
Posted: 3/24/2002 6:16:02 PM EDT
I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I've got to ask.
I've some people, a good number, talk about how stupid and how unconstitutional the ban on bay lugs, flash hiders, etc, are, and how good it is to give the gubment the finger by buying a pre-ban and stand up in the face of unconstitutional laws. From many of these people I've heard a lot of tough talk about resisting 'jackbooted stormtroopers' etc etc...
and then
The same people walk on egg shells over keeping their rifles post-ban legit, a law that most people agree is tantamount to cussing at a cop or J-Walking. ARs arnt like AKs to put back into original configuration, and its realy not that big of a deal (pre or post ban) but so many folks seem to talk like its a HUGE deal, that the ban represents the end of our Constitutional rights. Why the hell dont you just buy a pre-ban upper and be happy with it? Unless you live where the government acts like complete Nazis, no one is going to say anything unless you try and sell it. Before I knew about the 'no bayonets, no muzzle threads', I took and 'repaired' a Norinco MAK-90 by putting a folding spike bayo front sight back on it and threading the muzzle. I had that gun for five years and took it EVERYWHERE, I stored it at the Campus Police Station when I lived at the dorms in college, and no one ever said word one...I know technicaly I could be tracked down and thrown in the slammer, but except for one or two cases where guys were building pipe bombs and talking about overthrowing the government, how many people get arrested for 'post-ban' weapons with a bay lug and a flash hider? I've been told by LEOs that its the equivilent of smoking pot- be descrete and dont draw attention to yourself, and you've nothing to worry about...99% of the time.
If the AWB is such a big deal, wouldnt the BEST way to tell legislators and everyone else, to stick their bill where the sun dont shine, be by just IGNORING the law?
It worked for Ghandi.
more....
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My point is, why dont we stop complaining about these idiotic unconstitutional laws, and do something to REALY fight them? Stop the wild eyed talking about fire-fights with ATF in the hills, and make a realistic 'stand'? So many of you are active duty soldiers and vets- you guys have sworn your lives to face a possibly horrible death to protect the Constitution. Why are so many people so deathly affraid of resisting in a way which will ultimatly cost them some time and money, or is our money and a lack of legal hassels more important than our liberty?
I'm asking a question here of you folks- why sit and bitch about it in forums, and complain about it at gunshows, and do somethign about it in your day to day life? I'm guilty of pessimistic worries about this crap too, and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of fearing 'what if?' What if the ATF is waiting to machine gun me and my wife for loving my liberty (and loving my guns!) I'm sicking of fearing what if I'm going to get arrested by some worry wart soccer mom and thown in jail for having 'the wrong rifle' or 'the wrong pistol' in my OWN HOME.
I'm SICK OF IT. I say SCREW THEM. Do as you will, if we do this togeather, they cant arrest us ALL, even if I have to be one of the ones to go to jail, at least some of you guys will make it.....and eventually win. But we cant win if we dont resist, and we cant resist if we just sit around and wait for them to make more unreasonable demands of our liberty. These guys were hippies, they got their way by putting themselves in the way and not moving until they won. Its time we fight fire with fire- they get togeather and destroy guns, lets get togeather and MAKE GUNS.
Fed Up With Defeatism.
Amir
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Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"?
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
My annoyance at the present gun laws is not great enough to go to prison over. I don't think fighting the ban, stupid as it may be, is worth throwing your freedom away, better to dedicate the years you would spend in the pokey to political action.
I appreciate your willingness to take the lumps to try and help me get 20 round mags for my rifle, but I think your responsibility to your wife should come ahead of that.
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Thank you for your courageous stand, Imbroglio.
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You've raised some good points. But speaking for me only, I see this:
Going to jail for violating a law that you believe, no, KNOW, to be unconstitutional is still being in jail, and I really don't desire to do that.
