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Posted: 11/29/2007 11:34:20 AM EDT
Meet up with a guy today to sell an old hunting rifle. Everything was going normal - discussing the rifle, negoitiating price, etc....When the deal was done I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale. Then it got weird! He said I should have explained that to him first. He said he's the type of person who thinks buying a gun should be like buying a TV from someone through a newspaper add - No paperwork! I said to him that I didn't want the paper trail to come back to me when someone is injured with my old rifle. He quickly gave me the gun back and took his money and left. Centainly did not invision this happening!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:37:17 AM EDT
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:38:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Same here.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:39:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:39:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Same here.


You'd get the same from me.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:39:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


My reaction is the same as yours. Stipulate your terms up front.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:40:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kaizoku:

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Same here.


You'd get the same from me.


Yep same here.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:40:58 AM EDT
WTF? On a longarm? Not a chance in hell would I sign that.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:41:32 AM EDT
Yep, you pretty much wasted that guys time.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:42:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By tmac77:
Meet up with a guy today to sell an old hunting rifle. Everything was going normal - discussing the rifle, negoitiating price, etc....When the deal was done I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale. Then it got weird! He said I should have explained that to him first. He said he's the type of person who thinks buying a gun should be like buying a TV from someone through a newspaper add - No paperwork! I said to him that I didn't want the paper trail to come back to me when someone is injured with my old rifle. He quickly gave me the gun back and took his money and left. Centainly did not invision this happening!


Psst! That's the point of a FTF transfer.


Thats how I see it too
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:42:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By kaizoku:

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Same here.


You'd get the same from me.


Yep same here.


Me too.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:42:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:43:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By tmac77:
Meet up with a guy today to sell an old hunting rifle. Everything was going normal - discussing the rifle, negoitiating price, etc....When the deal was done I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale. Then it got weird! He said I should have explained that to him first. He said he's the type of person who thinks buying a gun should be like buying a TV from someone through a newspaper add - No paperwork! I said to him that I didn't want the paper trail to come back to me when someone is injured with my old rifle. He quickly gave me the gun back and took his money and left. Centainly did not invision this happening!


Psst! That's the point of a FTF transfer.


i dont understand the bill O sale..on a FTF..

you pay me money...
i give you gun...

vice versa.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:43:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Same here.


+1. At the most get the guys name and that's it. Even that is not neccesary.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:43:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dedfella:
If you didn't inform me of that stipulation up front, I would have the same reaction

that is just me though


Goddamn right.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:43:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
WTF? On a longarm? Not a chance in hell would I sign that.


Why is that?



I do agree with the board, you should have told him that part upfront.

Its not like rifles are registered, that can be tracked its just a long process. highly unlikely that the police would even bother unless it was a very serious crime.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:44:01 AM EDT
They all are FOOLS! I agree with you 100% about the bill of sale.

It isn't like you are registering it with the government or something. BOS cover you ass.

I do agree though that the BOS should have been discussed before hand however.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:44:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:44:40 AM EDT


Joined :: November 2007
Post Number :: 12



Possible going for the 'gunshow loophole' angle, methinks.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:45:29 AM EDT
Sorry, but your communication skills FAIL. You do realize this is arf.com right?? Sorry, but if you have stipulations like that, they should have been made clear up front.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:45:34 AM EDT
WOW! I for sure figured it was standard/normal to sign over a firearm to a new owner. Didn't think it would be that much of a nuisance.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:45:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
WTF? On a longarm? Not a chance in hell would I sign that.


Why is that?



I do agree with the board, you should have told him that part upfront.

Its not like rifles are registered, that can be tracked its just a long process. highly unlikely that the police would even bother unless it was a very serious crime.


Why the unholy hell would I consent to leaving a trail of ownership where none is required by law? Fuck that.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:48:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:50:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tmac77:
WOW! I for sure figured it was standard/normal to sign over a firearm to a new owner. Didn't think it would be that much of a nuisance.


as info

I have bought probably 50 used guns in FTF deals and I have NEVER signed a BOS
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:50:23 AM EDT
Yeah, you can have your opinion on things, but it's common courtesy to be up-front about your own requirements.

