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Posted: 3/28/2009 9:19:40 AM EDT
Guess what, they probably are.

We are Americans. We live in the greatest country in the World. We have laxed gun laws because we feel it is right. We have it pretty damn good here.
The problem we have however is, the other countries surrounding us and afar have much crappier gun laws and control issues. If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU. The problem is not with our gun laws. We all know this. The problem we have is with open borders. Now Mexico can easily blame the US for their problems. They have for decades and it’s not going to change any time soon. But we can do something.

If you want this crap off the networks then get off your mindset and put your keyboard to work. Email the media outlets; write letters to your reps and senators. Get the info needed to defeat this crisis out into the open so we can accomplish the kinds of "Change" we need.

What we need is a closed border. Possibly heavily fortified and armed for the time being. If an immigrant wants to migrate they can submit their damn paperwork. Guess what happens when the borders close. It stops being so damn easy to just drive across with a load of smack. It also becomes really hard to just drive a shipment of US made ammo and guns back the other way. The cartels would either wage a small war on us at the border in which we (the US) could simply act accordingly and bomb the hell out of them once and for all. I am not talking about a fence here. I am talking about a wall. Bring home our troops and activate all our NG resources and put them to work along with civilian contractors and we could get the whole thing up in record time. Not to mention kick some ass in the process. Hell it would give our troops some much needed training here in the US close to home. Where if needed they can respond and react in a timely manner and not respond from half way around the globe. I say America first. Everyone else can eat a dick and fix their own problems like they should. Damn lazy bastards.

My .02


BTW just to bring your attention. The unsupporting members of this in the past are the ones accepting blame for the US to be at the fault of this only they are trying (and doing a good job at it) to divert your attention to the laxed gun laws and not that its a unsecured border issue. This is a very good opportunity to hang them out to dry via the latest and greatest media outlets and online everywhere. Write your letters and shoot off your emails. Make the facts known. We can even open a tread here in the forums to list all the outlets who need to run a piece on it. If they ignore it then we push with more coverage and emails. When Fox runs it on Becks show he can jump around and brand these assholes where it counts. Not to mention be the first to publicly release the information and pin it to them where it hurts. If we want "Change" then we have to push the envelope and crush them under their mountain of willful incompetence.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:22:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 9:22:55 AM EDT by DarkCharisma]
tl;dr the whole thing, but the problem is not with the LEGAL semi-autos or ammunition that can be purchased at gun shows; The media is pushing the idea that AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, RPGS, and GRENADES are coming from stores in the US. As we all know, those are not things you can get on the cheap and quickly from any FFL or private seller.

They're not.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:23:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:24:03 AM EDT
closing the border would never work. They would never do it. It would make America look mean.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:26:48 AM EDT
Somehow I doubt all of those select-fire M16s, AK-47s, frags and G3s are coming from the US.

Jesus...

A few of the handguns? Yeah. It's probable. Stolen from homes and smuggled back into Mexico. I'll buy that.

BUT...the current rash of violence is not from 'bangers with G19s, so let's be realistic...shall we?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:28:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 9:29:27 AM EDT by Dru]
WWID..........

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:29:49 AM EDT
Guy from calguns gets it right

original source:



"You and I Can't Buy the Guns Mexican Cartels Own

"I worked in Mexico in a border town for about five years. It was far enough from San Diego County in the Sonora Desert of Mexico that commuting several hundred miles daily was impossible. So, for a few years I lived in the city and commuted home periodically on some weekends. As crime grew out of control, I eventually moved into a place on the U.S. side and commuted daily in and out of Mexico for my own safety.

I stayed in Mexico for a Mexican holiday my first year. I don't recall the holiday. Normally, I would leave Mexico for a holiday, but it was in the middle of the week and one day was not long enough to come home. All I know is that on that particular Mexican holiday, Mexicans love to fire guns into the air. That evening as I sat on the balcony of my hotel, the gun fire that erupted in celebration was quite unbelievable. It was so intense I backed off the balcony and watched the festivities from a couple three feet in the room. We're talking war-like firing of weapons, it was that intense.