I support and sympathized with any who choose to ignore the AW ban and configure a post ban weapon as pre-ban, so long as they don't intend to use it to commit a crime, but I don't support criminal activity, period. However that doesn't mean that I'm going to put the 'evil features' on my guns and then take them out to a public shooting range under ordinary circumstances.
I totally support acts of civil disobedience in this matter, and if it became widespread, I may even join in, but I'd want "safety in numbers".
This ban will expire. At midnight, September 14th, 2004, to be exact.
It's up to us to keep the pressure on our politicians to ensure that no replacement ban comes to life. I do my share. I have contacted a fair number of politicans and will contact more. I will not be part of the silent majority, but will instead make my voice heard, as I have been doing for some time now.
Incidentally, I have it on reasonably good authority that in northern California, the anti-gun laws of California are routinely ignored, as if they don't exist. This is just
the sort of thing that should happen EVERYWHERE.
Imagine the statement that would be made if every gun owner were to coordinate and take one designated day out of the year to openly carry a rifle, pistol, or shotgun with them throughout the day, nationwide, in the course of their daily business. With MUCH more than one in three adults carrying, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, would dare raise a finger to stop any of us, and it would be a power play that would send shock waves through the entire political system, which is what is desperately needed.
Incidentally, such an event would probably be accompanied by a unique event: There would probably be NO violent crime committed that day, and much less crime than usual of ANY kind would be committed on that day. This would have great shock value in proving the concept that an armed societ is, in fact, a polite (and safe) society.
I could just imagine how the most rabid anti-gunners would respond...hopefully by crawling under a rock. Hopefully the same one
they were born under.
CJ
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"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark.
Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom "My body is a temple." "No, it's an amusement park. Have a beer."...Hellboy |
GuardTanker, did you realize you didn't post this on assweb? We don't have our own forum dedicated to planning the insurrection LOL [BD]
You do, however, make a good observation, and here is the answer. We do this to not only avoid the appearance of illegal activities (for the [purpose of avoiding bad press and Federal scrutiny), but also to avoid the reality of illegal activities. There are some who might argue that we are a bunch of buck tooth drooling rednecks, but if they say we are breaking the law, they are big fat liars, and we have the truth behind us. We can RIGHTFULLY proclaim the legality and forthrightness of our activities.
Just the other day, Goatboy shut down a thread that was discussing a bootlegged copy of BHD. If he had not, would people then be able to say that Goatboy knowingly and deliberately condones illegal activities on his site? The answer is YES. He would be liable for that, as well.
Remember, the truth is on our side. Dishonorable people fight dirty. We do not.
BTW, do you know HTML? Post a website thoroughly and rationally explaining your views.
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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I refrain from wearing seatbelts in protest. I do other things too.
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I've been known to drive 60 mph in a 55 zone.
Try and catch me Copper! [):)]
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My opinion is more important than your opinion. But that's just my opinion.
I had to throw all my guns overboard to keep from getting arrested when I sailed into Mexico. |
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote |
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Originally Posted By shooter69:
Thank you for your courageous stand, Imbroglio. View Quote |
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1GUNRUNNER
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote Aimless- View Quote cmjohnson- View Quote DoubleFeed View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote View Quote |
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
I'm a soldier, my allegiance is to the Constitution of the United States of America. It is NOT some living document that can be bent at a whim to suit the times, it is written for ALL TIMES, and it is time that we STOP letting people walk all over us!
At the same time, we cannot dress like some American Taliban and declair ourselves the law. As the unorganized militia we can only support a Constitutional state. We must be CITIZENS of the US, not an invading Army. We must support the right of our fellow citizens to lead their lives in liberty as well, even if we do not necessairy with them. We must teach these 'liberals' that we are not a threat, and we do not threaten their lives, we defend them. Being a soldier is tough, as is being a citizen, live and let live, WITH IN the Constitution.
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It's all a matter of where you draw the line. Rights are routinely and incrementally whittled away, be it guns , search and seizure, speech, religion, etc.
