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Posted: 2/10/2014 11:45:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
Update for 2022 - Is there any interest it getting this going again, with a less demanding schedule? This stuff is more important than ever. Thanks to Mods/Staff for keeping this out of the archives!
The arfcom site update was not kind to the formatting and I need to go through and fix the broken links. Bear with me.  Disregard the schedule/dates. Any and all contributions welcome. Related to this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1588605_Have_you_read_any_Federalist_Papers____Update_on_2___Anti_Federalist_.html  Figures in the painting This is a thread for those interested in reading and discussing the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate. If you have read neither side, one side, or both sides, this thread is for you. Use it how you wish. If you have already read some, read just what you have missed, reread them, skim them, or just discuss the week's readings. Post passages, questions, thoughts, whatever. I will try to keep it indexed so that people joining late can catch up or just jump right it. Ultimately, this is meant to be an educational thread and I ask that (when necessary ) you be helpful to each other. The founders pledged to each other their lives, fortunes and sacred honor. Honor them by giving up a little time every week. Whether this thread succeeds or drops to the archives is up to YOU. This thread will be what you make of it. Some background on the writings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifederalist_Papers Sources for the Readings (Free, unless noted) Federalist http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/federalist-papers https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/fed/federa00.htm Anti-Federalist http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/anti-federalist-papers Ebooks http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1404 -Federalist epub, kindle, html https://www.thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/The-Anti-Federalist-Papers-Special-Edition.pdf - Anti-Federalist pdf https://archive.org/details/TheAntiFederalistPapers - Anti-Federalist all formats Audio Books https://librivox.org/the-federalist-papers-by-alexander-hamilton-john-jay-and-james-madison/ - Federalist https://librivox.org/the-anti-federalist-papers-by-patrick-henry/ - Anti-Federalist Apps https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/constitution-federalist-papers/id378120928 - Commentary not vetted for accuracy https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.twismart.thefederalistpapers - The Federalist Papers https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.constitutioncenter.theinteractiveconstitution - NCCS The Interactive Constitution https://apps.apple.com/us/app/interactive-constitution/id1147260877 - NCCS The Interactive Constitution 1828 Dictionary http://webstersdictionary1828.com/ Supplemental Reading https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/farrand-the-records-of-the-federal-convention-of-1787-3vols - The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/elliot-the-debates-in-the-several-state-conventions-5-vols - Jonathan Elliot, The Debates in the Several State Conventions https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/elliot.htm Leviathan - Hobbes The Two Treatises of Civil Government - Locke The Social Contract and Discourses - Rousseau https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/stylistic-artistry-of-the-declaration https://constitutioncenter.org/ Browser Add-ons Textmarker - Firefox Highlighter + Notes - Firefox Weeva Highlighter - Chrome/Brave Recommended reading prior to Week 1: Franklin's speech on the Consitiution, Z's response In the interest of keeping things simple, I used Borden's popular ordering/selection of the Anti-Federalist writings.
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Posted: 2/10/2014 11:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#1]
Subject guide adapted from the Wikipedia page and here (Note, this is intended for reference and may differ from the above schedule.) Readings that are not included on the schedule will be in bold.
Subject -----------------------------------Anti-Federalist --------------Federalist
Additional Resources Relating to the Period http://constitution.org/c5/ http://oll.libertyfund.org/ Online Library of Liberty http://teachingamericanhistory.org/ratification/timeline-federalist/ http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/story-of-america http://loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html Thomas Jefferson Exhibit http://avalon.law.yale.edu/default.asp The Avalon Project http://mises.org/Literature Foundational Documents and Readings Second Treatise of Government by John Locke The Magna Carta English Bill of Rights 1689 The Declaration of Arbroath 1320 (Scotland's Declaration of Independence) The Dutch Declaration of Independence, 1581 The Spirit of the Laws by Montesquieu Commentaries on the Laws of England by Sir William Blackstone |
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Posted: 2/11/2014 6:01:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#2]
Placeholder
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MN, USA
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:12:33 PM EDT
[#3]
IN. Thanks OP - will be participating.
