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Posted: 5/8/2001 7:51:48 PM EDT
Finally! The State government is considering a full state-wide ban of two-stroke powered personnal watercraft![:D] As most of you know, two stroke engines, while being very powerful for their size are fairly nasty devices. Allowing two strokes on lakes & rivers, where most of us PRK subjects get our water, is like crapping in your refrigerator. What are your oppinions? Paul
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 7:56:40 PM EDT
What's so nasty about a two-stroke? Sure they may smoke a little more than a four but they put out way less pollution per year than a tiny fraction of the autos on the road. Just my .02
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 7:58:46 PM EDT
I don't support any government telling its citizens what they can and cannot power their personnal water craft.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 8:00:12 PM EDT
That asshole Steve (whatever) who was responsible for paving over more of downtown Las Vegas than anyone in recent history led the charge to ban two-cycle watercraft on Lake Tahoe. He's a real environmentalist. Now the Kalifornicators Imperial Dicatators have seen fit to make it "statewide" eh? Figures. D.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 8:02:23 PM EDT
I do like the two strokes.But hate pwcs most people who ride them do not know how to drive they always zig zag and turn right into my path while driving my boat have almost hit those idiots at havasu trying to go up river wide open 70 mph and they turn have you ever tried to steer a boat at that speed to avoid them.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 8:23:58 PM EDT
M15A2: Yes, I agree. This idea should be put before the people for a vote. This "ban" is just being kicked around, and may not materialize. Turok: As a percentage, two-strokes emit less pollution than 4 stroke powered devices, but it is where this pollution goes that I see is different. Watercraft, enjoyed by a minority, pollute the water, which is needed by all. Paul
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 8:23:59 PM EDT
I heard on some news show about a year ago that the typical 2-stroke boat motor puts out more pollution in a couple of hours than the typical newer car does in a year, but then again you know how those news folks can be....
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 8:26:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:27:19 PM EDT
I remember as a kid we used to swim and fish at this little reservoir called Puddingstone in Bonelli Regional Park in San Dimas, CA. They changed the policy to allow speedboats and PWC, and within a couple of years the lake had a permanent gasoline/oil slick on the surface. I have no problems with powerboats on lakes, but if the water is for drinking any time soon, I’m against it. MTBE makes the situation worse because it persistent and pollutes the hell out of the water supply.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:43:00 PM EDT
This is all a bunch of bullshit! The newer (yes, the older "jet skis" do pollute) PWC (Personal Water Craft) do not pollute anywhere near as much as they used to. Neat things like MODERN TECHNOLOGY have made the pollution problems of the past just that, the past. Kalifornication banned all two stroke dirt bikes and ATV's off of public land and no one complained. They only relented when the industry and the FEDERAL EPA proved that they make less pollution in the time that they are actually used than the vehicles that transport them to the riding areas do. Now you can operate 2 stroke dirt bikes and ATV's in certain arears during certain times of the year. I agree that there are plenty of fukkin morons on PWC's who have no clue about how to operate them. Then again I can say the same thing about the morons in their lowboard boats with the 455 Olds motors in them, the guys doing 100 mph across Havasu at 6am when the fishing guys are trying to do a little fishing. To me it's about PUBLIC LAND! Why in the fukk should some asswipe like Bill klinton tell me how I can or can not use our public land. I think that there should be areas set aside for PWC's, race boats, fishing, skiing, rafting, and just getting drunk and sunburned. Most of what you see in the water from the dischage of the exhaust evaporates off of the water within a couple of hours. The oils that are used today are low in ash, and are of a cleaner burning and more refined grade of oil.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:43:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2001 9:48:18 PM EDT by HANGFIRE]
Originally Posted By RealOaf: Finally! The State government is considering a full state-wide ban of two-stroke powered personnal watercraft![:D]
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Your dancing on a lot of peoples paychecks and freedoms. The next step is the harm to the enviroment from two cycle atvs. Then scooters, mopeds, skateboards
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:44:25 PM EDT