I'll use taxation as an example..I don't know how many boneheads I hear complaining that if there is "one more tax" they'll go off on the gov't. But what they don't get is that the gov't ALREADY taxes you to death. You pay taxes on your income, on your property, on nearly everything you buy...then taxes to keep it in the form of licensing fees (cars).You pay taxes on the gas you put in your car which costs more because the people you buy it from add the costs of ALL the taxes they pay onto your price.
The key is to shut up ..and set your limit.When that line is crossed, you need to act in a way that will bring attention and empathy to your cause.Tim Mcveigh set his line, he brought attention, but blew up too many people to get empathy.Had he blown the building at night, with no one there, things would have been different in this country.
Make no mistake..NO ONE will come to your door and take your gun.They will ban configurations..then ammo..then zone out shooting ranges and hunting land. It will happen and you'll se it...but it will be so incremental you'll be unable to stop it.
Find your line...each time someone stands up it will give strength to those behind them..You may get jailed..or dead..or worse.But consider the fight like a beach landing...If enough of us stand up and move forward...we'll win.
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Arms - as most of us would take to mean "firearms" taken from Webster's:
Main Entry: fire·arm
Pronunciation: 'fIr-"ärm
Function: noun
Date: 1646
: a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder -- usually used of small arms
Does not mention - "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"
The people that are looking at the big picture need to look smaller - The Password is: Primers
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Originally Posted By GuardTanker:
Constitution of the United States of America. It is NOT some living document that can be bent at a whim to suit the times, View Quote |
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
1GUNRUNNER
Who's side are you on? Are you one of those folks who doesnt care about the AWB because you dont like 'man-killers' and only keep 'hunting' weapons? As you're on AR-15.com, I doubt it.
Make no mistake about it, the spirit of the AWB was not to ban these features, it was ment to eliminate the species from sales in the US all togeather.
As for your 'arms' argument. Infringed: fucked with. Read the WHOLE amendment. The AWB certainly fucks with the choice of ARMS we are aloud, doesnt it? $1,200 post ban Matel rifles? AKs that cost $50 to make, who's manufacturers only see about a $100 profit, so thats $150, plus a retail markup, say, 30%? Thats $200.
Gunrunner, there are forces trying to ELIMINATE us from the American landscape, the AWB denies us the manufature of arms, it infringes our ability to keep and bear arms necessairy for a well regulated militia in the 21st Century.
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Originally Posted By GuardTanker:
1GUNRUNNER
Who's side are you on? Are you one of those folks who doesnt care about the AWB because you dont like 'man-killers' and only keep 'hunting' weapons? As you're on AR-15.com, I doubt it.
Make no mistake about it, the spirit of the AWB was not to ban these features, it was ment to eliminate the species from sales in the US all togeather.
As for your 'arms' argument. Infringed: fucked with. Read the WHOLE amendment. The AWB certainly fucks with the choice of ARMS we are aloud, doesnt it? $1,200 post ban Matel rifles? AKs that cost $50 to make, who's manufacturers only see about a $100 profit, so thats $150, plus a retail markup, say, 30%? Thats $200.
Gunrunner, there are forces trying to ELIMINATE us from the American landscape, the AWB denies us the manufature of arms, it infringes our ability to keep and bear arms necessairy for a well regulated militia in the 21st Century.
View Quote |
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<center id=center>guy who likes to gripe</center id=center>
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GuardTanker,
Humm........ kept the rifle at the campus police station. Well, since you're from WA and you have more info on your details..... I've concluded you went to WSU. I don't think that UW has that option........
Laws are laws. No matter how stupid/dumb we think they are. Heck, there are still laws on the books that are 'outdated' some would say... but they're still on the books and can be enforced.
Do I care about being PC? No. I've been told by 'seasoned' people that you must play the game if you want victory. Do I like politics? No. But under the system we have, we have rules to play by. Beat them at their own game, using their rules. What if they change the rules........ then win w/the different rules. Do I like being told what kind of car/truck to drive based on fuel economy. Heck no!!!