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:15:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Anti-Federalist papers are much better.
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:21:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan: Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Also I suggest the ratification debates as they spell out what was actually ratified as opposed to arguments leading up to the contests in the several states.... Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all.
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:29:37 PM EDT
[#6]
IN and tag!
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:31:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CONKLE73:
Indeed... Also I suggest the ratification debates as they spell out what was actually ratified as opposed to arguments leading up to the contests in the several states.... Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CONKLE73:
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all. I honestly think my favorite is Franklin's Opposition to Executive Salaries. "Besides these evils, Sir, though we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be of long continuance. Reasons will never be wanting for proposed augmentations. And there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more money to them." His prophecy of our current state is absolutely eerie... |
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:46:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EasTexan]
[#8]
OP, I hope this thread takes off but I'm not holding my breath.
Ive tried to get GD to have discussions on 18th century political philosophy. It just never catches with all of the .22 ammo and guilty or not guilty thread on page one. 
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:47:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Subscribing.
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:51:53 PM EDT
[#10]
IN
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:52:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Old school is now new school once again.
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Posted: 2/11/2014 9:57:43 PM EDT
[#12]
In
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Posted: 2/11/2014 10:02:27 PM EDT
[#13]
In. I read the first few on my kindle earlier this week
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Posted: 2/11/2014 10:03:54 PM EDT
[#14]
tag
been waiting for this one |
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Posted: 2/11/2014 10:25:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CONKLE73: Indeed... Also I suggest the ratification debates as they spell out what was actually ratified as opposed to arguments leading up to the contests in the several states.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CONKLE73: Originally Posted By EasTexan: Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Also I suggest the ratification debates as they spell out what was actually ratified as opposed to arguments leading up to the contests in the several states.... Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all. I'm glad you brought that up, I almost forgot to add the ebook version of the debates. Thank you, sir. |
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Posted: 2/11/2014 10:27:13 PM EDT
[#16]
In on this
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Posted: 2/11/2014 10:47:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 74novaman:
Subscribing. |
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Posted: 2/11/2014 11:01:43 PM EDT
[#18]
In
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Posted: 2/12/2014 1:26:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan: OP, I hope this thread takes off but I'm not holding my breath. Ive tried to get GD to have discussions on 18th century political philosophy. It just never catches with all of the .22 ammo and guilty or not guilty thread on page one. I did consider naming the thread "neckbeards buying up all of the pressure washers?" for the cheap views. I know what you mean, but on the other hand I think the ongoing nature of this one could give it a chance. Like a snowball rolling downhill, interest will hopefully grow as we progress. On the other hand if everyone does the reading and doesn't post anything, it will die the slow death. So, you lurkers out there, get ready for some posting. Even if it is as little as "Interesting reading this week" or "+1" |
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Posted: 2/12/2014 1:35:43 AM EDT
[#20]
i actually have all of them in a hard bound book
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Posted: 2/12/2014 1:37:52 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: I did consider naming the thread "neckbeards buying up all of the pressure washers?" for the cheap views. I know what you mean, but on the other hand I think the ongoing nature of this one could give it a chance. Like a snowball rolling downhill, interest will hopefully grow as we progress. On the other hand if everyone does the reading and doesn't post anything, it will die the slow death. So, you lurkers out there, get ready for some posting. Even if it is as little as "Interesting reading this week" or "+1" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By EasTexan: OP, I hope this thread takes off but I'm not holding my breath. Ive tried to get GD to have discussions on 18th century political philosophy. It just never catches with all of the .22 ammo and guilty or not guilty thread on page one. I did consider naming the thread "neckbeards buying up all of the pressure washers?" for the cheap views. I know what you mean, but on the other hand I think the ongoing nature of this one could give it a chance. Like a snowball rolling downhill, interest will hopefully grow as we progress. On the other hand if everyone does the reading and doesn't post anything, it will die the slow death. So, you lurkers out there, get ready for some posting. Even if it is as little as "Interesting reading this week" or "+1"  bump Still catching up, gathering questions. |
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Posted: 2/12/2014 1:40:53 AM EDT
[#22]
OST
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Posted: 2/12/2014 1:45:25 AM EDT
[#23]
For free people to dissolve the bonds of illegitimate government, we must understand that which came before us. How, for, when and why.
