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Posted: 1/13/2005 6:23:55 AM EDT
Los Angeles Times
January 13, 2005

Fallouja Insurgents Fought Under Influence Of Drugs, Marines Say

Troops note the caches found and rebels' ability to keep going even after being severely wounded.

By Tony Perry, Times Staff Writer

FALLOUJA, Iraq — Although the ferocity of insurgents is generally attributed to religious fervor and a hatred of America, Marines who participated in the November assault on Fallouja say many of their foes also had something else to bolster their tenacity: drugs.

The Marines say they found numerous stockpiles of needles and drugs such as adrenaline and amphetamines while battling insurgents in the fiercest urban combat waged by U.S. forces since the Vietnam War.

In some homes used by insurgents, crack pipes were found, the Marines say.

Senior U.S. military officials in Iraq said that some of the drug caches discovered during the Fallouja offensive had an estimated street value of several thousand dollars.

Top military officials consider the discoveries to be evidence not just of drug use among insurgents, but also of smuggling operations that they say the Sunni Muslim rebels in Fallouja may have been using to finance the insurgency.

"They are just as likely to be indications of drug smuggling as insurgents being doped up to provide stamina or have the courage to fight and die," a senior military official in Baghdad said.

Officers in Iraq say soldiers and Marines found similar evidence of drug use among Shiite Muslim militiamen during April and August uprisings in Najaf.

The conduct of many of the insurgents during the fighting in Fallouja suggested that they had ingested drugs that enabled them to continue fighting even after being severely wounded, Marines and Navy medical corpsmen say.

"One guy described it as like watching the 'Night of the Living Dead,' " corpsman Peter Melady said. "People who should have been dead were still alive."

Marines say the information prompted them to change their strategy.

"On the second day of the fight, word came down to focus on head shots, that body shots were not good enough," said 1st Lt. Tim Strabbing, a platoon leader with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, one of the lead units in the assault to oust the insurgents. The battalion, known as the Thundering Third, suffered 23 dead and 300 wounded.

Strabbing said his platoon found five locations with stockpiles of needles and adrenaline. "My guys put five [machine gun] rounds into a guy who just stood there and took it and then took off running," he said.

Stimulants enable the body to continue functioning despite mortal wounds, forestalling, although not preventing, death, medical experts say.

Many combat veterans recall watching insurgents in Fallouja who had been shot at close range return fire and hurl grenades at Marines who stormed their strongholds.

"We actually shot four or five guys multiple times and they got up and moved across the room," said corpsman Quinton Brown, who had accompanied a front-line platoon to treat wounded Marines.

"It reminded me of the stories you hear about people on PCP who just keep going," 1st Lt. Cosmo Calvin said. "I think it's safe to say that nearly 100% were doped up on this stuff."

Second Lt. Adam Mathes said the fighting tempo of the insurgents seemed to suggest drug use: hyper-energy in the morning and early afternoon, possibly after a fix, and then less energy as the day wore on.

"When you see a house land on somebody and they're still kicking, you know something is wrong," he said.

Times staff writer Mark Mazzetti in Washington contributed to this report.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 6:26:22 AM EDT by 2whiskeyP]
There should be a law against that!


eta, Iraqi zombies!! WTF?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:31:29 AM EDT
We could send in CSI Baghdad to exhume some hadji corpses and run toxicology reports.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:35:45 AM EDT
"1st Lt. Cosmo Calvin"


Cool name.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:40:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 6:41:43 AM EDT by raven]
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:42:15 AM EDT
Hash eaters.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:53:47 AM EDT
I'm a former Marine Grunt. I'm pulling for the right side I promise. I realize there is a big difference between needles and pills but......

Ever heard of "go pills"

What say you gents?

Be gentle. My son just left for Parris Island this week.

Think I'll duck now........



Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:00:06 AM EDT
Maybe the Marines need to use the US army Beehive ammo? Might be a wee bit more effective...

Ben
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:03:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

"On the second day of the fight, word came down to focus on head shots, that body shots were not good enough," .




Fucking zombies.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:08:22 AM EDT
Im sure Allah would be proud of his little crackheads if he were here!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:15:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.




Oh......

oh....god....


Oh.....GOD...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The M14s employed in Somalia were being used as SNIPER rifles. The shots from M4 that went into skinny's heads, spinal column and heart were JUST as effective. When the hell is this shit going to end about .30 cal is SOOOO much better then .223? If .30 cal is SO damn effective, how come OUR troops that are being SHOT WITH 7.62 ARE COMING HOME? What about Klay who got his FAL who was shot in the face with 7.62 and survived. What about the THOUSANDS of men who survived 7.62 hits in Vietnam? 7.62 does not kill people unless it is put were it needs to go JUST LIKE 5.56
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:18:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 7:20:06 AM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By phatmax:

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.




Oh......

oh....god....