That's where you failed to respect that someone might not hold to your own views, and you wasted his time as a result.

I think you should offer him some kind of gesture like a bottle of Hoppe's for his inconvenience.

As long as the FTF met state requirements & federal, it would be legit. Anything beyond that to CYA is something you should have disclosed in advance. Similar to if you did an online sale, and then after the guy meets your originally stated terms, you add that you'll only accept "Liberty Dollars" as payment, sent only by way of private courier.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:52:35 AM EDT
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:52:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By millsusaf:
They all are FOOLS! I agree with you 100% about the bill of sale.

It isn't like you are registering it with the government or something. BOS cover you ass.

I do agree though that the BOS should have been discussed before hand however.


Yeah, i've had a few FTF buys and sales before, and I always cough up my information. However, it seems that every time i've sold to someone who isn't a firearms noob, people don't seem to want to cough up the info. Most offer a glance at their CCL, but generally people (who seem to be normal law abiding folk)don't like establishing a paper trail "just in case"

I kind of don't dig it. How do I know my handgun won't be sold, and sold, and sold to some asshole who pops someone? If the paper trail stops cold at my feet, will the cops bust my chops?
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:54:02 AM EDT
I let someone see my ID and CHL if they wish. Write it down? Sorry you should have explained that upfront.

You need to apologize for wasting the guy's time.



Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:55:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tmac77:
WOW! I for sure figured it was standard/normal to sign over a firearm to a new owner. Didn't think it would be that much of a nuisance.


It definitely is not normal. Some people do it, but you should make that clear before hand from now on. No big deal, live and learn.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:55:25 AM EDT
If the law doesn't require it, why worry with it. This is the point of doing a FTF on long guns.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:56:16 AM EDT
One friend of mine insists on it, he's sort of paranoid.

My only FTF, I offered to show my CHL to the seller but he didn't care. Somehow I was able to avoid shipping those guns to NYC.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:58:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By doggscube:
One friend of mine insists on it, he's sort of paranoid.

My only FTF, I offered to show my CHL to the seller but he didn't care. Somehow I was able to avoid shipping those guns to NYC.


Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:58:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 11:58:55 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:58:19 AM EDT
He was BATF.

<­BR>
I would have made him sign a statement that he is not a convicted felon or otherwise prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:58:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 12:00:19 PM EDT by WoodDevil]

Originally Posted By tmac77:
Meet up with a guy today to sell an old hunting rifle. Everything was going normal - discussing the rifle, negoitiating price, etc....When the deal was done I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale. Then it got weird! He said I should have explained that to him first. He said he's the type of person who thinks buying a gun should be like buying a TV from someone through a newspaper add - No paperwork! I said to him that I didn't want the paper trail to come back to me when someone is injured with my old rifle. He quickly gave me the gun back and took his money and left. Centainly did not invision this happening!
Who know, he might have been up to no good. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

I wouldn't have had a problem with it. That's just me.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:59:01 AM EDT
Totally unnecessary. Even if your old firearm is used in a crime, as long as you are not involved, you are good to go. You're only obligation in a FTF is to be reasonably assured of the recipients legal eligibility to own a firearm. If you are reasonably assured of that, sell the gun and walk away.

I got a call once from the PD when a SKS I sold years ago was confiscated during an arrest. They only wanted to know if it was stolen, nothing more. They knew I was nowhere near the incident and didn't even ask who I sold it to.

AIRBORNE!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 11:59:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.


Why is that? If it is not required!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:00:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.


Says who?
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RCRTR:
You're only obligation in a FTF is to be reasonably assured of the recipients legal eligibility to own a firearm.


And unless you get him to sign something to that effect you may be getting set up by BATF.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:01:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 12:03:00 PM EDT by Dragracer_Art]
Well, I've done a bunch of FTF deals here in PA... and only ONCE did someone ask me to sign a bill of sale... (On an Armalite AR15)
On some occasions, I've even offered it... (photocopied drivers license)

I have nothing to hide, and no reason to be concerned about giving my personal info to the seller of the gun. If it comforts him in knowing exactly who I am, I have no problem with it. HE is the one giving ME the gun. I want him to trust me 100% and feel confident in the deal.