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Posted: 2/12/2014 3:04:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Bool: +1 bump Still catching up, gathering questions.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Bool: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By EasTexan: OP, I hope this thread takes off but I'm not holding my breath. Ive tried to get GD to have discussions on 18th century political philosophy. It just never catches with all of the .22 ammo and guilty or not guilty thread on page one. I did consider naming the thread "neckbeards buying up all of the pressure washers?" for the cheap views. I know what you mean, but on the other hand I think the ongoing nature of this one could give it a chance. Like a snowball rolling downhill, interest will hopefully grow as we progress. On the other hand if everyone does the reading and doesn't post anything, it will die the slow death. So, you lurkers out there, get ready for some posting. Even if it is as little as "Interesting reading this week" or "+1" bump Still catching up, gathering questions. |
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Posted: 2/12/2014 11:37:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Post #1 is now pretty much done. There may be a few minor additions in the next couple of weeks but nothing major.
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Posted: 2/12/2014 11:45:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Subscribed. Nicely done.
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Posted: 2/12/2014 11:49:08 PM EDT
[#27]
You got me. IN!
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Posted: 2/13/2014 4:03:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mp9fan: Subscribed. Nicely done. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mp9fan: Subscribed. Nicely done. Originally Posted By superbowtie: You got me. IN! Thank you, gentlemen. Welcome |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2014 11:05:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Thursday evening bump.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 12:08:10 AM EDT
[#30]
Madison's Journal also has some good stuff contained within.
And in |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 1:12:18 AM EDT
[#31]
Keep in mind that POTUS sent federal troops to dissenting states on two occasions, the first "nullification crisis" quashed by Andrew Jackson. Just because some of our Founders argued for or against a principal doesn't mean it is, or can be accepted by DC as "constitutional". I almost blew a gasket reading Ron Paul's book, and I guess he thinks that because it was argued in the Federalist Papers, it must be the law. Well, at least one of my ancestors was forced to surrender his horse, sword, and belief that States had rights. Before the blood was dry on his saddle it was a settled issue that the tyranny of Washington can and will be forced upon us all. That is the Republic we live in now, and we can only hope to preserve what is left of the Founders' principals as we move forward. Jefferson weeps in his tomb.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 1:31:15 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks for starting the discussion. This subject has always intrigued me being that I grew up in a household with a brilliant mother who was a US history teacher.
I guess I need to do some reading. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 1:33:32 AM EDT
[#33]
Brilliant...!!! |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:26:55 AM EDT
[#34]
Subscribed.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:28:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eli822:
Subscribed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:31:06 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grn06rubi:
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grn06rubi:
Originally Posted By Eli822:
Subscribed. me 2 |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:38:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Giltweasel]
[#37]
Worth reading, even in the face of TL;DR opposition.
It's rare enough to see or hear mention of the Federalist Papers, but it's a near complete information vacuum when anyone brings up the Anti-federalists. I had numerous history professors get the deer in the headlights look just even saying George Mason's name.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:51:49 AM EDT
[#38]
tag -scribed
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ME, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2014 11:18:54 AM EDT
[#39]
I'm game!
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:10:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Giltweasel:
Worth reading, even in the face of TL;DR opposition. It's rare enough to see or hear mention of the Federalist Papers, but it's a near complete information vacuum when anyone brings up the Anti-federalists. I had numerous history professors get the deer in the headlights look just even saying George Mason's name.
Both collections were required readings in my Constitutional History class. I need to dig up the sheet: Since many of the papers were written in response to something the other side had written, we read them in sets for context. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:18:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Giltweasel:
Worth reading, even in the face of TL;DR opposition. It's rare enough to see or hear mention of the Federalist Papers, but it's a near complete information vacuum when anyone brings up the Anti-federalists. I had numerous history professors get the deer in the headlights look just even saying George Mason's name.