As I listened that night to the gun fire, I was somewhat shocked at the amount of fully automatic gun fire. It wasn't sporadic. It was continuous throughout the city. For a country that bans guns I thought, how in the world did they get their hands on all these full-auto weapons? Clearly what sounded like M16 fire was prolific along with 7.62 x 39 AK autos with a smattering of smaller caliber full-autos, most likely 9mm. Gun fire can be heard in most American cities on New Years, but I've never heard full-auto weapons being fired, at least not in the San Diego area.

The next day I went into work and sat down with a trusted senior Mexican manager. I looked at him and said, "I thought guns were illegal in Mexico." He chuckled and said, "So you stayed in town last night?" As the conversation progressed, it became clear that guns are as common in Mexico as tamales at Christmas. Everyone he knows, including himself, own at least one gun. And, it matters not whether it's a semi-auto or fully automatic, they're all illegal, so why stop with semi-autos? Though clearly illegal in the states in most instances, a lot of Mexicans have more firepower in terms of military weapons than we can only dream of owning here.

As time went on, parties in the city at middle class Mexican homes become a way of life. Most Mexican managers in the plant knew I was a gun wonk. As it turns out, they couldn't wait to invite me over to their place on a Friday night to show me their collection. Semi-autos, some very high-end Sigs and other European handguns were not uncommon along with piles of old revolvers. I thought I had seen everything in the states, but in Mexico it's not uncommon for people to own full-auto military rifles. Everything from an M16, UZI machine pistols and the most popular, select-fire AK47 military rifles. These are not the so-called "assault weapons" you can buy at the local gun shop in the U.S., but full select-fire military-issue rifles. Now, I know you want to know and are dying to ask; Did I see any U.S. military-issue weapons stolen from the U.S. military? Not a single one was marked with U.S.. military markings. Everything was marked with additional foreign markings on the receiver, including M16 rifles, or they had nothing at all. I saw firearms manufactured in Europe, China, Russia and South America along with U.S. manufactured weapons. I saw rifles that looked familiar with no place of manufacture, no serial number or manufacturer's logo. The information was not removed, it was never there to begin with. I can only assume they came from illegal arms manufacturers in India or Pakistan that produce copies of weapons. It was obvious that none of these firearms came from a U.S. gun shop in Tucson or San Diego. You couldn't buy them from a gun shop in the states if you tried.

It seems Mexicans have a rich heritage of firearms ownership prior to the ban in 1968. Despite the laws against owning them, they ignore it. Most Mexicans will say they need it for personal protection of themselves and their family. The other reason is they don't trust the government or local law enforcement. If they have to use it in their home for self-defense, whether they end up in jail is all dependent on how much money they can come up with, or who they know in the government. It also depends on who they shoot. But, given the alternative with high crime rates, most middle class Mexicans willingly and without reservations take the risk. Despite being able to own .22 caliber pistols or rifles, Mexican law requires them to be stored at an approved firing range. Where's the firing range I asked many times? No one knew of one. Where's the gun stores in town to buy legal guns? Gun stores? No one ever recalled seeing one anywhere in Mexico, let alone their city. I'm sure somewhere, maybe in Mexico City you might be able to buy a gun, but not in this city of almost 1.5 million residents.. And the gun traffickers know it.

Where do ordinary Mexicans get their weapons? Most buy them from a 'friend' or a friend of a friend or cousin or uncle. Where the friend gets them is not talked about. But, it seems that drug cartels in Mexico are heavily involved in gun trafficking of military weapons and related hardware. And, who are these ordinary Mexicans? They range from people who work in factories as managers and senior managers, government workers, doctors, dentists and anyone with the financial means to buy a firearm. I even ran into a couple of government bureaucrats, one a lawyer for the federal government who owns firearms. He confirmed that people he knew in the government, some very highly ranked bureaucrats and politicians all own illegal firearms. The other works for the Mexican equivalent of the IRS. It's a way of life in Mexico. It seemed to me that you aren't in the 'in-crowd' in Mexico unless you own at least one firearm. I was amazed at the whole thing after believing for years that gun ownership in Mexico was non-existent. That is hardly the case.

