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9/17/2020 5:59:48 PM
Posted: 12/24/2015 7:53:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 7:57:43 AM EDT
I'm going with ...someone leaned on the pilot pushing the cyclic down.
But then again, I don't know shit about helicopters.
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 8:08:09 AM EDT
Inland gust caught pilot by surprise.
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 8:55:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2015 8:59:46 AM EDT by slanted]
He was touching the pad, but did not really have much weight on it, so that bird was still flying for the moment.  I guess I can believe wind was a factor.

A lot of these tourist guys are not the most experienced too, and I believe it for this guy too, so factor that in when buffeted by the wind.





Edit for clarity.
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 12:43:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 1:18:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Quarterback55:
Inland gust caught pilot by surprise.
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Big time gust up the tail.
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 2:16:23 PM EDT
Hard to say. I would think there might have been a bit of an altitude gain with the pitching forward, but then again, my only helicopter experience is in the R22 which weighs nothing and is thus very easily tossed about. A significant gust of wind of that magnitude would, in my mind, also have tossed the photographer around some also. I won't say wind isn't a factor, but perhaps there was another contributing cause along with it?
Link Posted: 12/25/2015 12:14:04 AM EDT
I agree with CFII

Vince
Link Posted: 12/25/2015 9:22:11 AM EDT
If it was a tour helicopter, they wouldn't have had the duals in.  How would have a passenger reached over the pilots shoulder or lap?

Also, if the collective was coming down, there's not enough pitch to pull it over like that.  Maybe he was still really light on skids.

Hydraulic failure or hard over is always a possibility.  Guess we'll see.
Link Posted: 12/25/2015 1:24:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CFII:
Im going with full forward cyclic input due to passenger. No wind short of a tornado is going to pick the tail up, with its tiny little horizontal stab, and damn near flip the fucking thing over.
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Slow motion on the video shows the control inputs on the main rotor, I think your guess may turn out to be correct.
Link Posted: 12/25/2015 1:33:06 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CFII:
Im going with full forward cyclic input due to passenger. No wind short of a tornado is going to pick the tail up, with its tiny little horizontal stab, and damn near flip the fucking thing over.
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Looks like someone pulled power.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 5:49:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2015 10:55:28 PM EDT by Indrid-Cold]
Watched it a few times.
Pilot had good directional control to touchdown.
Still had collective pitch in blades when cyclic was pushed forward from passenger, object whatever....
Pilot pulled collective in a conditioned reaction to regain control but too late.

Doubt it was solely an inland gust. That would have to be one hell of a tail gust to
push a loaded Astar that violently forward uncommanded without contributing pilot induced errors.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 5:55:53 PM EDT
I lived in Fiji for two months doing construction. The wind there will fuck you if your not carful. There is a reason downtown is all concrete walls and hurricane Windows.
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 10:25:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 10:57:13 PM EDT
More updates from here:

Crash Update
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 12:30:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2015 12:34:07 AM EDT by UV18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Indrid-Cold:
Watched it a few times.
Pilot had good directional control to touchdown.
Still had collective pitch in blades when cyclic was pushed forward from passenger, object whatever....
Pilot pulled collective in a conditioned reaction to regain control but too late.

Doubt it was solely an inland gust. That would have to be one hell of a tail gust to
push a loaded Astar that violently forward uncommanded without contributing pilot induced errors.
View Quote


I agree. Having landed there too.

ETA- the winds can be gusty, but you can see the skids hit and them begin to take on weight. I have ran into some interesting pilots too. Met a couple that flew into the main ridge on the main island the next day. It wasn't a new ridge or route. They just chose to fly low that day.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 9:16:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2015 9:17:06 AM EDT by bionic589]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Indrid-Cold:
More updates from here:

Crash Update
View Quote


This article makes the case for a gust of wing that brings the tail up, then the pilot pulls power which causes the forward acceleration and crash.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 9:57:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2015 9:59:34 AM EDT by burntcrispy]
I know very little about helos but have ridden them in HI and other vacation spots several times.  The ones in HI only have one set of controls for the pilot, the other seat is usually modified to hold 2 passengers (usually for a big bump in price for the "premium" view) and has no input controls.  