Time will tell. This kind of power strugle has gone on for years, before your time or my time and will keep on going after we are gone.
Oh, by the way.... GO COUGARS!!!!
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
GuardTanker
The original intent of the Second Amendment to the Constitution was to allow the people of this nation to not have to relive the history of the world by the persecution of the government, like the one they had just fled and won a war against. For the people to be free they must be able to protect themselves against the tyranny of government, [b]their own government.[/b] The only way to insure this is to be able to keep the government in check including by use of force if it ever came necessary. Have you tried to buy an Abrahams Tank or an Apache Helicopter lately?
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote |
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Gunrunner- Havnt tried to buy one- have you ever commanded one? I have, I do once a month. Know what? Its a machine, and its got a crew. That machine is usless without a crew, and although it cannot be taken out with another tank, like the Death Star, is suceptable to smaller assaults.
Besides, the Militia isnt ment to defend against tanks. The Army isnt coming for you, the National Guard, for a large part, is on your side (including MY tank).
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Originally Posted By maelcum:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote View Quote |
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Read this:
[url]
http://www.varmintcallers.com/second.htm[/url]
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Gunrunner, good LORD you're a tough nut to crack.
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
If there are AR-15s out there, and we are prohibited from ownership, then our right to BEAR ARMS will be INFRINGED. More importantly the RKBA is a vital part of a WELL REGULATED MILITIA. In the speech of the day (five years at University studying history allows me to say this with pretty good certainty) WELL REGULATED means not only neat and tidy, but properly armed for the time. A flint-lock is as much a detriment to a WELL REGULATED MILITIA as a fat, out of shape old man who can shoot well, but dies if he tries and runs.
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Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote |
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Who's side are you on? Are you one of those folks who doesnt care about the AWB because you dont like 'man-killers' and only keep 'hunting' weapons? As you're on AR-15.com, I doubt it. View Quote I gotta agree. There are a lot of great opinions and ideas being thrown around and Gunrunner just gets wrapped around the axle on the definition of what a gun is! View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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You guys are barking up the wrong tree with me. I am telling you what is coming down the line. When and if this finally comes to a head it will be lost (unless). The more time passes the more Anti's there are. The chipping away at the freedoms in this country (and not just the Second Amendment) will continue. The other side is patiently waiting this out and it is working. If your gonna start a revolution, get on with your bad self; I'll be there.
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Ya gotta learn to play the game with their rules and beat them using their rules.......
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
I am telling you what is coming down the line. View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
The other side is patiently waiting this out and it is working. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
I am telling you what is coming down the line. View Quote View Quote |
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
The other side is patiently waiting this out and it is working. View Quote View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
On the flip side, does anyone think that the FF ever thought the govt would get this 'big'? And that 'our representatives' would start to view 'the people' as subjects that needed to be shown what to do??? View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
The other side is patiently waiting this out and it is working. View Quote View Quote View Quote |
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
Gunrunner-
I see what you are trying to do. I suspected it at first, now I know. Thankyou, please by all means continue. A bayonet without a whetstone is a usless implement.
I dont subscribe to your dark view of the future though. We are fighting back, and this 'revolution' will be a peaceful one. If I have to fire my weapon once in this cause, I will have failed my primary objective.
I think gun control is a fad, like prohibition, or the dark fear of the 'supernatural' like led our ancestors (well, some people's ancestors, mine were recovering from the Crusaides) to stone one another and take part in very bizarre events. We just have to make a stand the same way they do.
