, then so be it. Doesn't sound like he loves me after all then.

Edit: I kind of hijacked the thread there with my rant. My parents weren't as disgusted with my "change in belief" as I thought they would be, its my sister who calls me a heathen because I "came out" as an atheist. I don't really consider it a change in belief, I was only "believing" as I was indoctrinated to do so by my parents originally, and I came into atheism on my own without any "evil atheist mongers" forcing their will upon me. Thats the difference between atheists & theists. For most of us, its a journey that we have taken ourselves, & fought with ourselves. Previously our beliefs were set by our parents, & their beliefs.
Link Posted: 4/15/2011 6:33:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:
Originally Posted By Genin:
Here is a question about Christianity that no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer to.

Jesus says that the ONLY way to God is through him. There are many cultures and people in the world who, for one reason or another, have never heard of Jesus or Christianity. Are all those people doomed to Hell? And if so, what does that damnation of people who never got the chance to choose Christianity or not say about Christianity?


It is said that the word of God will be heard by every ear and then will people be judged by either accepting or not.... Think about this way- if a baby was to die would it go to heaven ? yes... If an adult who heard the gospel and decided not to accept- would they get into heaven when they died ? no...

spelling



Here is my issue with that line of thinking, & one of the very reasons I am an atheist. You are going to tell me that the god who supposedly loves me, & has given me free will & the power of thought & logic will condemn me to an eternity in HELL, for not believing in him when there is no irrefutable proof of his existance ? Not only that, but for my short stint here on Earth will determine what my destiny is for an eternity ? Shit, even a serial killer only gets life or the needle.......We're talking eons here..... Its all BS that was thought up to keep people in line. One of the other issues I have with the whole concept of a god is heaven & hell itself. Why does an omnipoten & omnipresent god even allow hell to or the devil to exist ? He has the ability to do away with both. Why has he not ? Why does he allow other religions ? It makes no sense, but I'm sure to ancient man, he didn't question these belief systems either out of fear of retribution from his fellow man or from his supposed god. Then people will always tell you that you should believe "just in case". But doesn't this god who everyone claims knows everything really know then that I am faking my belief "just in case" ?? again, makes no sense. If your god is going to punish me for an eternity for exercising the free will that he supposedly gave me, then so be it. Doesn't sound like he loves me after all then.

Edit: I kind of hijacked the thread there with my rant. My parents weren't as disgusted with my "change in belief" as I thought they would be, its my sister who calls me a heathen because I "came out" as an atheist. I don't really consider it a change in belief, I was only "believing" as I was indoctrinated to do so by my parents originally, and I came into atheism on my own without any "evil atheist mongers" forcing their will upon me. Thats the difference between atheists & theists. For most of us, its a journey that we have taken ourselves, & fought with ourselves. Previously our beliefs were set by our parents, & their beliefs.



If you could spend a short time with me and see how God moves with people that live in places that you will probably never know- you would more than likley change your mind. I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here. You see- Jesus wasn't sent to keep people in line, not even to judge... The laws sent by God were to show people that their ways were sinful and not to control them. He gave you a choice because of love and for love- to show he loved you and for you to show you love him- by choice... Don't let that other mess you ranted about confuse you brother.. A bit of knowledge about God, Jesus, and the bible and you wont sing the same tune.. And remember- there is a big difference between a religous/ Christian and the real thing- " love".. They either got it or they don't.. You see the religous people hung Jesus on the cross... The real people told the story about who he was and what his death was for... Take care buddy and I pray you come to a very different end

Link Posted: 4/15/2011 7:04:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:

If you could spend a short time with me and see how God moves with people that live in places that you will probably never know- you would more than likley change your mind. I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here. You see- Jesus wasn't sent to keep people in line, not even to judge... The laws sent by God were to show people that their ways were sinful and not to control them. He gave you a choice because of love and for love- to show he loved you and for you to show you love him- by choice... Don't let that other mess you ranted about confuse you brother.. A bit of knowledge about God, Jesus, and the bible and you wont sing the same tune.. And remember- there is a big difference between a religous/ Christian and the real thing- " love".. They either got it or they don't.. You see the religous people hung Jesus on the cross... The real people told the story about who he was and what his death was for... Take care buddy and I pray you come to a very different end



