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Posted: 12/15/2005 3:09:55 PM EDT
Why did the ATF/FBI hold the Waco FD trucks up at the checkpoint, and prevent them from going to put out the blaze
Inquiring minds wish to know.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:03:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:14:19 PM EDT
I dont know. Why dont you ask them. I am sure they monitor this site
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:31:09 PM EDT
I figure there may be more than one answer with support.

From what I have read it took a while to even make the call and then they were held back in order to ensure their safety.

Basically the feds on site were saying the fire fighters would get shot by those in the burning building if they got close enough to put out the fire.

My info comes from reading a book called, "No more Wacos" and I believe the first video put out about waco said something similar. I have not watched the video in a while, it really makes me angry.

Some searches on the net will turn up sites with the info and like I stated up front, there may be more than one "official" answer.

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:36:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:38:37 PM EDT
read about it when they release the Barret Report.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:39:10 PM EDT
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.




You bet your ass!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.




You bet your ass!




Damn Right!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:42:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.




You bet your ass!



+1
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:46:55 PM EDT
Popcorn check
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:47:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:49:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:50:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
10 pages before the Pit!

ANdy


I'll say 5 pages.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:04:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:04:49 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By biere:
I figure there may be more than one answer with support.

From what I have read it took a while to even make the call and then they were held back in order to ensure their safety.

Basically the feds on site were saying the fire fighters would get shot by those in the burning building if they got close enough to put out the fire.

My info comes from reading a book called, "No more Wacos" and I believe the first video put out about waco said something similar. I have not watched the video in a while, it really makes me angry.

Some searches on the net will turn up sites with the info and like I stated up front, there may be more than one "official" answer.




I was watching the testimoney tonight on the documentary I referenced above. The Agent (forget the name) said the FD showed up quickly, but that it was a split second decision to stop them from going in there

That is the reason he gave yes, though I personally am quite suspicious of it. The Davidians had not fired any shots since the day of the raid. Why would they start now?

Documentary I was watching was called "Waco: The Rules of Engagement

I am holding off my opinion until more have weighed in with theirs.
So far the consensus seems to be that the firetrucks were held off on purpose.
I would like people to explain why, not simply that the firetrucks were held off.
Also - what started the fire?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:05:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:07:03 PM EDT by JeromeAvers]
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:17:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:17:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By home_with_kids:
read about it when they release the Barret Report.



I looked up the report on NRO and it didn't pertain to Waco, just another sleezy Clintonite. Educate me.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:36:38 PM EDT
Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge? He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls. He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:38:57 PM EDT
I call major bullshit on that. hero FBI agents? my ass...... whatever
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:46:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge? He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls. He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety.



There is video evidence alright.
FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building.
This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit.
Who was it firing?

As far as FBI snipers go - let's talk the sniper who was in position Sierra 2 - Lon Horiouchi of Ruby Ridge fame.
A Texas DPS officer reported gunfire from that position.
Horiouchi denied it.
Texas DPS found shell casings in the position, yet Horiouchi insists he did not fire.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:51:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 5:52:20 PM EDT by Freakzilla]
The davidians burned alive,

but the agents that murdered them (and their children!!!) will burn IN HELL forever,

vengence is Gods only
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.



Yup. And to make sure any potentially hostile wittnesses were taken care of too.


-K
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:18:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.



Yup. And to make sure any potentially hostile wittnesses were taken care of too.


-K



Let's not forget about the ATF activity logs that had numerous pages torn out.
Or the shooting reviews that were "cancelled" because they were creating "Brady Material"
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:46:48 PM EDT
FBI sucks

Davidians crazy

FBI murdered them

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:46:59 PM EDT
Me thinks a bump is apropo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:41:21 PM EDT
I have a friend who was hired by the dark side, he finished agent training, somewhere down around savana, in early summer, he's assigned to a department in bowling green.
I haven't seen him since he's officially been an agent to mess with him yet.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:48:01 PM EDT
My Fire dept often stages a few blocks down from scenes untill police can secure the scene.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:02:34 AM EDT
at some press conference whats his name asked whats her face what the ^&%* happened. reno then gave some answer that maily stated "i am a liar and i am using this opportunity to act like i care about your question when in fact i am just stalling with smooth words till people forget what you asked or what happened entirely." and then the people, well, press, that were present, being accustomed to their ignorance and pavlovian programming, clapped like she had actually answered a question.