Part of the problem that I have with a total ban on two strokes is that it will end all development of that type of an engine. Honda and Yamaha both have direct injection 2 stroke engines that use a sump to lubricate the bottom end. However, neither company wants to develop them to the point where they will be commercialy viable. They will end up getting a sharp stick in the ass broken off if all two strokes are banned from public waters, not to mention all of the money lost in development costs. There are also 4 stroke PWC's in the works, their problems are that they are heavy and expensive. Think about this: Some of the lakes above LA that allow PWC's also allow public swimming. I don't even wanna guess about how many people and animals (wild and domestic) shit and piss either in the water or near the water drainage areas. About the MTB shit in the gasoline: A very smart gearhead (God rest his soul) Gordon Jennings tried to tell both the EPA and the CARB that MTB's were 10 times worse than tetraeythel lead. And if you follow the bullshit that is going on right now with MTB's you can find out that he was 100% right, and that the oil industry, the EPA and the CARB knew about it. He once said that in LA alone there is more methane gas produced by all of the humans living in the LA area than what is produced by automobiles in LA in one day. He thought that if the ecocommienazi's were serious about trying to cut down on greenhouse gasses that they would ban Mexican food from LA! I myself think that as long as I am not a "gross polluter" and that I am not "destroying really sensitive areas" and that I am not "bothering" anyone that I should be allowed to use OUR public lands in a responsible way. There should be areas set aside for everyone. I can agree with the dope smokin Volvo driving day hikers that they should not have to listen to the sounds of my dirtbike, or that Billy-Bob in his pontoon boat sould not have to worry about my cutting him off on my PWC and making him spill his beer. I also think that I should have a palce where I can ride my dirt bike and not worry about the failed goatee head Volvo drining hiker getting in my way when I am ripping it up on a marked and legal dirt bike trail, I should not have to worry about Billy-Bob in his pontoon boat trying to cut me off on my PWC just because he wants to impress the rest of his drunk-ass buddies that he can do it "just for the hell of it". These are issues where we all need to come together and fight for OUR rights and OUR public lands!
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:45:58 PM EDT
I'm getting kind of tired of bans on products because they sometimes cause harm. Why not instead focus on the ways they cause harm. If you have oil floating to the top of a glass of water because motorized watercraft are used in the lake where it comes from, that may be a good justification for banning such activity in that lake. It is pointless to prohibit someone from using a 2 cycle personal watercraft in the ocean in an attempt to solve a pollution problem 100 miles away. Don't trust a government that doesn't trust you to own a 2 cycle personal watercraft.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 10:00:46 PM EDT
To bad, no more pro motocross/supercross, grand prix motorcycle racing. big$$$ for kali. what's next weedeaters? model airplanes/boats/cars
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 10:31:30 PM EDT
Here is something I find funny.... The Ojai River in Ventura, it runs through a canyon where some of the first oil wells were drilled in Kalifornia. Back around the late 1800's and early 1900's the oil used to seep up out of the ground and on hot days it would actually flow into the river. From the river it would flow into the ocean. The local Chumash Native Americans used to use the tar that would seep up to seal their canoes, in fact they had some of the best open ocean going canoes on the west coast. Now after what, 100 years of oil pumping from the area there is still a little bit of oil that leaks out or seeps from the ground. Only now the EPA and Kalifornicommication fine the oil companies that are drilling or had active wells on the land for pollution. WTF!! Soemthing that has happened in nature for probably thousands of years is not the fault of someone who pumped the stuff out of the ground within the last 100 years? It is OK for the City of Santa Monica and LA County to pump millions of gallons of "treated" shitwater a quarter mile off of the coast of Santa Monica and Malibu yet I can't operate my PWC withing 100 yards of the beach and I can't launch from the beach because of the pollution it causes? As far as Puddingstone goes, well, that little lake has always been a shithole from the time I used to go there. Guess what used to be around that area before LA grew up around it? Can you say FARMS and LIVESTOCK? Guess what used to drain into the lake when it rained? And it has been proven that PWC's and boating contribute less direct pollution to the water than a parking lot full of cars that are dripping oil, trannie fluid, and anti-freeze onto the ground that OH BY THE WAY makes it into the lake during the infreaquent LA rain storms! How about all of the dog and cat shit that people chuck over their retaining walls into the LA river and the rest of the concrete creeks, streams, and rivers in the LA basin? When that first big storm of the season hit the San Gaberials and the LA basin all of thsoe concrete channels become nothing more than one big huge shit river!! It's not about "pollution prevention", it's about the ending of personal freedoms!!
