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Posted: 9/9/2001 8:03:50 AM EDT
I realize this is an AR forum but I actually like both. Aperantly Todd over at Special Weapons has made a legal mag conversion for the SL8 to make it accept AR mags. Details are on his website. This is just an FYI. AdTechArms
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 8:29:32 AM EDT
Link? Supposedly they are working on a conversion of the SL8 to a G36 lookalike.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 9:00:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 9:32:27 AM EDT by Opie]
[url]http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 11:26:50 AM EDT
Are you people stupid or just idiots? This "conversion" requires the milling of the HK SL8 receiver. And once you install the conversion parts and find that it doesn't work like expected you will be SOL. Of course you can always send your gun in to the dremel tool wizard himself for installation. I'm sure he got it right this time. I mean how many times can he create a product that fails?
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 11:27:29 AM EDT
After seeing that guy's awful behavior on hk91.com, I don't care what Special Widgets makes, I refuse to buy it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 11:46:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Opie: [url]http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/[/url]
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It will not work. It is not robust enough. I do not see how he can locate the mag relative to the bolt once you remove that much plastic. It looks like the rest of his franken crap! He says it will only work with USA mags? I will wait for Garryowen.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 12:13:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 12:23:42 PM EDT by HKocher]
Good riddance! I am actually excited to see this project fail, and I hope it does so magnificently. Sounds cruel? Yep, but I think anyone who lowers themselves by buying from a man of obviously questionable integrity, deserves to get screwed.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 1:20:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 2:07:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2001 2:08:06 PM EDT by HKocher]
Originally Posted By brouhaha: I can't understand why it's so important for people to have large capacity mags in a [i]target[/i] rifle. ...If these people want a rifle that'll take 30 rounder, why not buy an AR with a target upper? Besides, I'm not ever going to lower myself by buying and of SW's products. I plan on keeping my dignity, thank you very much! brouhaha
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Amen to that! I've argued that same fact over, and over again on HKPro.com. If you want a hicap target for $1200, get a bull barrelled AR. Even if you want an HK, by the time you get the mag kit and recolor and all the other do-dads, you would have spent well over $2000, enough money to get yourself a preban HK93 in .223, and a rifle that will actually work. I don't own an SL8, and don't particularly care to, but I would be interested in a gun that looked like a G36. If someone reputable (i.e., NOT Todd) came out with a low cost G36 (non-folding) stock and a black refinish, I would be interested in that.
Link Posted: 9/9/2001 3:08:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: I don't own an SL8, and don't particularly care to, but I would be interested in a gun that looked like a G36. If someone reputable (i.e., NOT Todd) came out with a low cost G36 (non-folding) stock and a black refinish, I would be interested in that.
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Me too.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 6:33:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 6:38:45 AM EDT by Steve]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Are you people stupid or just idiots?
Do you think you could have warned them of Todd's POS work in a less sarcastic manner? If you have a beef w/ todd that's no reason to take it out on them. Man, did someone piss in your coffee this morning or what?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:25:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 11:31:11 AM EDT by Garryowen]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:34:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garryowen: The mag is do-able, but even if it isn't, a new grip and but stock in a [b]MUST[/b]! The one that is with it now, I'm not even sure if it was made for a human hand! Probaley the most uncomfortable thumb-hole stock ever. [b]Mold Shop[/b] [url]http://www.az-precision.com[/url] [b]Gun Shop[/b] [url]http://www.cavalryarms.com[/url]
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Amen to that! This is what I'm talking about, a good guy to make this conversion, and now I'm interested.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:39:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 12:53:19 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By Garryowen: I have 2 USC's, a case of brand new GI "Greas Gun" mags and a full service Injection Molding facility and mold shop...What ever shall I do?(I also just droped cash on a new SL8-1 [;)]) The mag is do-able, but even if it isn't, a new grip and but stock in a [b]MUST[/b]! The one that is with it now, I'm not even sure if it was made for a human hand! Probaley the most uncomfortable thumb-hole stock ever.