Look- I'm not against arms CONTROL (not limitation or elimination). We dont need to 'beat them into submition', I'm not advocating the 'Final Solution' of everyone who is affraid of firearms, nor am I even talking about eliminating proper regulation of small arms, having been shot at by enough billey-n-bobs with TEC-9s or SKSs who thought they were pretty hot stuff because they could pull a trigger. May be its the military in me, but I dont think anyone aught to be given a complex peice of anything (car, airplane, etc) with out being first, able to use it responcibly. I personaly think (cringes) Israel and Switzerland have it right. A citizenry who is armed with GI AUTOMATIC rifles, and compelled to train at LEAST once a month in the use and care of their weapons.
I think there ARE dangerous gun owners, they are the non-shooting folks who run out and buy a pistol or shotgun after some jackass with a truck full of Amonium Nitrate, or a boxcutter for that matter, blows up a bunch of innocent people (I say that with reservation, I dont believe there is any soul with out sin on Earth, just souls who are forgiven). These people buy the gun, a box of ammo. Load the gun, stick it in the hall closet and forget about it. Then Johnny Five Year Old comes along and tries to do what Wesley Snipes did on TV, and blows his playmate's head off. Make no mistake about it, these people are as much a danger to us as gun-grabbers. In a way they are the suicide-bombers of the gun-grabber world. But that is a discussion for another time....
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Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
On the flip side, does anyone think that the FF ever thought the govt would get this 'big'? And that 'our representatives' would start to view 'the people' as subjects that needed to be shown what to do??? View Quote View Quote |
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
Original question: GuardTanker and crew, write out all of your arguments, and then go through them with a fine tooth comb, from the opposite viewpoint. You need to iron out contradictions. Such as, the Constitution is not a living document, but it does include AR15s as militia weapons? How are you going to counter the point that the FFs never envisioned such powerful weaponry? View Quote Proposed rebuttal: if I were a politician, being evasive and unsure might be a safe thing to do ... so I can't be nailed down to any one thing. We see it all the time.
To my phrase....if I recall, there were some quotes from elected officials that supports the conclusion that they think they know what's good for the population. View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Doublefeed....ah...I get it. Will have to mull it over to get all my 'ducks in a row.'
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
Doublefeed- Its nearly one in the morning and I'm still working on one last class for my third BA (20th Century Conflict). The price of Free Speech, dealing with 'hate speech'. I need all my wits to finish that paper, and it would take all those wits (and more) to formulate my argument in a legal form.
GunRunner- FANTASTIC article, thanks so much for the link. Gives me a great type of outline for that argument Doublefeed is on about.
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Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
Doublefeed....ah...I get it. Will have to mull it over to get all my 'ducks in a row.' View Quote |
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
Doublefeed....ah...I get it. Will have to mull it over to get all my 'ducks in a row.' View Quote View Quote |
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"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA |
Well, TTFN all, thanks for all of it, and keep it coming. I'm glad I didnt write this board off as a bunch of ignorant hotheads after reading the posts about the Middle East- it seems that we've got some very sharp players here, and I'm honored to be able to pick their brains.
Just remember- discussions like this are what lead to this great nation. They may be just words, but thats where ideas come from, and ideas are what make us great. Thanks for reminding me why I signed up to defend it all.
Amir
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GN, Kaliburz. It has been fun. There are few things I like to do more than debate. Stimulating!
Have fun at work. Hope you get enough sleep.
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Do they call you GuardTanker "probably because it sounds scary"?
Have a good one, GT.
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That's PERSEC, not OPSEC. -AvengeR15
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Originally Posted By Rotti:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
I didn't make that post.
View Quote |
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Originally Posted By liberty86:
The contrary is true, in "The Fedralist Papers", #29 by Alexander Hamilton, he specifically mentions, .... View Quote |
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"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the fuck just happened." ~ Phil Harris RIP
"Differing opinions are not trolling." ~ The_Beer_Slayer |
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Again, I must ask; Where does The Constitution guarantee you: "bay lugs, flash hiders, etc"? View Quote |
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Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By liberty86:
The contrary is true, in "The Fedralist Papers", #29 by Alexander Hamilton, he specifically mentions, .... View Quote View Quote |
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