All this flies in the face of news articles published by the U.S. media in the last week or two. Mexico's gun problems are a direct result of gun runners buying "assault weapons" in the U.S. and taking them into Mexico to arm drug cartels, says the U.S. media and government. That is a bunch of government and media nonsense. The cartels aren't arming themselves from U.S. gun stores with semi-auto AR15 and AK47 rifles. They've moved on up. Not to completely dismiss arms moving into Mexico from the U.S., but it is not as it seems when the U.S. media tells the story. The firearms moving across the border are semi-auto rifles and handguns sold to middle class or wealthy Mexicans seeking personal protection from criminals that have no connections in Mexico with gun runners. For the most part the wealthy in Mexico are targets of criminal elements, so they have no intention of connecting up with them to buy a self-defense firearm. You're better off buying a weapon from someone within the Mexican government than buying it from the criminal element, namely a drug cartel.

Cartels buy their arms from countries around the world, most any place where military weapons can be purchased on the black market, or from countries wishing to destabilize North America. They arm themselves from a worldwide black market of full auto military weapons including grenades, land mines and RPGs. They also "procure" their weapons from the less than savory from within the Mexican military.

The drug cartels can easily afford to fly their weaponry into Mexico using their own fleet of aircraft on to remote airfields, or land them on remote Mexican shores from their fleet of vessels. They do it with drugs all of the time. Drug cartels buying semi-auto AR15 or AK rifles from U.S. gun dealers is viewed as a joke by Mexico's drug cartel, most Mexicans, and unfortunately by the Mexican government. The only people fooled by all the political rhetoric are Americans listening to the likes of Attorney General Eric Holder and other anti-gun politicians.

Mexico has a gun problem, just like they have a drug problem and both the U.S. and Mexican governments are trying to place the blame on U.S. gun owners. U.S. gun owners aren't the problem. Mexico is the problem. The government is corrupt from the lowest level law enforcement officer shaking down American tourists for traffic violations, to officials and politicians highly placed within the Mexican government, including elements within the military. Everyone in Mexico knows it. This is taking a Mexican problem, blaming the U.S. by turning it into a crisis in order further an agenda, and Eric Holder and President Obama knows it and they are taking advantage of it.

The administration is right that gun trafficking along the U.S./Mexico border is a problem. Not only do we have drugs and illegal aliens coming in our southern border, but we also have military arms and explosives coming into our country illegally as well. That's the issue and our government is being disingenuous in its argument."
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:31:40 AM EDT
If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU.


Most of us here are smart enough to know the difference between a comma and a period.

We also know that you have to pass a NICS check to buy firearms from a gun show dealer - which means you have to be a legal U.S. resident, and you can't be a felon - which rules out most drug dealers.

Most of us know that the full-auto weapons, grenades and RPGs commonly used by Mexican drug dealers aren't available at American gun shows.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:31:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 9:33:02 AM EDT by RileyS]
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:33:32 AM EDT
If they really wanted to create a "stimulus" for "shovel ready projects" building the wall along the south-west border would be the place to spend the money. But as you can see, they didn't allocate any of the trillion dollars from said bailout to a project like that. Why?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:33:33 AM EDT
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:34:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.


Why would they smuggle semiautomatic firearms in to Mexico when they can buy container's full of fully automatic's from any country that would like to destabilize North America?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:34:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane:
If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU.


Most of us here are smart enough to know the difference between a comma and a period.

We also know that you have to pass a NICS check to buy firearms from a gun show dealer - which means you have to be a legal U.S. resident, and you can't be a felon - which rules out most drug dealers.

Most of us know that the full-auto weapons, grenades and RPGs commonly used by Mexican drug dealers aren't available at American gun shows.


You don't think they know a few Americans who will buy for them?

You don't think they can get lowers from FTF sales?

I'm not saying they come from here, so its our problem. I'm saying, they do come from here, and ITS NOT OUR PROBLEM. It's Mexico's problem, they can enforce their own laws.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:35:32 AM EDT
they separated the 2 germanys with a wall, for the security of america why cant they build a wall not a fence to separate mexico and the united states. it is time america takes care of its own. FUCK THE GOD DAM MEXICANS .
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:38:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.


Why would they smuggle semiautomatic firearms in to Mexico when they can buy container's full of fully automatic's from any country that would like to destabilize North America?


You tell me a three step process, in specific terms how to get such kit. I'll tell you a 3 step process to getting guns from the US.

1. Cross border, find American buyer for gun.
2. Get gun from American buyer. If AR, order pistol upper for uber respect points back in Juarez.
3.Cross border back.