Same here, especially in my poli sci classes. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:21:03 PM EDT
[#42]
Thank you for doing this. It will be a great thread.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:23:18 PM EDT
[#43]
In on 1 :)
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Posted: 2/14/2014 3:23:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan:
Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Also this.
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Posted: 2/14/2014 4:02:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan:
I honestly think my favorite is Franklin's Opposition to Executive Salaries. "Besides these evils, Sir, though we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be of long continuance. Reasons will never be wanting for proposed augmentations. And there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more money to them." His prophecy of our current state is absolutely eerie... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan:
Originally Posted By CONKLE73:
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all. I honestly think my favorite is Franklin's Opposition to Executive Salaries. "Besides these evils, Sir, though we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be of long continuance. Reasons will never be wanting for proposed augmentations. And there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more money to them." His prophecy of our current state is absolutely eerie... Not really. The President Of The United States gets paid dirt compared to the CEO of an equally sized company. There is no equally sized company, so don't bother trying to check. That principle sounds noble, but it isn't. It would ensure that only the very rich could pursue politics. Government should not be the exclusive province of the very rich. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 4:30:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sigp226:
Not really. The President Of The United States gets paid dirt compared to the CEO of an equally sized company. There is no equally sized company, so don't bother trying to check. That principle sounds noble, but it isn't. It would ensure that only the very rich could pursue politics. Government should not be the exclusive province of the very rich. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
Originally Posted By CONKLE73:
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
Anti-Federalist papers are much better. Specifically the transcripts from the ratification convention in Virginia. University of Wisconsin has them all. I honestly think my favorite is Franklin's Opposition to Executive Salaries. "Besides these evils, Sir, though we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be of long continuance. Reasons will never be wanting for proposed augmentations. And there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more money to them." His prophecy of our current state is absolutely eerie... Not really. The President Of The United States gets paid dirt compared to the CEO of an equally sized company. There is no equally sized company, so don't bother trying to check. That principle sounds noble, but it isn't. It would ensure that only the very rich could pursue politics. Government should not be the exclusive province of the very rich. If your rationale for paying the President anything at all is that doing so enables those who are not "very rich" to become President, I have to disagree with you. The resources required to have a realistic shot at the office far exceed any reasonable salary. The difference between $0 and $200k / year is negligible. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 4:39:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EasTexan:
Anti-Federalist papers are much better. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 6:58:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Giltweasel: Worth reading, even in the face of TL;DR opposition. It's rare enough to see or hear mention of the Federalist Papers, but it's a near complete information vacuum when anyone brings up the Anti-federalists. I had numerous history professors get the deer in the headlights look just even saying George Mason's name. None of my professors spent any time on the Anti-Federalists either. My only exposure was reading some of them on my own, maybe 15 years ago. |
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Posted: 2/14/2014 7:47:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PanzerOfDoom: Madison's Journal also has some good stuff contained within. And in Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PanzerOfDoom: Madison's Journal also has some good stuff contained within. And in Good call. For anyone interested, it can be found here along with everything else Madison. http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?id=1350&option=com_content&task=view The below has Madison's federal convention writings included, though I'm not sure it is a complete record. The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand Farrand's Records remains the single best source for discussions of the Constitutional Convention. The notes taken at that time by James Madison, and later revised by him, form the largest single block of material other than the official proceedings. The three volumes also includes notes and letters by many other participants, as well as the various constitutional plans proposed during the convention. |
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Posted: 2/15/2014 2:42:38 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto:
If your rationale for paying the President anything at all is that doing so enables those who are not "very rich" to become President, I have to disagree with you. The resources required to have a realistic shot at the office far exceed any reasonable salary. The difference between $0 and $200k / year is negligible. If you think that, I suggest you try living on less than nothing for four years. Remember that all your other obligations will not be suspended during this time. |
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