Oh.....GOD...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The M14s employed in Somalia were being used as SNIPER rifles. The shots from M4 that went into skinny's heads, spinal column and heart were JUST as effective. When the hell is this shit going to end about .30 cal is SOOOO much better then .223? If .30 cal is SO damn effective, how come OUR troops that are being SHOT WITH 7.62 ARE COMING HOME? What about Klay who got his FAL who was shot in the face with 7.62 and survived. What about the THOUSANDS of men who survived 7.62 hits in Vietnam? 7.62 does not kill people unless it is put were it needs to go JUST LIKE 5.56



Dont have a cow.

Some Delta operators used M-14's as combat rifles, not sniper rifles. They were chastised for doing so. "What's with the big heavy rifles with smaller magazines?" The answer became clear in combat.

I am just relaying what I read in the book.

I would venture our guys shot by 7,62x39 are surviving because of the ceramic plate that hasn't been in widespread use until this conflict.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:19:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.



More like XM177--I'm pretty sure no one was using M-4s.


Originally Posted By raven:
7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.



I only know of one '14 in use (by one of the Delta snipers who saved Micheal Durant), and the user didn't survive. IIRC, Durant was on the wrong side of the crashed helicopter to witness the effects of the '14. Not sure if Somoli witnesess add anything to this.

At least on M-60 gunner reported multiple bursts into an old guy with little apperent effect.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:25:22 AM EDT
Historical precidance exists; US in the Philipiens (sp?), .38 wouldn't stop doped-up muslums, and the Brits had a bad time with Hash heads inthe 1800's (Kartoom, Sudan?)...
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:26:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Some Delta operators used M-14's as combat rifles, not sniper rifles. They were chastised for doing so. "What's with the big heavy rifles with smaller magazines?" The answer became clear in combat.



The only use of '14s by Delta that I know of was by snipers. One of the snipers that went down to Durant's crash site had a '14.

Delta was devided into the assault force that used entry tactics, and support troops in the air. The assault force used XM177s (or similar), the Delta in the air also have M16s and at least one M14.

The short 10.5" or 11.5" barrels and M855 ammo is a bad combination. But that wasn't widly known at the time.


Originally Posted By raven:
I am just relaying what I read in the book.

I would venture our guys shot by 7,62x39 are surviving because of the ceramic plate that hasn't been in widespread use until this conflict.



Guys shot by 7.62x39 have a high survival rate dating back to Vietnam. Domestically, the data I've seen for 7.62x39 victims indicates a high survival rate as well.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jm03:
Im sure Allah would be proud of his little crackheads if he were here!



Under islam everything is banned, but anything goes
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:31:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redpine:
Historical precidance exists; US in the Philipiens (sp?), .38 wouldn't stop doped-up muslums, and the Brits had a bad time with Hash heads inthe 1800's (Kartoom, Sudan?)...



The .30-40 Krag had problems along with the .38 LC.

The British .45 Martini-Henry worked well, but the .303 Lee Metford had "stopping power" issues. The Brits resorted to soft point (the Dum-Dum arsenal in India) and hollow point ammo. Just goes to show, it is the perminate wound cavity and not any magical property of velocity, that gets the job done.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:32:25 AM EDT
Agreed that armor is effective, but I have read the book several times and my general impression was that the men that got killed in Somalia by rifle fire were hit in vital spots. My impression of the fight in BHD was that nearly everyone got hit by something, but the guys that died, mostly were just zapped instantly. The Delta guys who ate it during that whole conflict were shot in the head a great deal and the skateboard helmets offered no protection. That conflict is responsible for the MICH helmet being developed. That being the instance, 155mm, 81mm, 7.62mm, 5.56, .17HMR, a head shot is going to get you.
The Ceramic plate are no great shakes either, 3 hit or so with a rifle round and they start coming apart. Plus, they are a bit larger then a sheet of paper. Take a pice of paper and cover your chest with it...... not exactly confidence inspiring, there is a LOT of open spots to get hit in.

Armor did not play as much of a role in VN, and still the survival rate was pretty high, due to medevac to stop bleeding wounds. I need to find the numbers, but the percentage of gunshot wounds that made it to the hospital and survived was very large. So... either you got shot with an AK and died right then and there, Got shot with an AK and survive only to get delayed getting help and bleed out, or get shot and get helped and survive. Pretty much the same thing that will happen with a 5.56.

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:35:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Some Delta operators used M-14's as combat rifles, not sniper rifles. They were chastised for doing so. "What's with the big heavy rifles with smaller magazines?" The answer became clear in combat.

I am just relaying what I read in the book.



No, you're misremembering it.
The book included exactly ONE operator with an M14, and the bit about him being mocked for it IMHO was authorial license or a report from third-hand misunderstood.
And if you READ the book, you will see that the Skinnies didn't go down for the M60 with its identical 7.62x51 round either.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 8:01:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
We could send in CSI Baghdad to exhume some hadji corpses and run toxicology reports.



