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Posted: 8/8/2004 5:10:06 PM EST
Werent they banned before the 94 AWB? COuld had swore that they were banned with the Brady Bill in the early 80's. Not referring to collapsable ones, but the actual folders.
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 5:42:11 PM EST
Nope....Crime Bill of 1994 banned them on semi-autos only (along with some other features, check the FAQ). BTW, Brady Bill was in '93, all it did was require the NICS check.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 8:28:51 AM EST
Brady has nothing to do with weapons configuration, only the waiting period/background check thing. They initially wanted a 10 day wait, whittled to 5, and finally passed as a 3 day wait, to be replaced by NICS as soon as it was up and running. It has done NOTHING to reduce crime.

The folding stock/collapsing/telescoping stock thing is one of the "evil features" defining an "assault weapon" in the '94 AWB. It goes away in September.

Note that EVEN with a legal folding stock, and AWB sunset, NFA '34 still is in effect. This means that a non-NFA firearm still must have a barrel 16" or more for rifles, 18" or more for shotguns, and overall length 26" or more. As long as the the rifle/shotgun is still 26" or more with the stock folded, it will be OK as far as NFA.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:01:41 PM EST
I have no idea why I said Brady bill. May had been when the brady bunch was on TV.hearing
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 2:53:06 PM EST
No, the overall length is measured with a folding stock opened.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 3:55:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2004 3:59:33 PM EST by A_Free_Man]
Chromebolt: Pardon me, but the overall length had better be over 26" with the stock folded, or it comes under NFA.

Rob940: Nope, all you need is 10" of receiver or other material behind the barrel. Many carbines with 16" barrels easily make the 26" limitation with folding stocks. CAR-15's w/16", M1 .30 Cal Carbine with 16" bbl and "paratrooper stock", Mini-14 with folder (but has 18" barrel, but it could be trimmed to 16").
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 8:18:41 AM EST
Actually, that 26" minimum length is a point of confusion. Technically, the code says that anything with a barrel over 16" and total length of less than 26" is a short barrelled rifle (NFA). However, there have been ATF decisions going back to 1961 (61-203) that said that M1A1 paratrooper carbines were OK as regular rifles (basically said they weren't SBRs) as long as the stock remained attached. They based this on the gun being designed to be shot from the shoulder. Note that the M1A1 is 25" long when folded. This began (or continued) the long tradition of people saying that ATF wanted folding stocked weapons measured with their stocks extended.

Also note the well known UZI carbines which were sold in the US for several years with metal folding stocks. These carbines had 16.1" barrels, but measured only 24.4" when folded. There are several listed on GunsAmerica right now, so if they are an NFA problem everyone is keeping it quiet.

But, when I called the local ATF office this morning for clarification they immediately told me that if the weapon didn't measure 26" when folded, they would gladly arrest the owner. I believe this to be a case of them knowing the law, but not the interpretations which have become commonplace for ATF to use in enforcing the law.

So, confusing all around.

Futuristic
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 2:57:33 AM EST
THanks. Why the hell cant they just make these lwas simple to understand without having to have a doctorate in law. I thought pesticide laws were bad.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:52:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 8:53:24 AM EST by double_r76]
I believe the centerpoint of this is the presumption of innocence. If you go to the range with a rifle that is wearing a folding stock, everyone will assume that it meets the requirements of the law. Unless a weapon is used in a crime, or the owner brings other suspicion upon themself, there is not much chance of a federal agent coming up to you with a ruler. Same goes for illegal assault weapons and illegal hi-capacity magazines.

I've been to plenty of ranges with my pre-ban assault rifles and have never had anyone come over to look at my serial numbers to verify their status. If someone went to a range with a preban uzi carbine with a 16" barrel, what are the chances that someone would question the overall length of the rifle? For people out there, like me, that use ranges frequented by law enforcement officers... when was the last time they came over to inspect your magazines to make sure they were not restricted?
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:54:32 AM EST
i think for MI state law the rifle has to be a minimum of 30 inches in closed position
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:27:20 PM EST
does anyone know the overall length minimum in california? is it legal to put a folding stock on a fixed mag sks?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 10:35:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Futuristic:
Actually, that 26" minimum length is a point of confusion. Technically, the code says that anything with a barrel over 16" and total length of less than 26" is a short barrelled rifle (NFA). However, there have been ATF decisions going back to 1961 (61-203) that said that M1A1 paratrooper carbines were OK as regular rifles (basically said they weren't SBRs) as long as the stock remained attached. They based this on the gun being designed to be shot from the shoulder. Note that the M1A1 is 25" long when folded. This began (or continued) the long tradition of people saying that ATF wanted folding stocked weapons measured with their stocks extended.