Its not likely that you could change my mind, nor I, yours. You see I've been to some pretty crappy places, and see that people have love of god because there is nothing else to have faith in. Its funny that you chose the term "hate for jesus". I have no hate for jesus. This is a common misconception about atheists, which makes me doubt that you ever really were one. I'm not calling you a liar, what I am saying is maybe you had an experience where you felt abandoned by your god & jesus & formed some hatred & thought yourself an atheist because of this. I believe that jesus existed, I just don't believe he was the son of god, or that he died & rose again and all the malarky. Have you ever seen the Monty Python movie "The life of Brian" ??? I think it was something like that. (only without the hilarity)

Link Posted: 4/16/2011 6:23:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:

If you could spend a short time with me and see how God moves with people that live in places that you will probably never know- you would more than likley change your mind. I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here. You see- Jesus wasn't sent to keep people in line, not even to judge... The laws sent by God were to show people that their ways were sinful and not to control them. He gave you a choice because of love and for love- to show he loved you and for you to show you love him- by choice... Don't let that other mess you ranted about confuse you brother.. A bit of knowledge about God, Jesus, and the bible and you wont sing the same tune.. And remember- there is a big difference between a religous/ Christian and the real thing- " love".. They either got it or they don't.. You see the religous people hung Jesus on the cross... The real people told the story about who he was and what his death was for... Take care buddy and I pray you come to a very different end



Its not likely that you could change my mind, nor I, yours. You see I've been to some pretty crappy places, and see that people have love of god because there is nothing else to have faith in. Its funny that you chose the term "hate for jesus". I have no hate for jesus. This is a common misconception about atheists, which makes me doubt that you ever really were one. I'm not calling you a liar, what I am saying is maybe you had an experience where you felt abandoned by your god & jesus & formed some hatred & thought yourself an atheist because of this. I believe that jesus existed, I just don't believe he was the son of god, or that he died & rose again and all the malarky. Have you ever seen the Monty Python movie "The life of Brian" ??? I think it was something like that. (only without the hilarity)



Sorry- haven't seen that one- my hate meant hate for anything that could be related to God or his son for what I was ignorant in as far as how could there be? why would this happen? and so on. See all atheist have the same reasoning behind their reasons.. Just told by a different person. Each Christians has their own story to tell that's unlike any others.. But that's cool- cause I / we aint giving up on you.. So sorry- you still got a lot of love from us wierdos.. LOL Take care buddy and when you go to bed tonight know this- I'll be praying for ya and there is nothing you can do to stop me...

Link Posted: 4/16/2011 8:49:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By cubanchurchill:

If you could spend a short time with me and see how God moves with people that live in places that you will probably never know- you would more than likley change your mind. I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here. You see- Jesus wasn't sent to keep people in line, not even to judge... The laws sent by God were to show people that their ways were sinful and not to control them. He gave you a choice because of love and for love- to show he loved you and for you to show you love him- by choice... Don't let that other mess you ranted about confuse you brother.. A bit of knowledge about God, Jesus, and the bible and you wont sing the same tune.. And remember- there is a big difference between a religous/ Christian and the real thing- " love".. They either got it or they don't.. You see the religous people hung Jesus on the cross... The real people told the story about who he was and what his death was for... Take care buddy and I pray you come to a very different end



Its not likely that you could change my mind, nor I, yours. You see I've been to some pretty crappy places, and see that people have love of god because there is nothing else to have faith in. Its funny that you chose the term "hate for jesus". I have no hate for jesus. This is a common misconception about atheists, which makes me doubt that you ever really were one. I'm not calling you a liar, what I am saying is maybe you had an experience where you felt abandoned by your god & jesus & formed some hatred & thought yourself an atheist because of this. I believe that jesus existed, I just don't believe he was the son of god, or that he died & rose again and all the malarky. Have you ever seen the Monty Python movie "The life of Brian" ??? I think it was something like that. (only without the hilarity)



Sorry- haven't seen that one- my hate meant hate for anything that could be related to God or his son for what I was ignorant in as far as how could there be? why would this happen? and so on. See all atheist have the same reasoning behind their reasons.. Just told by a different person. Each Christians has their own story to tell that's unlike any others.. But that's cool- cause I / we aint giving up on you.. So sorry- you still got a lot of love from us wierdos.. LOL Take care buddy and when you go to bed tonight know this- I'll be praying for ya and there is nothing you can do to stop me...