Now you tell me how to get in touch with this international conspiracy to make your life worse by selling THE DOPE to willing Americans.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:38:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:40:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


I'll even say these guns are used as-is. Semi-auto is just fine for the shit these guys are doing, like shooting police chiefs and their families in public.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:41:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU.


Most of us here are smart enough to know the difference between a comma and a period.

We also know that you have to pass a NICS check to buy firearms from a gun show dealer - which means you have to be a legal U.S. resident, and you can't be a felon - which rules out most drug dealers.

Most of us know that the full-auto weapons, grenades and RPGs commonly used by Mexican drug dealers aren't available at American gun shows.


You don't think they know a few Americans who will buy for them?

You don't think they can get lowers from FTF sales?

I'm not saying they come from here, so its our problem. I'm saying, they do come from here, and ITS NOT OUR PROBLEM. It's Mexico's problem, they can enforce their own laws.




Well if I was in the position financially like these cartels were..... I wouldn't be buying lowers and then spending time putting them together!

Fact of the matter is........... Who knows where the firearms are coming from. All we can do is guess! And of course the easy answer is they're coming from america!


Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:41:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.


Why would they smuggle semiautomatic firearms in to Mexico when they can buy container's full of fully automatic's from any country that would like to destabilize North America?


You tell me a three step process, in specific terms how to get such kit. I'll tell you a 3 step process to getting guns from the US.

1. Cross border, find American buyer for gun.
2. Get gun from American buyer. If AR, order pistol upper for uber respect points back in Juarez.
3.Cross border back.

Now you tell me how to get in touch with this international conspiracy to make your life worse by selling THE DOPE to willing Americans.


Do you honestly think a cartel that banks $100billion a year doesn't have the resources to buy machine guns from any willing government in the world?

Why would they go through the hassle of smuggling guns in when they can just buy them outright?

occam's razor
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:43:55 AM EDT
If gun ownership / gun laws in the US is the source for Mexico's violence, I must ask how come it doesn't happen here in the US. If "Assault Weapons" being manufactured and owned in the US is the source of violence in Mexico, how come crimes committed with the so called assault weapon is less than 1% here within the US? How come we don't see various gangs that are distributing narcotics committing large scale assaults on each other here in US cities?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:43:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 9:46:04 AM EDT by fatalerror113]


And, not practical.

If a fucking noise wall for a highway costs 1.5million/mile can you even freaking imagine what that would cost?

If you can't widening a road without jumping though a year of legal hoops to get all the necessary environment approval do you really think a wall will ever be allowed on the southern border?

Aggressively patrolling the border would be FAR more cost effective and realistic than a wall, especially and uber wall such as this.


Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:44:15 AM EDT
You're the idiot if you think these criminals are spending their hard-earned dollars paying American retail prices at gun shows and the like. Why buy when you can steal?

Crikey. It's like the idiots who think the AKs in America are the source of armed violence by AK-wielding criminals across the world. Oh, yeah, they really want to pay $500+ for a semi-auto version when they can buy the go-fast model for a helluva lot less somewhere else.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:50:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:


And, not practical.

If a fucking noise wall for a highway costs 1.5million/mile can you even freaking imagine what that would cost?

If you can't widening a road without jumping though a year of legal hoops to get all the necessary environment approval do you really think a wall will ever be allowed on the southern border?

Aggressively patrolling the border would be FAR more cost effective and realistic than a wall, especially and uber wall such as this.




works for me.......lax ROE would be in order
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:53:54 AM EDT
+1...........as simple as turning those serial numbers over would be, you'd think it's a no-brainer............


Originally Posted By 50cal:
If the Federales would just take the effort to confirm with the ATF where the "smuggled" guns serial numbers originated from, this could all be settled with no speculation.
I don't see it happening though.


Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:54:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 9:56:10 AM EDT by fatalerror113]
I would also like to say this:

Buying rifles is one thing, why go to SA when you can get FA? I agree that it makes little sense to pay american prices for semi-auto clones.

Handguns is a whole different animal.

Many handguns I've seen in south america were shit. Even the ones in use by the policia. Most arfcommers have nicer handguns than they do.

If Mexico is anyway similar, cartel members would have to be an idiot not to want to come to the US, buy a nice handgun for relatively cheap.