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Dear God man, get to work! :) I would actually buy a USC if you made that conversion. And if you made an injection molded (i.e. not some machined aluminum fraken-abortion like Todd's) G36 conversion in the gray and black, DUDE... you'll sell the heck out of them. You actually have friends online, unlike Todd. You could actually use the boards to sell your goods... and you wouldn't have to start your own board because you were kicked off all the others for being a rude, lying, ignorant jerk. Although it would appear there is a benefit to having your own board, especially when you're Todd. You can delete every post you don't like and post lies about your customers and competitors. When, without warrant, you decide to attack your customers/users/competitors you can delete their responses and lock their accounts to silence them... but then you're a reputable man so I guess you can make use of the many public forums. :) If you do a conversion, sign me up. I'm good for one of each (USC/UMP and SL8/G36).
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:53:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Steve: Do you think you could have warned them of Todd's POS work in a less sarcastic manner? If you have a beef w/ todd that's no reason to take it out on them. Man, did someone piss in your coffee this morning or what?
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My apologies to ANYONE who had no prior knowledge of Todd Bailey and Special Weapons. To "those" who do know about Todd and his creations but still think this is a good idea, I have but one question... Are you people stupid or just idiots?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:55:25 AM EDT
Well... Having just perused Todd's site, I will say this: First: I have never dealt with his company, other than talking to him on the phone... And that was enough. Second: Nothing says unprofessional like poor use of grammar, and belittling the company you model your products after (per the website). Third: I really like the direction he is going in. That's right, I said it's a good idea. I will however wait to see how it is executed. And: is the mag release button going to be on the left side? Or is it just the way the photos are lit? Or the maybe part is not fully machined? Last: Copywrite should be spelled c o p y r i g h t . (Just in case you're listening, little guy) I'll save up and buy the CavArms version... But I'm going to get the USC kit first. havoc
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 11:57:54 AM EDT
Is it just me? Or does it look like some 14 year old kid made that website? Some of the pics aren't linked? WTF? Call me lazy I guess, but who wants to cut and paste all sorts of links? Oh well. -Jared
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:00:32 PM EDT
If garry does make this conversion, wont it have to fit the US 10 parts law? Like wont you have to put 10 US pieces for it to be allowed to take those mags by law?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 12:37:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:48:03 PM EDT
Watch out, the POS is covering his ass (not that I blame him):
Being that we have announced our new products and reviewed them with our attorney we do have a few items that will insure us a patent and we are going to patent them. This is fair warning for any company that tries to use any or our design information and produce something that is a violation of our patent. We will sue and shut you down. All items shipped with have patent pending marked on the side.
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Looks like someone is getting worried about competition...
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 1:53:34 PM EDT
Why would he sue you to shut you down? Wouldn't it be easier to just buy your entire company???[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 2:08:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Why would he sue you to shut you down? Wouldn't it be easier to just buy your entire company???[rolleyes]
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Because that's the kind of guy he is. He likes to use lawyers to make other's lives miserable. A little background history, he has threatened many folks on the boards with legal action over petty disputes or name calling. I actually believe he has followed through on more than one occasion, as often the 'victim' will post some sort of retraction or apology thread and disappear. Also, back when SW was first releasing his guns, he got into a battle of words with an unsatisfied customer, and Todd went on to brag on subguns.com about calling BATF and informing them the this 'customer' was unfit to own firearms. Whether he did it or not is not to my knowledge, but I wouldn't put it past him...
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 2:37:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 2:45:58 PM EDT by Garryowen]
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:08:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2001 3:45:56 PM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By Garryowen: I actually played with Todd's conversion this weekend at the "Fun Show", his table was across from one of mine (man, talk about a profession dispalay! Even the dude with beanie-babies knows enough to hang a banner and use a table cloth). His idea is sound, but I am going at it from another direction all together and will make a unti that looks like it was made in a real factory. Also, he started with the SL8 where as I am going after the USC first. Will it be a direct copy? The funny thing with Todd, he has [b]never[/b] even held one of my products but feels free comment on them, where as I have his "stuff" in my safe...
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Will it be a direct copy?