I wouldn't ask you to stop....Not my thing. Here IS my thing though: Love aint just exclusive to christians. I don't consider myself a hateful /spiteful person. I worked that all out in my 20"s & 30"s, I actually feel freer since I have let my family know I am an Atheist than I ever did when I felt I had to hide my emotions & thoughts from them.

Take it easy, & thanks for the conversation.

Link Posted: 4/16/2011 9:07:56 PM EDT
I was raised Protestant. I went to Church every Sunday in the early years, less later on when my mother divorced for the 3rd time and we moved pretty far away, which was ~5th grade for me. After that, I started questioning my beliefs and looking at the alternatives. By 16 or so I'd come to the realization that none of the major religions of the world "had anything" on the others. At their core, they were all the same: One group of people proclaiming they were right, everyone else was wrong, with no more or less compelling proof than any of the others.

I didn't stop at mainstream religions, I read religious and philosophical texts from every corner of the world and every era. I made friends with Jews, Taoists, Buddhists, Wiccans, Satanists, Hindus.. you name it, just to talk to them about their beliefs. I was looking for anything convincing.

At this point, I started reading more pure philosophy and less dogma. I read just about everything, but there were a few names that stuck with me over the years; Ouspensky, Nietzsche, Spinoza, and Rand. Zen Buddhism held a certain appeal as well.

Today, I don't believe in anything metaphysical at all, and I'm better for it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2011 7:13:47 AM EDT
Allen, I know how you feel. I was born a Christian and while young, just could not buy it. As I grew older I studied many of the world's faiths. I was drawn to Judiasm, converted, and continued to study. As I went back I saw that there was an earlier faith that Judiasm came from. One that makes a lot of sense. And for the Christians here, I took Jeshova's teaching at their Jewish origin. They fit very well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2011 10:51:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2011 10:54:17 AM EDT by chrisinohio]
Cubanchurchill: If you were an atheist (with no belief in any god or gods) how could you hate Jesus? I'm not sure I can understand hating something you don't believe in.

With that being said, I was baptized a Catholic. When I was 12 my family left the Catholic Church and we joined a Disciples of Christ Church. While I enjoyed the feeling of "family" it gave me I always questioned church teachings and the bible in particular. The contradictions therein gave me great pause and I spent a good deal of time trying to work them out to no avail.

As I grew older, read more (especially the bible) and began to question more I realized that the church was really nothing more than a social club of sorts. After my parents passed away I became a true apostate and haven't been to church for anything besides weddings and funerals in many years.

How do I feel? Well, as a child I was consumed with a fear of dying and going to hell. That was a great sticking point for me. Luckily I've left it far behind and feel that I'm a much healthier person. And now I do go things because they are good, not because I'm afraid of going to a made up place to burn for an eternity.

Chris

[/quote]I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here.
[/quote]

Link Posted: 4/19/2011 11:01:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Strangely, I am much less apprehensive about death, my own mortality, and the mortality of my loved ones since I became an agnostic/atheist.


Forgive me if this comes across as blunt, but that is a positively irrational view of death for an atheist to hold. It is even more irrational when considering the prime directive of any biological organism.


I disagree (although I did preface it by saying 'strangely.')

Think of it this way: I am not worried about whether I will get into heaven or burn in hell. Whether or not I will see my loved ones again is of no concern to me. I am not worried about the hereafter, so I can live every day here to the fullest.


Guess what? I feel exactly the same way, yet I am Catholic.
Link Posted: 4/20/2011 4:32:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chrisinohio:
Cubanchurchill: If you were an atheist (with no belief in any god or gods) how could you hate Jesus? I'm not sure I can understand hating something you don't believe in.

With that being said, I was baptized a Catholic. When I was 12 my family left the Catholic Church and we joined a Disciples of Christ Church. While I enjoyed the feeling of "family" it gave me I always questioned church teachings and the bible in particular. The contradictions therein gave me great pause and I spent a good deal of time trying to work them out to no avail.

As I grew older, read more (especially the bible) and began to question more I realized that the church was really nothing more than a social club of sorts. After my parents passed away I became a true apostate and haven't been to church for anything besides weddings and funerals in many years.