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny."- Robert A. Heinlein.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:46:22 AM EDT
bump for the day crew.
Almost 800 reads and only 27 replies?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:09:36 AM EDT
My understanding is that the FD didn't go in because the situatoin was not "under control" and that there were reports of Davidians shooting (or ordance going off from the fire).

I've seen both of the "Waco: Rules of Engagement" documentaries and strongly believe there was a major SNAFU on the part of the fed .gov. Did they purposefully nuke the site, I dunno, but a guy who has pretty strong feelings (and pretty darn good knowledge about the incident ) is Eric The Hun.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:24:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.

+1, to make sure that all of the witnesses suffered and burned or convulsed on Cyanide fumes, Koresh was a child screwing fucktard, but killing children is far worse.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:26:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:

To make sure all the evidence was burned up.



+1
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:31:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:

To make sure all the evidence was burned up.



+1



I agree +inifinity.

Can anyone show me the evidence of illegally converted fully functional machineguns that were found at Waco after the fire? Please, show me one machinegun that was not melted together other than the "AK47" that was held up during a press conference. Did the ATF break it down and determine it had been illegally modified? Me thinks not.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:34:40 AM EDT
If you have not seen "Waco, Rules of Engaugement" YOU NEED TO AS A GUN OWNING AMERICAN!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:36:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
If you have not seen "Waco, Rules of Engaugement" YOU NEED TO AS A GUN OWNING AMERICAN!



And after that, you need to see Waco: A New Revelation.
Make sure you are sitting down when you watch it.
The interviews with prior SF/CIA guys will make you feel sick.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:44:47 AM EDT

To make sure all the evidence was burned up.


I FULLY AGREE!!

Why go to all that trouble to start a fire.......just to have it put out?!?!?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:45:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 8:49:59 AM EDT by Dusty_C]

Originally Posted By biere:
I figure there may be more than one answer with support.

From what I have read it took a while to even make the call and then they were held back in order to ensure their safety.

Basically the feds on site were saying the fire fighters would get shot by those in the burning building if they got close enough to put out the fire.

My info comes from reading a book called, "No more Wacos" and I believe the first video put out about waco said something similar. I have not watched the video in a while, it really makes me angry.

Some searches on the net will turn up sites with the info and like I stated up front, there may be more than one "official" answer.


I bet the firefighters were saying that. I have a .22 round in my thigh from a loaded gun in a house fire. I've been a volly firefighter for over 7 years now. With probably 60-65 good hot rollers under me and a couple of hundred smokers. I'm obviously NOT the most experienced fireman around, but experienced enough to tell you I wouldn't be going any closer than 1000 yards to that building while it's burning.


ETA. Not to mention, to let the evidence burn up. Either way, I doubt fireman were gonna be near that building. FBI go ahead or not.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:46:43 AM EDT
All the Government apologists will tell you that the fire trucks were kept back to protect the fireman.

As far as I'm concerned that was the start of the SECOND War of Independence!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:07:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
To make sure all the evidence was burned up.




You bet your ass!




Damn Right!





Bingo!!!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:11:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TUMOR:
As far as I'm concerned that was the start of the SECOND War of Independence!



Heh, and posting on Arfcom is how you stick it to The Man?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:12:49 AM EDT
i was in germany when this happen.
could some one post some links that give the Davidians side and the goverment side.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:16:43 AM EDT
The Feds vehemently denied using incendiary tear gas devices.

Until the Texas Rangers produced the cannisters found in the rubble from their evidence vault.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:17:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
If you have not seen "Waco, Rules of Engaugement" YOU NEED TO AS A GUN OWNING AMERICAN!



And after that, you need to see Waco: A New Revelation.
Make sure you are sitting down when you watch it.
The interviews with prior SF/CIA guys will make you feel sick.



found them both on a torrent and will see if i can download them and then watch them.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:21:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The Feds vehemently denied using incendiary tear gas devices.

Until the Texas Rangers produced the cannisters found in the rubble from their evidence vault.



They also denied shooting from the helicopters until video showed they were...then they back tracked and said they weren't firing the helicopter machine guns.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:25:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The Feds vehemently denied using incendiary tear gas devices.