Also note the well known UZI carbines which were sold in the US for several years with metal folding stocks. These carbines had 16.1" barrels, but measured only 24.4" when folded. There are several listed on GunsAmerica right now, so if they are an NFA problem everyone is keeping it quiet.

But, when I called the local ATF office this morning for clarification they immediately told me that if the weapon didn't measure 26" when folded, they would gladly arrest the owner. I believe this to be a case of them knowing the law, but not the interpretations which have become commonplace for ATF to use in enforcing the law.

So, confusing all around.

Futuristic



Let's add some more confusion. Under the "you can make a pistol a rifle, but you can not make a rifle a pistol" opinion, you could come up with a problem. The T/C Encore and Contender are both usually sold as pistols, but IIRC sometime they are sold as rifles. I believe there was a specific case for the T/C company, but I'm not sure it addressed this. If you have an 18" barreled Encore with a pistol grip that was origionally sold as a rifle, are you commiting a crime by not registering it as a SBR?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:01:21 PM EST
I don't know for sure, but I believe that the "single shot" nature of the encore/contender puts it in a different class.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:48:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:10:20 AM EST by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By patrickcudd:
Let's add some more confusion. Under the "you can make a pistol a rifle, but you can not make a rifle a pistol" opinion, you could come up with a problem. The T/C Encore and Contender are both usually sold as pistols, but IIRC sometime they are sold as rifles. I believe there was a specific case for the T/C company, but I'm not sure it addressed this. If you have an 18" barreled Encore with a pistol grip that was origionally sold as a rifle, are you commiting a crime by not registering it as a SBR?




Short answer:
"If you have an 18" barreled Encore with a pistol grip that was origionally sold as a rifle," it must be registered as an NFA SBR "firearm."

From the NFA:
26 USC Sec. 5845. - Definitions
For the purpose of this chapter -
(a) Firearm: The term ''firearm'' means
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(c) Rifle: The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder ...


The Supreme Court case mentioned is United States v Thompson/Center Arms Corp, 504 U.S. 505, 112 S.Ct. 2102 (1992)
The court addressed the situation of selling a handgun packages with a stock and 16+" barrel to form a carbine from the pistol. The SBR example the court considered was the pistol barrel on the rifle stock ("designed to be fired from the shoulder...barrel less than 16 inches...");
I don't remember the Court discussing it, but I think the long barrel on the pistol frame/grip, was still a pistol ( no upper limit on barrel length as long as it is designed to be fired by one hand).

IMO It is cheaper to buy a T/C pistol and make the carbine yourself without the NFA restrictions of an SBR.

Rob940: Trust me, I have a doctorate in law and it is still confussing.

Cheers, Otto

ETA By the way, the Thompson case was by no means unanimous; every point of law that comes from it has this caveat, "(Per Justice Souter, with The Chief Justice and [Justice O'Connor] concurring and two Justices concurring in judgment.)"
This was not a 5-4 decision, but a 3-2-4 decision... confused? me too.

ETA II: Redhook, the single shot nature does not affect the definition of rifle under the NFA; here is the full definition:
The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge. (emphasis added)

Note the "fixed cartridge" requirement with no carve-outs for single-shots.

Also note that weapons that may readily be restored to fire are also considered rifles for NFA purposes (language that is missing in the current but soon to be dead AWB) and is the topic of a case (US v. Kent) where the short-barreld but complete AR upper was found in an appartment with and AR-15 was constructive possession of an NFA firearm -- something to keep in mind if you have T/C pistol barrels around but only a T/C originally sold as a rifle.
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