How do I feel? Well, as a child I was consumed with a fear of dying and going to hell. That was a great sticking point for me. Luckily I've left it far behind and feel that I'm a much healthier person. And now I do go things because they are good, not because I'm afraid of going to a made up place to burn for an eternity.

Chris

I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here.
[/quote]

[/quote]

I think thats how most atheists feel. I say good for you.
Link Posted: 4/20/2011 5:13:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By chrisinohio:
Cubanchurchill: If you were an atheist (with no belief in any god or gods) how could you hate Jesus? I'm not sure I can understand hating something you don't believe in.

With that being said, I was baptized a Catholic. When I was 12 my family left the Catholic Church and we joined a Disciples of Christ Church. While I enjoyed the feeling of "family" it gave me I always questioned church teachings and the bible in particular. The contradictions therein gave me great pause and I spent a good deal of time trying to work them out to no avail.

As I grew older, read more (especially the bible) and began to question more I realized that the church was really nothing more than a social club of sorts. After my parents passed away I became a true apostate and haven't been to church for anything besides weddings and funerals in many years.

How do I feel? Well, as a child I was consumed with a fear of dying and going to hell. That was a great sticking point for me. Luckily I've left it far behind and feel that I'm a much healthier person. And now I do go things because they are good, not because I'm afraid of going to a made up place to burn for an eternity.

Chris

I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here.


[/quote]

I think thats how most atheists feel. I say good for you.
[/quote]

That's how I feel and I'm a Catholic. The Bible, as well as the Church, teaches to do good because it is right, not simply out of a fear of punishment. To be honest, people who tell young children to be good otherwise they will go to hell drive me nuts.
Link Posted: 4/20/2011 5:45:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By chrisinohio:
Cubanchurchill: If you were an atheist (with no belief in any god or gods) how could you hate Jesus? I'm not sure I can understand hating something you don't believe in.

With that being said, I was baptized a Catholic. When I was 12 my family left the Catholic Church and we joined a Disciples of Christ Church. While I enjoyed the feeling of "family" it gave me I always questioned church teachings and the bible in particular. The contradictions therein gave me great pause and I spent a good deal of time trying to work them out to no avail.

As I grew older, read more (especially the bible) and began to question more I realized that the church was really nothing more than a social club of sorts. After my parents passed away I became a true apostate and haven't been to church for anything besides weddings and funerals in many years.

How do I feel? Well, as a child I was consumed with a fear of dying and going to hell. That was a great sticking point for me. Luckily I've left it far behind and feel that I'm a much healthier person. And now I do go things because they are good, not because I'm afraid of going to a made up place to burn for an eternity.

Chris

I used to be a die hard atheist with more hate for Jesus in my little toe than your entire rant here.




I think thats how most atheists feel. I say good for you.
[/quote]

That's how I feel and I'm a Catholic. The Bible, as well as the Church, teaches to do good because it is right, not simply out of a fear of punishment. To be honest, people who tell young children to be good otherwise they will go to hell drive me nuts.[/quote]

Makes sense to me. Thats why I'm an atheist. Good values don't have to have the word "christian" attached to them.

Some people think if its not, you don't have any.
Link Posted: 4/21/2011 7:12:14 AM EDT
Guess I'll go against the grain of the non-belief back-patting party.

I didn't grow up in church until I was around 10 or so, then my parent's quit, and so did I. I attended a Methodist church w/ a girlfriend through most of highschool, came to know the Lord far and above what I had before. I then discovered that Christian music (in particular, hardcore and metal) could reconcile my beliefs and my music. Straightened my life out a little more, got involved in a ministry related hardcore band and worked toward what I felt was the way to God. Then the man in me caught up, and over the course of some years, while still in the band, my interest turned more to relationships/sexual things then later that turned to 'living in sin', picking up a very milk drinking habit, and pretty much a falling away from God. This continued for several years. I prayed, hoped, and saw nothing. I couldn't find or see God anywhere, no matter if I took it upon myself to pray every morning for an hour or more.

See, I didn't get it. I'd allowed my life to turn upside down and I couldn't even see it. My marriage suffered, my life suffered, everything.