Seeing this reinforces my decision to stop flying on those tour helocopters.   I was in Alaska last year flying on one and the pilot was a young 20s millennial douchebag who did not look or act professionally.  We were following another helocopter up to a glacier and this guy got a little too close to the lead helocopter for my liking. I'm sure it wasn't dangerous for a military guy who has experience flying formation and whatnot but that is not who was flying this helicopter.  This guy was a low hour guy building time.

The year before that I was in Hilo on the Big Island and the dude flying took us into heavy rain trying to show us a waterfall.   His head was bobbing every which way trying to find ground reference then he whipped it around to turn back still desperately looking around until finding the coastline.  We followed it back to the airport.  I could see that he was visibly nervous which my wife also commented on.
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 12:41:17 PM EDT
Here's another video someone posted on another forum of another rocky landing in somewhere tropical.  No question on this one......guy wasn't on the pad all the way, just like the crash in California.  Instead of trying to muscle it on, he was smart enough to leave.

https://www.facebook.com/ruy.flemming/videos/10208233629229257/

Link Posted: 12/29/2015 3:22:26 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By delorean:
Here's another video someone posted on another forum of another rocky landing in somewhere tropical.  No question on this one......guy wasn't on the pad all the way, just like the crash in California.  Instead of trying to muscle it on, he was smart enough to leave.

https://www.facebook.com/ruy.flemming/videos/10208233629229257/

View Quote



What caused the abrupt forward pitch?
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 6:07:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2015 6:11:06 PM EDT by delorean]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By burntcrispy:



What caused the abrupt forward pitch?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By burntcrispy:
Originally Posted By delorean:
Here's another video someone posted on another forum of another rocky landing in somewhere tropical.  No question on this one......guy wasn't on the pad all the way, just like the crash in California.  Instead of trying to muscle it on, he was smart enough to leave.

https://www.facebook.com/ruy.flemming/videos/10208233629229257/




What caused the abrupt forward pitch?


The pilot overreaction/overcontrol.......he wasn't on the pad all the way.  He felt the thing start to fall backward off the pad.  He went forward cyclic and up collective at the same time gets you a lot more of a pitch forward than just forward cyclic.  Not anything you really practice for, but the he would have been ok with just applying pitch and a little forward cyclic after he was back off the ground.  It was a natural reaction and a "oh $hit" moment--he got lucky.
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 6:33:20 PM EDT
Island Hoppers?  If TC was flying that wouldn't have happened.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 4:42:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 4:45:56 PM EDT by Indrid-Cold]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By delorean:


The pilot overreaction/overcontrol.......he wasn't on the pad all the way.  He felt the thing start to fall backward off the pad.  He went forward cyclic and up collective at the same time gets you a lot more of a pitch forward than just forward cyclic.  Not anything you really practice for, but the he would have been ok with just applying pitch and a little forward cyclic after he was back off the ground.  It was a natural reaction and a "oh $hit" moment--he got lucky.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By delorean:
Originally Posted By burntcrispy:
Originally Posted By delorean:
Here's another video someone posted on another forum of another rocky landing in somewhere tropical.  No question on this one......guy wasn't on the pad all the way, just like the crash in California.  Instead of trying to muscle it on, he was smart enough to leave.

https://www.facebook.com/ruy.flemming/videos/10208233629229257/




What caused the abrupt forward pitch?


The pilot overreaction/overcontrol.......he wasn't on the pad all the way.  He felt the thing start to fall backward off the pad.  He went forward cyclic and up collective at the same time gets you a lot more of a pitch forward than just forward cyclic.  Not anything you really practice for, but the he would have been ok with just applying pitch and a little forward cyclic after he was back off the ground.  It was a natural reaction and a "oh $hit" moment--he got lucky.


Performed touchdown like he was afraid of a blade strike against the building.
No reason not to center the skids between the corner markers.

Only half on the raised LZ.  
Dumps way too much collective letting aircraft settle aft when he should have been light on skids to feel the ground.
Over reaction with forward cyclic, up collective which added gobs of torque causing spin.
Panic sets in fighting to re-gain control.
Loses situational awareness and turns tail toward building (and downwind).
Lucky, lucky, lucky fellow.









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