Until the Texas Rangers produced the cannisters found in the rubble from their evidence vault.



They also denied shooting from the helicopters until video showed they were...then they back tracked and said they weren't firing the helicopter machine guns.




I remember that along with the 40mm shell from firing the CS gas into the Davidian House. Even if the government didn't do anything wrong (which they did), they backtracked so much on there statements that it even makes it look like they totally screwed it all up.

One FBI guy said they never fired a shot. Another said the Davidians shot at the tanks spraying CS gas so much it lit up like a Christmas tree. Yet the evidence speaks the other way around. The FBI snipers nest was full of spent cases while the tanks were unharmed except for their ramming adventures. Hmmm..
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:25:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 9:32:21 AM EDT by TheOtherDave]

Originally Posted By superdav:
FBI sucks

Davidians crazy

FBI murdered them




I'm glad that somebody recognizes that it wasn't only the ATF that did the killing. Most people don't know that after the initial raid, the FBI took over. Most intelligent people can pour over the voluminous evidence available (coroner's reports, senate testimony, video) and come to the obvious conclusion that 90 people were murdered.

No matter how hard the .gov apologists try, you will not get me to agree that 90 men women and children had to be shot, poisoned, crushed, tortured, and burned to death because one man failed to pay a $200 tax to the Federal Government. Take a look at the baby pictures from the coroners office... Broken spines from convulsions relating to cyanide poisoning (burning CS powder). Did those babies deserve that? Why didn't agents arrest Koresh on his daily jog-he was the only one on the warrant.

The only thing that saddens me more than what happened to the Davidians and the mark it left on America was that the Davidians didn't kill more of the kind of agents that would participate in a raid like this. It's my opinion that every man and woman who was there after the initial raid is party to murder.

Here are the autopsies: www.dabney.com/wacomuseum/death/map/d_list00.html

Dave

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:27:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 9:28:10 AM EDT by thedoctors308]
Don't forget that expended flashbangs were found at all 3 points of origin for the fire.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:28:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The Feds vehemently denied using incendiary tear gas devices.

Until the Texas Rangers produced the cannisters found in the rubble from their evidence vault.



They also denied shooting from the helicopters until video showed they were...then they back tracked and said they weren't firing the helicopter machine guns.




Shit, the 911 tapes the davidians made to the city when the shooting started had the sounds of helicopters overhead and bullets coming in the roof. There's video of strafing runs in the two WACO videos.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:31:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The Feds vehemently denied using incendiary tear gas devices.

Until the Texas Rangers produced the cannisters found in the rubble from their evidence vault.



They also denied shooting from the helicopters until video showed they were...then they back tracked and said they weren't firing the helicopter machine guns.




Shit, the 911 tapes the davidians made to the city when the shooting started had the sounds of helicopters overhead and bullets coming in the roof. There's video of strafing runs in the two WACO videos.



And there is video of the guy scraping rust in the water tank being shot by a helicopter.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:37:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

That is the reason he gave yes, though I personally am quite suspicious of it. The Davidians had not fired any shots since the day of the raid. Why would they start now?




Because they had no one to shoot at maybe? It was a siege, remember? It's not like the Feds or anyone else was crawling all over the building during that time, only until the last day, when it was an armored vehicle they were using.




I am holding off my opinion until more have weighed in with theirs.
So far the consensus seems to be that the firetrucks were held off on purpose.
I would like people to explain why, not simply that the firetrucks were held off.



Because of the people with guns in the building that was on fire.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:39:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Wasnt there an FBI sniper that spilled some beans after the Mt. Carmel and Ruby Ridge? He said that he was watching through his scope as Davidians were throwing lanters and Coleman fuel on the ground and walls. He also said, and there is video evidence that some Davidians tried to escape the blaze and that FBI, not ATF, agents went in, while getting shot at to pull these people to safety.



There is video evidence alright.
FLIR tapes of automatic gunfire being used to drive people back into the building.
This is why so many bodies were found, shot to death, crowded around the only undamaged exit.
Who was it firing?


That's right, because the FBI/ATF is a bunch of bloodthirsty killers, and none of the hundred or so agents who were at the scene would have balked when ordered to shoot unarmed women and children.

Where is this videotape? I don't think it exists.

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