Then I took a step out of my pride, out of my comfort zone and left all my sin behind, all that I put upon myself (I am not without sin, no man can be short of the Son), I laid it down and began to watch God work. I saw Him move. Truly move everything in my life closer to Him. Even through the hardest thing I've ever known (losing our little girl 2 days before her due date) I felt God there, moving things, placing things, seeing how this tragedy was to make me grow further closer to Him and the same for my family, and all our little one only had to go on to our Father to await us there.
There are struggles, there are trials, there are disappointments, but when these things come, the Lord is always there to guide, to comfort, to strengthen.

So, my faith changed, in that; what was a hollow faith, one that I let dwindle and die, by turning my worldly self over, by putting that person to rest I was able to actually find God, see God work, see God move in my life. And I look forward to serving my life with and for Him until the end of my days.
Link Posted: 4/21/2011 8:36:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2011 8:38:43 AM EDT by frogdiver]
When I got home this morning from the last of 7 midnights I believed I would have a beer or two. After the first beer I decided I believed I would have a Glenlivet instead. I am happy with my decision.
Now I am playing Rainbow Six with my kids. Yep, good decisions.
Link Posted: 4/21/2011 8:22:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Guess I'll go against the grain of the non-belief back-patting party.


Not sure what that is supposed to mean. Why is it when someone sees the merit of our argument, its back patting ? By re-affirming your belief, you are still in the majority. Try telling everyone around you including your own family, that you no longer feel the same way they do, feel their disgust, and continue to hold your ground.

When someone asks you your religion you most likely answer "christian" (or whatever denomination you prefer) and when we say "I have no religion, I'm an atheist" people look at us like we rape little kids & farm animals, then feel a need to convert/argue with us. So yea, maybe we are proud of the fact that we are able to look at people & tell them the truth, but if anyone "back pats" its your side.

Link Posted: 4/22/2011 5:46:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Guess I'll go against the grain of the non-belief back-patting party.


Not sure what that is supposed to mean. Why is it when someone sees the merit of our argument, its back patting ? By re-affirming your belief, you are still in the majority. Try telling everyone around you including your own family, that you no longer feel the same way they do, feel their disgust, and continue to hold your ground.

When someone asks you your religion you most likely answer "christian" (or whatever denomination you prefer) and when we say "I have no religion, I'm an atheist" people look at us like we rape little kids & farm animals, then feel a need to convert/argue with us. So yea, maybe we are proud of the fact that we are able to look at people & tell them the truth, but if anyone "back pats" its your side.



I'd disagree and say that it depends on where you are on all counts both online and in real life.

In real life, if you told me you were an atheist, I'd ask you your reasons why. I'd tell you how I struggled with my faith, that the truth was re-revealed to me in time at the appropriate time, that I'd keep you in my prayers and hope that you'd find your way to (or back to) the Lord.

I can't speak for everyone else, some would condemn you out of pride or insecurity. I can't condemn you, even the apostles struggled w/ doubt. But I believe that sometimes non-believers will take what Christians are called to do (give witness of the Lord's work in their life) as an offense. I could see where it would be annoying to those who don't believe, but we've been instructed to do something and we are to follow that call.

The reason you had to face a family that didn't support your actions is because they want the best for you as they see it. If they were upset because you wanted to help orphans or because you wanted to do great things for your community that would be unsettling. But despite their faults and failures, your family would only want the best for you. Sometimes we can't see the best for all the "me" in the way.

Just my opinion, take it for what you will. I only wish for everyone to receive the greatest gift I've ever known and turn from a dying world that we all are due to leave in one way or another. Not much is asked of you other than turning away from self and helping others. I don't see the pain and strain in having to believe in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit along with those simple requirements.

Again, this is all just my opinion, I'm not saying it's right, it's just what I feel.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 7:36:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Guess I'll go against the grain of the non-belief back-patting party.


Not sure what that is supposed to mean. Why is it when someone sees the merit of our argument, its back patting ? By re-affirming your belief, you are still in the majority. Try telling everyone around you including your own family, that you no longer feel the same way they do, feel their disgust, and continue to hold your ground.

When someone asks you your religion you most likely answer "christian" (or whatever denomination you prefer) and when we say "I have no religion, I'm an atheist" people look at us like we rape little kids & farm animals, then feel a need to convert/argue with us. So yea, maybe we are proud of the fact that we are able to look at people & tell them the truth, but if anyone "back pats" its your side.



I'd disagree and say that it depends on where you are on all counts both online and in real life.