Yeah! They would have it solved in 45 minutes!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 8:01:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By phatmax:
Armor did not play as much of a role in VN, and still the survival rate was pretty high, due to medevac to stop bleeding wounds. I need to find the numbers, but the percentage of gunshot wounds that made it to the hospital and survived was very large. So... either you got shot with an AK and died right then and there, Got shot with an AK and survive only to get delayed getting help and bleed out, or get shot and get helped and survive. Pretty much the same thing that will happen with a 5.56.




7.62x39 makes small (but deep) holes in living tissue. It even goes quite a ways before it tumbles. If it hits bone, the bone will fragment and become secondary projectiles, but otherwise 7.62x39 kinda sucks . . .

5.56, with the right ammo at close range, fragments and causes a much larger diameter wound (at a distance between 6" and 9" of penetration). Basically, a 2.5" to 3" diameter wound vs. a 0.3" diameter wound.

If the 5.56 doesn't fragment, then it is even less effective than 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:24:12 AM EDT
"One guy described it as like watching the 'Night of the Living Dead,' " corpsman Peter Melady said. "People who should have been dead were still alive."

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:04:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 10:05:43 AM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.



One guy took quite a few 7.62s and kept going.

PS the rangers were using full size A2's.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:45:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 10:46:10 AM EDT by Rockdoc]
During a Gunsite Carbine class, Pat Rogers related his personal experiences in Vietnam using the M-14 at close (<50 yd) range. Mr. Charles was not always impressed with 7.62 NATO. Pat then transitioned into a discussion of failure drills.

Drugs, armor, motivation, zombie shit - it doesn't matter what the reason, all man-portable arms have been shown to sometimes fail to stop an opponent.
If at first you don't succeed, shoot the f*&ker again, and again, and again.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:50:36 AM EDT
"'My guys put five [machine gun] rounds into a guy who just stood there and took it and then took off running," he said."

Normally when term "machinegun rounds" is used they are refering to M240Gs, 7.62 NATO rounds.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:36:30 AM EDT
I think you really have to realise something. The 5.56 will NOT fragment when shot from the M4 configuration!! It's velocity is just too slow. so basically you need to make multiple hits to make a difference anyway. as to the 7.62 well we survive from armor and medicine and the 7.62 FMJ was meant for maxium wounding potential. Both sides are in a world of shit when it comes to small arms. The Insurgetns and the US forces would both be better of using SP and "dum-dum" ammunition. since we don't want wounded insurgents we want them dead, and they want to get the US body count up so we'll run away. Since it is not a 'real' war there is no Hague convention to violate anyway. Besides we never signed that anyway right?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:51:03 AM EDT
Doin rails for Allah...

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:59:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I think you really have to realise something. The 5.56 will NOT fragment when shot from the M4 configuration!! It's velocity is just too slow.




Wrong!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:00:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.



There was an account of a tango taking hits from an M60 (7.62 NATO) and still moving. Sorry 7.62 is not a wonder boolit.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:00:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
The Rangers in Mogadishu described the same thing, ascribed it to Qat. I think it was 5.56 out of an M4 more than anything else.

7.62 out of M-14's put the on their ass with one shot, according to accounts in that bok, while old men and women took multiple hits from M4's without being too fazed.



You might consider re-reading Blackhawk Down and take notes

There were only 2 negative references to the 5.56 (both made by the same person) in the entire book. There were MANY examples of 7.62 NOT stopping people....
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:04:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:05:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I think you really have to realise something. The 5.56 will NOT fragment when shot from the M4 configuration!! It's velocity is just too slow.



False.

The M-4 reduces the range where fragmentation occurs (to 50 m, IIRC). But fragmentation still occurs (with proper ammo, of course). In fact, within 5 m or so, I believe that fragmentation still occurs with 10.5" barrels.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:52:43 PM EDT
Sorry dudes, but my info tells otherwise. home.snafu.de/l.moeller/wund5.jpg
As you can see you need to get at least 2555 FPS to get at least a little fragmentation. And this is not much compared to what you're supposed to get with a 20" barrel (3205 fps). cutting down the barrel only makes things worse, especially at ranges exceeding 50 meters.
This is a major oversight IMHO of the US armed forces in Iraq.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 1:02:59 PM EDT
amphetamines used in combat? what a shock
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 5:07:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Sorry dudes, but my info tells otherwise. home.snafu.de/l.moeller/wund5.jpg
As you can see you need to get at least 2555 FPS to get at least a little fragmentation.



T-stox - instead of looking at pictures, did you actually read Dr Facklers paper (the one this photo goes to)? I'm guessing by your post either you didn't read it or you didn't comprehend it.

Do you know the MV of M855 from a 14.5" barrel? Do you know what he projectile's velocity is at 50M? (in both cases it's higher than 2500fps).
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