I would suspect that this is where the "90% of the weapons in mexico are from the US" statistics. It probably is somewhat true, since 90% of the weapons used by the drug gangs are probably handguns, and we sure do have nice handguns here.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:58:06 AM EDT
Why would they buy overprice guns in the USA when they can go south and get them on the cheap or heck africa would be cheaper even with shipping.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:59:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 10:00:26 AM EDT by Skibane]
Originally Posted By RileyS:
You don't think they can get lowers from FTF sales?


You honestly think there are a lot of folks selling FA lowers FTF at gun shows?

(For that matter, do you honestly think there are a lot folks selling ANY lowers FTF at gun shows?)
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:06:13 AM EDT
easy button answer: sonic fence border ala "Lost"...then ban earplugs...
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:11:34 AM EDT
buid a fence and milatarize the border.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:12:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
You don't think they can get lowers from FTF sales?


You honestly think there are a lot of folks selling FA lowers FTF at gun shows?

(For that matter, do you honestly think there are a lot folks selling ANY lowers FTF at gun shows?)


full auto doesn't come from us.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:13:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


You entire argument is currently based off of "What if" and "Don't you think it might be possible" or "They could modify them if they want to"...

Get real. Post hard fact and leave your subjective hyperbole and opinion at the door.

All of the facts thus far are pointing to the rifles and frags being supplied by a country other than the United States. If you have some fact that we are all unaware of that flies in the face of the current information, perhaps you could share that with us instead of your theories.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:14:24 AM EDT

Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here.



I know you're having fun with your rant and all...

but you seem completely oblivious to the fact that Venezuela has Russian AKs up the ass, and last I heard, are or were building a factory for mass production.

Why on earth would Mexicans bother with 5-10 WASRs when they can ring up ol' buddy Chavez and have 5K-10K Russian AKs the next day?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:16:36 AM EDT
So you're gullible enough to think that a Mexican cartel member is going to drive north, buy a ridiculously overpriced semi-automatic, drive it back south, bring it to a machine shop, and turn it into an FA weapon when they can get CHEAPER full automatic weapons from their own military and neighboring southern countries?

Keep drinkin' that Kool-aid.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:19:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here.



I know you're having fun with your rant and all...

but you seem completely oblivious to the fact that Venezuela has Russian AKs up the ass, and last I heard, are or were building a factory for mass production.

Why on earth would Mexicans bother with 5-10 WASRs when they can ring up ol' buddy Chavez and have 5K-10K Russian AKs the next day?


I dunno, that's not anything I'd know about, but take a look at guns layed out from confiscations off drug dealers and show me the third pin hole.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:20:06 AM EDT
The gun issue is all speculative bullshit until the worthless mex. gov starts giving us SN's for the guns. I'm sure a few pistols/semis came from us.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:20:08 AM EDT
When I was in Panama, there was a guy called "Blue", a Panamanian national, who could get you anything you wanted.

He offered to sell me a crate of real AK-47's for $300.00.

Do you really think that the cartels are paying $500.00 + for a semi auto version so they can then convert it?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:24:42 AM EDT
There needs to be a push for serial numbers of the Cartel guns to be released to the public.

This would end the nonsense fairly quickly.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:25:52 AM EDT
?
Originally Posted By DarkCharisma:
tl;dr the whole thing, but the problem is not with the LEGAL semi-autos or ammunition that can be purchased at gun shows; The media is pushing the idea that AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, RPGS, and GRENADES are coming from stores in the US. As we all know, those are not things you can get on the cheap and quickly from any FFL or private seller.

They're not.


+1
they can probably get full autos from china cheaper than semi autos at gun shows. if you were in that buisness what would you buy?

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:26:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By alphajaguars:
When I was in Panama, there was a guy called "Blue", a Panamanian national, who could get you anything you wanted.

He offered to sell me a crate of real AK-47's for $300.00.

Do you really think that the cartels are paying $500.00 + for a semi auto version so they can then convert it?


No ones talking about the full auto stuff. That stuff doesn't come from us. Neither do the RPG's or hand grenades. The Semi AR's with pistol uppers and the WASR 10's do come from us though. And its not our problem.

If all of you are so hung up on the issue of whether the guns (the little, non FA ones) come from us, lemme ask you this: If they do come from here, do you think its our problem?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:27:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here.