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:34:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 3:59:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garryowen: QCMGR.... No it will not and you hurt my feelings with that question[:(] I used to do work for Todd and as a matter of fact, I did most of his prototype work (I built the first SW3). I have copies of his original solid models on a disk over at the mold shop, so if I wanted to "cut his grass" I could have done it a long time ago. I have never used any of that information and don’t plan to start now. The guns I have are kind of like the old Holocaust survivor who refuses to have the tattoo removed [b]“Never Forget and Never Again!”[/b] This new bread of H&K is a whole new animal. [b]I do plastics[/b]. My family has been building top of the line injection molds since 1984 and we have been a major player in the injection-molding arena for the past 6 years (unfortunately that is how I met up with him, when he still worked for TRW). You have parts in your home that we either built the mold for or parts that we actually molded here in out plant. This new line of H&K guns is plastic and like I just stated, that is what I do. I am also a shooter. I have competed in IPCS matches all over the country (even did some shooting in Holland) and for the past few years I have been doing 3-gun. I’m not very good, but I love it. These new H&K guns were not built for people to shoot with any degree of comfort. My first priority is to make them usable, i.e. new grips and stocks with ergonomics of a shooter in mind. If I can make them use larger capacity magazines, then I will. Todd’s main goal is to make the rifles use Hi-cap’s by the addition of a “M16 mags well” and to get the US part count up he is including a “Gas Pistol” (?). He is taking the easier way; he is doing parts that don’t need a mold. I plan on cutting tools that will allow these rifles to become what the original engineers had in mind and still meet the PC requirements of our Government without invoking the wrath of H&K.
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My humble apologies. Please let me clarify. I was wondering if it would be a direct “cosmetic” replica. Of an HK G36. (Certainly not a copy of Todd’s franken crap) I would be interested in a G36 replica if it was executed properly. In addition, I am an Advanced Product Quality Planning Manager at a company that makes injection-molded components for automobiles. I like what you do with plastic. (I was also in the 6th Cav)
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 4:32:47 PM EDT
Back to the patent thing, does any one else find it particularly ironic that a guy who spent the last few years living off of producing clones of another manufacturer's design is now patenting his own new products??? Yeah, I know it's the smart thing to do, but I can't help it, it makes me laugh...
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 4:56:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR: I was wondering if it would be a direct “cosmetic” replica. Of an HK G36. (Certainly not a copy of Todd’s franken crap) I would be interested in a G36 replica if it was executed properly.
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I agree with QCMGR on the G36 look. Sure a hicap would be nice, but with this particular firearm, it is not important to me. I would like a more comfortable stock, preferably one that looks identical to the G36 stock, but of course, non-folding. Carry handle optics and G36 forearms can be bought from HK dealers, so that's not a problem. So I guess a black refinish and some bbl work (possibly a sleaved flash hider) would be all that would be needed.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:06:06 PM EDT
Only one I even care about is the USC/UMP conversion. I don't rally care about the G36, rather have an AR for .223 anyway. The G36 has several drawbacks and the SL8 is just a nightmare.
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:29:07 PM EDT
If you can make a reliable conversion to Grease Gun mags, and a decent buttstock/pistol grip, I'll buy another USC in a heartbeat. Put me on the waiting list for a kit, if there is one. What's your price point going to be? QS
Link Posted: 9/10/2001 5:41:40 PM EDT
Doesn't 922(r) (the import ban) not apply to short barreled rifles? If you SBR'd your USC, you could add the pistol grip and "hicap" mags w/o worrying about US parts. It would still need to abide by 922(v) (the 94 crime bill), at least for now, of course. Rocko
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 1:12:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: Watch out, the POS is covering his ass (not that I blame him):
Being that we have announced our new products and reviewed them with our attorney we do have a few items that will insure us a patent and we are going to patent them. This is fair warning for any company that tries to use any or our design information and produce something that is a violation of our patent. We will sue and shut you down. All items shipped with have patent pending marked on the side.
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Looks like someone is getting worried about competition...
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Laugh, just like he was going to sue hk91.com, HKPRO, Tom Bowers, Tony Rizzo, defii, the list goes on. He talks about suing eveyrone but never takes action. He's a bag of hot air, not to mention an asshole.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 1:23:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rocko: Doesn't 922(r) (the import ban) not apply to short barreled rifles? If you SBR'd your USC, you could add the pistol grip and "hicap" mags w/o worrying about US parts. It would still need to abide by 922(v) (the 94 crime bill), at least for now, of course. Rocko
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SBR's are [b]NOT[/b] exempt from the regulation of 922(r). Only a registered machinegun is exempt.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:36:19 PM EDT
Hmmm... this is the letter that is most often quoted when this comes up.