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 10:53:56 PM EDT
Actually, Puddingstone wasn't too bad when we went there as kids in the 60's, but by the time we were in HS I believe the common name was "Puddingsh*t". And it's true, it was never pristine. Up here in the bay area I think most reservoirs are off limits. No boating of any kind except for maybe paddle boats. This isn't Minnesota, we have to preserve every stinking drop of water we have. Our last drought lasted 7 years and it was a nightmare. If the water is not for drinking, what the hell? I have no problem with boats, power or otherwise. But if it really is drinking water, that's a different story.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:34:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: This is all about the MTBE contamination. Remember that the environmental-Nazis demanded that MTBE be added to the gas so that it would burn cleaner? Well, tons of money (our money) was spent to convert over to MTBE gas, only to discover that MBTE is horrible for the environment. Now we're paying to convert back to the non-MTBE gas, but the damage has been done.-Troy
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I know that the Ultramar Refinery in Willmington,CA(L.A. suburb) spent several hundred million dollars to upgrade their refinery to make Calif. legal gasoline. The people in the state legislature don't know how complicated the process to produce gasoline. If the Calif govt was in charge making gasoline, there would be explosions all over the place.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:39:36 PM EDT
Pre-ban waverunners? With 2-stroke evil features? Sounds like something I need.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:59:32 PM EDT
I don't know about watercraft, but the leaf blowers here are a nuisance! The guys come on even the windiest days and blow shit all over my car and the parking lot. The smoke gets in my apartment and it is nasty! I wouldn't want the government to ban them, I would just like a little more common sense in their usage and maybe an alternative like a 4-stroke engine, electric, or hey, give the guys a rake! They use the things in many inappropriate situations, just to keep looking busy walking around with that ungodly loud engine on a backpack earning $2.00/hr (cheap, illegal immingrant labor is the norm here).
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 1:04:13 PM EDT
Do we have to register them too or do they just kick in your garage and seize them? This sucks. I believe that CA should by severed from the continent and slowly let to drift over to Japan. They are trying to do that at Lake Mead here. The only good thing out of it is that we will probably see some pretty wicked four stroke seadoos [X] Ice
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 1:22:50 PM EDT
wilmington a suburb? now thats funny i think LA city is/was in the process of banning gas leaf blowers, but the gardners all showed up and protested, i think the city was going to buy them back or trade them in on electric ones. probably the reason they banned PWC at lake tahoe is that the pollution has been a real issue there, less water clearity. i think they said the smog coming out of sacramento was directly responsible for it. if it werent for all these damn mountains everywhere we might not have these problems, and the wind would blow away the air pollution
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 1:23:58 PM EDT
The typical crankcase scavenges carburated two stroke is super polluting. A large fraction of the fuel air mixture escapes out of the exhaust port during the intake phase. Someone mentioned direct injection two strokes. Since the fuel is not injected until after the exhaust port closes, they can be made as clean as a 4 stroke and retain the power/weight ratio of a 2 stroke. A more resonsible approach would be to set emissions requirements
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 1:30:55 PM EDT
Hell, lets invent an engine that will run on BULLSHIT. That way we could solve the energy crisis out in the PRK. As much BULLSHIT as comes out of Hollywood they would never need any outher power source.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:47:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 2:46:39 PM EDT by Matt_S]
[b]The only ban I will ever support, would be a ban on banning things!!!![/b] This used to be a free country. Here we all fight the ban on guns, but we turn around and want to ban somthing else? WTF! First personal watercraft Next classic cars Next Lawn Mowers Next ........... where do you stop, once you've started?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:26:26 PM EDT
Someone mentioned noisy leafblowers. I would say that most home and garden applications could use some of the new four stroke technology to create a light, quiet weedeater or leafblower. But nothing does it for me quite like the sound of my 150 horsepower ski-doo 700, twin pipes resonating at 9000 rpm going up the steepest stuff imaginable.[:D] Anyone else here nuts about snowmobiling?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:40:55 PM EDT
I'm not a gearhead but aren't just about all outboard boat engines 2 stroke? You have to add oil to the gas.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:57:51 PM EDT
Gasoline powered leaf blowers are already banned in a number of cities in CA. I say good riddance.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 10:39:47 PM EDT
Those of you who are talkin' smack about 2-strokes have obviously never ridden a KX500 before. MG
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