I know you're having fun with your rant and all...

but you seem completely oblivious to the fact that Venezuela has Russian AKs up the ass, and last I heard, are or were building a factory for mass production.

Why on earth would Mexicans bother with 5-10 WASRs when they can ring up ol' buddy Chavez and have 5K-10K Russian AKs the next day?


I dunno, that's not anything I'd know about, but take a look at guns layed out from confiscations off drug dealers and show me the third pin hole.


How do you know said photo isn't an old stock photo of some American's "confiscated arsenal" ?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:28:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
If all of you are so hung up on the issue of whether the guns (the little, non FA ones) come from us, lemme ask you this: If they do come from here, do you think its our problem?


Frankly I don't give a fuck where they come from.

Bad guys have, and can easily get guns, and there are many ways for that to happen. This isn't news.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:29:36 AM EDT
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that alot of them DID come from the U.S.

The U.S. government, that is. How many arms has our Federal government given the Mexicans over the years as a "partner in the WoD?" I'd wager its a bunch. You don't suppose any of those weapons ended up in the hands of the cartels, do you?

This might also explain why the Mexicans refuse to release any serial numbers... and also why we're not really pressuring them to do so, either.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:32:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 10:33:14 AM EDT by gonzo_beyondo]
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that alot of them DID come from the U.S.

The U.S. government, that is. How many arms has our Federal government given the Mexicans over the years as a "partner in the WoD?" I'd wager its a bunch. You don't suppose any of those weapons ended up in the hands of the cartels, do you?

This might also explain why the Mexicans refuse to release any serial numbers... and also why we're not really pressuring them to do so, either.



Not only that, but I'm not very inclined to believe large cartel arsenals have been seized.
The Mexican government is clearly overwhelmed, and probably half of their forces are on the take.

The odds of a cartel arsenal getting found? Dunno but I'd wager a lot of money against it. Cell phone calls go out.


[ATF] Here, just release these photos... it'll look good... [/ATF]
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:38:32 AM EDT
What fucking UTTER BULLSHIT!
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:38:59 AM EDT


umm fuck that, that keeps your ass in too.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:44:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cyclone:
+1...........as simple as turning those serial numbers over would be, you'd think it's a no-brainer............


Originally Posted By 50cal:
If the Federales would just take the effort to confirm with the ATF where the "smuggled" guns serial numbers originated from, this could all be settled with no speculation.
I don't see it happening though.




it does seem like a no brainer, except for the fact that any type of investigation would likely show that these weapons are provided, at least in part, by corrupt entities within the mexican military and police forces.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 10:54:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bg10:
Originally Posted By cyclone:
+1...........as simple as turning those serial numbers over would be, you'd think it's a no-brainer............


Originally Posted By 50cal:
If the Federales would just take the effort to confirm with the ATF where the "smuggled" guns serial numbers originated from, this could all be settled with no speculation.
I don't see it happening though.




it does seem like a no brainer, except for the fact that any type of investigation would likely show that these weapons are provided, at least in part, by corrupt entities within the mexican military and police forces.


Yup. Turn them over, go to the manufactures with them and say "who did you sell these guns to?" They provide a list and then you go from there just like they were tracing any other gun in the US.

If it turns out JoeBlow's gunshop is selling a lot of guns illegally then it is. Something tells me though that the Mexi government doesn't want the public to really know where all the guns are coming from.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:03:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Somehow I doubt all of those select-fire M16s, AK-47s, frags and G3s are coming from the US.

Jesus...

A few of the handguns? Yeah. It's probable. Stolen from homes and smuggled back into Mexico. I'll buy that.

BUT...the current rash of violence is not from 'bangers with G19s, so let's be realistic...shall we?


+1



Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:04:20 AM EDT
The rare and elusive high post count troll...
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:08:22 AM EDT
1) The machineguns and RPGs aren't coming from the US. It's easier and more econimical for the to arm themselves with weapons from other countries, and they end up with much more effective weapons for their trade. It's nonsense at best, and blatant disinformation at worst.

2) The wall is a horrible idea. Why is EVERYONE on BOTH sides of the debate so opposed to just unfucking the Border Patrol?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:10:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
buid a fence and milatarize the border.


Double fail.

Fuck the fence and fix the Border Patrol.
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