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 MAR 22, 1994 LE:F:FE:RLB 3312.5 Mr XXX Address City, State Dear Mr. XXX: This refers to your letter of February 28, 1994, in which you inquire as to whether the making of certain National Firearm Act (NFA) weapons is prohibited by Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section 922(r). The weapon in question is a FN/FAL type firearm having a barrel length of less than 16 inches which is assembled from an imported British L1A1 parts kit and a domestically manufactured frame or receiver. Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 922(r) provides that it shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 925(d)(3), as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. However, the Bureau has previously determined that the lawful making of an NFA weapon would not violate Section 922(r), since the section only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, and not the making of NFA weapons. Therefore, the lawful making of a short barreled rifle would not be precluded by Section 922(r). If you decide to proceed with your project, it will be necessary for you to obtain prior approval by first submitting an ATF Form 1 (Application To Make and Register a Firearm) and paying the appropriate $200 making tax. Additional information relative to this procedure may be obtained from the following source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms NFA Branch, Room 5300 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW Washington DC 20026 We trust that the foregoing was responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
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Now, the letter does not specifically address the question at hand. However, look at this paragraph: "However, the Bureau has previously determined that the lawful making of an NFA weapon [i]would not violate Section 922(r), since the section only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, and not the making of NFA weapons.[/i] Therefore, the lawful making of a short barreled rifle would not be precluded by Section 922(r)." The question asked it whether or not it is legal to SBR an imported firearm - the number of "evil" features was not addressed. However, in their answer, they plainly state that 922(r) does not address the making of NFA weapons. (continued - message too long)
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:36:54 PM EDT
(continued) I suppose it can be argued that since "evil" features aren't mentioned, they can simply be saying that a post '89 SBR is OK, as long as there is no PG, folding stock, flash hider, etc. BUT, they also specify the type of rifle being built - a FAL with a US made receiver, and an imported parts kit. At this point, I believe they had already ruled that just having a US made receiver did not make it a US rifle, so the situation as presented to the ATF definately called for the creation of a short barreled, semi-automatic assault weapon. They gave it their stamp of approval. This was discussed alot on ak-47.net when the afforable krinkov kits hit the market. If this is not true, then it seems many people may have built illegal post-ban SBR's - still compliant with 922(v) (stock pinned open, flash hider not present or drilled out), but all import parts. Rocko
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:58:43 PM EDT
Rocko, I think that letter basically says that 18 USC 922 does not preclude the making of an SBR in that those sections inconsistent with the approval of a Form 1 "making" would not apply. In other words, you must comply with the remaining prohibitions of 18 USC 922 that do not conflict with the permitted SBR "making" per a Form 1. If you have ever made an SBR per a Form 1, you will notice in the left hand corner of the first page, ie. the "approval" box and, in that box, you will see a condition stating that the weapon must "be in compliance with 18 USC 922v"
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 3:24:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: Rocko, I think that letter basically says that 18 USC 922 does not preclude the making of an SBR in that those sections inconsistent with the approval of a Form 1 "making" would not apply. In other words, you must comply with the remaining prohibitions of 18 USC 922 that do not conflict with the permitted SBR "making" per a Form 1. If you have ever made an SBR per a Form 1, you will notice in the left hand corner of the first page, ie. the "approval" box and, in that box, you will see a condition stating that the weapon must "be in compliance with 18 USC 922v"
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Yes, that was my other line of though as well. However, when they describe the weapon to be - "which is assembled from an imported British L1A1 parts kit and a domestically manufactured frame or receiver" one would think it is implied that such a rifle would have all the requisite "features" of a semi-automatic assault weapon. Since they state the rifle is not yet built, it is not as if they are asking if it is OK to SBR an existing pre-ban rifle. As to that checkbox, 922(v) is the 94 crime bill. 922(r) is the 89 import ban - two different animals. I would think the fact that the form 1 includes one and not the other is actually a point in the favor of it being allowed. Of course, it probably doesn't matter anyway. I think these letters are only the ATF's interpretation of the law at the time and the justice dept can ignore them at will. Rocko
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