In real life, if you told me you were an atheist, I'd ask you your reasons why. I'd tell you how I struggled with my faith, that the truth was re-revealed to me in time at the appropriate time, that I'd keep you in my prayers and hope that you'd find your way to (or back to) the Lord.

I can't speak for everyone else, some would condemn you out of pride or insecurity. I can't condemn you, even the apostles struggled w/ doubt. But I believe that sometimes non-believers will take what Christians are called to do (give witness of the Lord's work in their life) as an offense. I could see where it would be annoying to those who don't believe, but we've been instructed to do something and we are to follow that call.

The reason you had to face a family that didn't support your actions is because they want the best for you as they see it. If they were upset because you wanted to help orphans or because you wanted to do great things for your community that would be unsettling. But despite their faults and failures, your family would only want the best for you. Sometimes we can't see the best for all the "me" in the way.

Just my opinion, take it for what you will. I only wish for everyone to receive the greatest gift I've ever known and turn from a dying world that we all are due to leave in one way or another. Not much is asked of you other than turning away from self and helping others. I don't see the pain and strain in having to believe in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit along with those simple requirements.
Again, this is all just my opinion, I'm not saying it's right, it's just what I feel.


Here's where I take issue with what you said: There is no component there that requires me to believe in a god. I can be a good person without having "christian" attached to my name. The mere fact that you framed your response that way, tells me that you believe (or your religion tells you to believe) that atheists are selfish. I know some atheist organizations that go out & help people without making them sit through a sermon. (in essence holding their assistance ransom until you have heard the word of their god) I help people every day in my job, but if some of them knew I was an atheist, they probably wouldn't want it.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 5:24:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Guess I'll go against the grain of the non-belief back-patting party.


Not sure what that is supposed to mean. Why is it when someone sees the merit of our argument, its back patting ? By re-affirming your belief, you are still in the majority. Try telling everyone around you including your own family, that you no longer feel the same way they do, feel their disgust, and continue to hold your ground.

When someone asks you your religion you most likely answer "christian" (or whatever denomination you prefer) and when we say "I have no religion, I'm an atheist" people look at us like we rape little kids & farm animals, then feel a need to convert/argue with us. So yea, maybe we are proud of the fact that we are able to look at people & tell them the truth, but if anyone "back pats" its your side.



I'd disagree and say that it depends on where you are on all counts both online and in real life.

In real life, if you told me you were an atheist, I'd ask you your reasons why. I'd tell you how I struggled with my faith, that the truth was re-revealed to me in time at the appropriate time, that I'd keep you in my prayers and hope that you'd find your way to (or back to) the Lord.

I can't speak for everyone else, some would condemn you out of pride or insecurity. I can't condemn you, even the apostles struggled w/ doubt. But I believe that sometimes non-believers will take what Christians are called to do (give witness of the Lord's work in their life) as an offense. I could see where it would be annoying to those who don't believe, but we've been instructed to do something and we are to follow that call.

The reason you had to face a family that didn't support your actions is because they want the best for you as they see it. If they were upset because you wanted to help orphans or because you wanted to do great things for your community that would be unsettling. But despite their faults and failures, your family would only want the best for you. Sometimes we can't see the best for all the "me" in the way.

Just my opinion, take it for what you will. I only wish for everyone to receive the greatest gift I've ever known and turn from a dying world that we all are due to leave in one way or another. Not much is asked of you other than turning away from self and helping others. I don't see the pain and strain in having to believe in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit along with those simple requirements.
Again, this is all just my opinion, I'm not saying it's right, it's just what I feel.


Here's where I take issue with what you said: There is no component there that requires me to believe in a god. I can be a good person without having "christian" attached to my name. The mere fact that you framed your response that way, tells me that you believe (or your religion tells you to believe) that atheists are selfish. I know some atheist organizations that go out & help people without making them sit through a sermon. (in essence holding their assistance ransom until you have heard the word of their god) I help people every day in my job, but if some of them knew I was an atheist, they probably wouldn't want it.


And I know Christian organizations that do the same.

However, if a church were to go and help a community/group/etc and not spread the Word in the way that they feel led, then they would be going against the mission that they've been given. Their duty is to help, and to show the Love of God, and to speak of God to those that may not have had the chance to know Him. Jesus made it known that many would be offended at his Name, at his Word, and that they would not hear it. We're called to speak it anyway, to be city on a hill, to be set apart from this world and show others the path to walk.