Personally, I've never asked for ID on any long guns I've sold... but certainly understand if a seller requests it.

Quite frankly, if I asked for ID and a buyer flaked out about it, I'd be a little concerned too. Maybe he SHOULDN'T be buying a gun... maybe he is a FELON.

If your name is the last one on the BATF paper trail after your gun is found at a crime scene... It probably wouldn't hurt to know who you sold your gun to.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:02:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ACOGless:
If the law doesn't require it, why worry with it. This is the point of doing a FTF on long all guns.


Sorry you're in MD. We escaped in '05.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:03:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.



+1
I have always asked for the buyer to sign a BOS. Not one person has said no or acted like it was a pain in their ass. In fact when most of them come over there showing their NE purchase permit to show that they aren't some clown and that they are a serious buyer. It's called CYA!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:04:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 12:05:07 PM EDT by ACOGless]

Originally Posted By doggscube:

Originally Posted By ACOGless:
If the law doesn't require it, why worry with it. This is the point of doing a FTF on long all guns.


Sorry you're in MD. We escaped in '05.

Yeah I am sorry too, as far as I know TX law is different on these transactions though.

OP's home state?
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:06:26 PM EDT
A bill of sale would have been the first thing I would have expected if I were either buying or selling. I would cover my ass & would expect the same. But that's just me.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:06:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 12:07:48 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.


Says who?


Says me if you want to buy what I have for sale, ESPECIALLY for a item that could be traced back to me. And if I am buying from someone I will get a bill of sale from them or walk away.

In transactions historically bill of sales are assumed to be issued not the other way around.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:08:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By CanteTinza:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
As a seller I'd insist on a bill of sale, if buyer balks they can go thru a FFL holder and do the yellow form.

As a buyer I'd probably walk too!


Yep if I sell something the buyer will sign a bill of sale period, if the buyer don’t like it I walk away... in ALL transaction of this type it should be assumed a bill of sale is required.


Says who?


Says me if you want to buy what I have for sale, ESPECIALLY for a item that could be traced back to me. And if I am buying from someone I will get a bill of sale or walk away.

In transactions historically bill of sales are assumed to be issued not the other way around.


I think the question is why should it be assumed if it is not required by law, seems most here think it shouldn't and obviously isn't always assumed!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:09:39 PM EDT
I would say that from a possible liability standpoint, a BOS would be the smart thing to do.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:09:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
...In transactions historically bill of sales are assumed to be issued not the other way around.



For FTF transactions? Like heck they are assumed to be issued.

Follow the letter of the law; don't try to make up even more requirements and regulations.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:11:04 PM EDT
Like someone else said it's not required by law. I wouldn't sign anything either.

Other than buying the gun from you I don't know you so I would never give my personal information to you.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:11:24 PM EDT
Would have walked as well, you wasted dudes time
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:11:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 12:21:03 PM EDT by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By RCRTR:
You're only obligation in a FTF is to be reasonably assured of the recipients legal eligibility to own a firearm.


And unless you get him to sign something to that effect you may be getting set up by BATF.


Bullshit.

There is no law stating you have to verify a person's identity or have them sign a bill of sale in a FTF transaction. It's on the buyer to know if he can legally purchase a firearm, not the seller.

Some of you people are so scared of the BATFE, you follow laws that don't exist.

Can someone please explain to me the situation where a bill of sale would be helpful? You do understand that firearms change hands so often that you won't have one "traced back to you", right? Unless you do something to make yourself a suspect, you're not going to be tied to a firearm recovered in a criminal investigation except to possibly identify the person who bought it from you. If, in 5 years, some gangbanger gets shot with a pistol that you owned at one time, the cops aren't going to think you did it... they're a little smarter than that.

Arfcommers are so damn paranoid. Why do so many people here think that the ATF is just waiting to bash in their door, kill their dog, shoot them, rape their wife, and burn their house down?
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