When I mentioned turning from self, yeah, I meant selfish, but not like "you can't have any of my money, time, etc.", I mean that the world is full of people who refuse to look to the Father and the Son because it would mean denying themself things of the world. Their "life", money, sex, prestige, job, addictions, all of these things would have to be denied in order to find the true love of Christ, a true life in His way, and that's what I mean by people being unable to turn away from "self".
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 5:45:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Uberjager:
I'm just curious how those on arfcom, who have switched faith, feel currently. Is there a major difference? Does it affect the way you act? Is your attitude affected by it? Do you feel better or worse? Was the transitional period difficult for you?

I'll start with myself. I was a Christian at one time. As a Christian, I was quite a bit more moral than I am now. However, I'm generally still very good, but I don't feel any regret at all for somethings, which were sins to me previously. For example, speeding, pornography/sex, drinking, et cetera. I also began to see wealth, power, and pride and the lust/pursuit of them not as wrong, but as something noble. Since my change, my social life has been affected. Instead of worrying about the beliefs of others, I began to become less apprehensive in social situations, and more easy going. When I was in the transitional stages, it was extremely difficult for me. There were many long tear filled prayers, and there were many nights where sobbing agony instead of sleep occupied my time in bed. Yet, once I "changed" I felt just about the same, maybe even slightly better.


My actions and thought processes have not changed significantly. I was raised Roman Catholic and am in the Judaism conversion process. Honestly, the two are not much different aside from the issue of Jesus. In my formative years, I never put much stock into Christian dogma and ideology. The idea of me needing redemption from some third party seems frivolous and unnecessary to me and it has never figured into my philosophy, morality, values, etc... It really feels like I've been Jewish all along, but am now just finally waking up to it. My values aligned with the Deist approach, and Deism still forms the core of my beliefs. I could get along just fine without religion, but I feel the desire to add more dimension to my belief and become part of a community that is more closely aligned with my thoughts and values. And it's quite fun, too.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 8:43:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2011 8:45:42 AM EDT by MetalChef]
Post deleted


Link Posted: 4/26/2011 5:02:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15thur:

However, if a church were to go and help a community/group/etc and not spread the Word in the way that they feel led, then they would be going against the mission that they've been given. Their duty is to help, and to show the Love of God, and to speak of God to those that may not have had the chance to know Him. Jesus made it known that many would be offended at his Name, at his Word, and that they would not hear it. We're called to speak it anyway, to be city on a hill, to be set apart from this world and show others the path to walk.

When I mentioned turning from self, yeah, I meant selfish, but not like "you can't have any of my money, time, etc.", I mean that the world is full of people who refuse to look to the Father and the Son because it would mean denying themself things of the world. Their "life", money, sex, prestige, job, addictions, all of these things would have to be denied in order to find the true love of Christ, a true life in His way, and that's what I mean by people being unable to turn away from "self".


I understand what you are saying, but again this is where we differ: With the exception of addiction, I see no problem with money, sex, prestige, & a job. I can have all those things & still be a good person without having to say that "I sacrificed". Now if I put those things ahead of my family, then there might start to be issues. Above being a good person, why does ther always hve to be some sacrifice ? Some need to show people that because you belive in a god, you must take that crappy job & not make any real money ?
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 6:13:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:

However, if a church were to go and help a community/group/etc and not spread the Word in the way that they feel led, then they would be going against the mission that they've been given. Their duty is to help, and to show the Love of God, and to speak of God to those that may not have had the chance to know Him. Jesus made it known that many would be offended at his Name, at his Word, and that they would not hear it. We're called to speak it anyway, to be city on a hill, to be set apart from this world and show others the path to walk.

When I mentioned turning from self, yeah, I meant selfish, but not like "you can't have any of my money, time, etc.", I mean that the world is full of people who refuse to look to the Father and the Son because it would mean denying themself things of the world. Their "life", money, sex, prestige, job, addictions, all of these things would have to be denied in order to find the true love of Christ, a true life in His way, and that's what I mean by people being unable to turn away from "self".


I understand what you are saying, but again this is where we differ: With the exception of addiction, I see no problem with money, sex, prestige, & a job. I can have all those things & still be a good person without having to say that "I sacrificed". Now if I put those things ahead of my family, then there might start to be issues. Above being a good person, why does ther always hve to be some sacrifice ? Some need to show people that because you belive in a god, you must take that crappy job & not make any real money ?


The Catholic Church agrees with you and has doesn't teach that any of that stuff is bad. The teaching has been that it becomes a problem when God is replaced by a job, prestige, etc, or like you said, if you were to put them above your responsibilities to your family. If you make lots of money, great. If you live only to make lots of money, not so much.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 8:26:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:

I understand what you are saying, but again this is where we differ: With the exception of addiction, I see no problem with money, sex, prestige, & a job. I can have all those things & still be a good person without having to say that "I sacrificed". Now if I put those things ahead of my family, then there might start to be issues. Above being a good person, why does ther always hve to be some sacrifice ? Some need to show people that because you belive in a god, you must take that crappy job & not make any real money ?


The Catholic Church agrees with you and has doesn't teach that any of that stuff is bad. The teaching has been that it becomes a problem when God is replaced by a job, prestige, etc, or like you said, if you were to put them above your responsibilities to your family. If you make lots of money, great. If you live only to make lots of money, not so much.


I understand that, & it makes sense, but I don't need a god to tell me that. I can be a good person without having "christian" attached to my name as if that really solidifies the fact. You never hear anyone say "he's a good jew man" or "he's a good muslim man" its always "he's a good christian man" and you will never hear anyone say "he's a good atheist man" although you may have some people talking in whispers saying "I know he served his country, is in the American Legion, was a Police Officer & is a Firefighter/Paramedic, but did you know that guy is a fucking atheist ?"

There are a lot of people who I come in contact with at work, & at the American Legion who would be surprised to find out that I was an atheist, because I don't push it. When I say the pledge of allegiance, or the preamble to the Legion constitution, or when I come in contact with our department's chaplain I don't make a bitch about the word "god" because that isn't the appropriate place or time.

Don't take that to mean that I troll on here, but this is a different setting, which lends itself to a more open discussion about things.

Link Posted: 4/27/2011 6:58:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
Originally Posted By TheFlynDutchman:

I understand what you are saying, but again this is where we differ: With the exception of addiction, I see no problem with money, sex, prestige, & a job. I can have all those things & still be a good person without having to say that "I sacrificed". Now if I put those things ahead of my family, then there might start to be issues. Above being a good person, why does ther always hve to be some sacrifice ? Some need to show people that because you belive in a god, you must take that crappy job & not make any real money ?


The Catholic Church agrees with you and has doesn't teach that any of that stuff is bad. The teaching has been that it becomes a problem when God is replaced by a job, prestige, etc, or like you said, if you were to put them above your responsibilities to your family. If you make lots of money, great. If you live only to make lots of money, not so much.


I understand that, & it makes sense, but I don't need a god to tell me that. I can be a good person without having "christian" attached to my name as if that really solidifies the fact. You never hear anyone say "he's a good jew man" or "he's a good muslim man" its always "he's a good christian man" and you will never hear anyone say "he's a good atheist man" although you may have some people talking in whispers saying "I know he served his country, is in the American Legion, was a Police Officer & is a Firefighter/Paramedic, but did you know that guy is a fucking atheist ?"

There are a lot of people who I come in contact with at work, & at the American Legion who would be surprised to find out that I was an atheist, because I don't push it. When I say the pledge of allegiance, or the preamble to the Legion constitution, or when I come in contact with our department's chaplain I don't make a bitch about the word "god" because that isn't the appropriate place or time.

Don't take that to mean that I troll on here, but this is a different setting, which lends itself to a more open discussion about things.



It's not about what others think of me, or what I think of me. It's not about being called or thought of as a good man. It's having seen God at work in my life, feeling his love and presence, and trying to work toward eternity with Him, not toward the temporary life on this world.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:46:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15thur:

It's not about what others think of me, or what I think of me. It's not about being called or thought of as a good man. It's having seen God at work in my life, feeling his love and presence, and trying to work toward eternity with Him, not toward the temporary life on this world.


There is nothing wrong with that. For the most part I think that religious people are good people anyway, so with religion or not, I think they would act & respond the way they currently do without having to "give themselves" over to a god or religion.

You are correct that our lives are short. I just don't feel that wasting it worshiping a god who has yet to be able to verifiably prove his existence, is worth my time.

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