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Posted: 10/14/2004 2:52:06 PM EST
I just downloaded and watch "Fahrenhype 911" and I think it is one of the best made documentaries that I have seen in a while. It has prompted me to even go out and buy it :)

Anyways, I recommend to it everyone that wishes to know the truth about terrorism, liberalism, and Michael Moore's treachery.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 2:53:28 PM EST
Yes, you should go buy since you stole it.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:01:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Breycor:
Yes, you should go buy since you stole it.





Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:06:29 PM EST
Walmart, $10, you all have no excuses...


Excellent movie!

- BG
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:10:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:10:40 PM EST by GrH_Revelation]

Originally Posted By Breycor:
Yes, you should go buy since you stole it.




Stole it... no more than my ISP has "stolen" the Internet from ME!!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:12:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:15:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:

Originally Posted By Breycor:
Yes, you should go buy since you stole it.




Stole it... no more than my ISP has "stolen" the Internet from ME!!



You really need to get a clue.



LoL.. not even going to unload
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:17:04 PM EST
You are right though...great documentary. Probably the best I've ever seen, heck I'm gonna watch it again.

BTW..go buy it!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:17:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:

Originally Posted By Breycor:
Yes, you should go buy since you stole it.




Stole it... no more than my ISP has "stolen" the Internet from ME!!



You're babbling again.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:17:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:23:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:23:43 PM EST by GrH_Revelation]
There is an innumerable ammount of laws that people break on a day to day basis, however, they are not enforced because they are frivolous. Now, I don't mean to make the supposition that copyright laws are frivolous and without merit, but I do intend to say that an individual shouldn't make a documentary and become frustrated when their message is being spread. What is a documentary? A documentary, well:

doc·u·men·ta·ries

A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.

I believe it is counter-productive and stupid when an individual that creates a documentary in hopes of stimulating change and not neccessarily to promote a profit becomes angry because someone is distributing their message. I may have broken the law, but that doesn't make the principle stupid.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:27:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:28:40 PM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:27:47 PM EST
Well, certain people care more about getting the message out than profit and do not mind people sharing as long as the sharers are not profiting. The record industry has created greed in this arena. hell, even that fat ass michael moore allows his propaganda to propagate freely.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:28:49 PM EST
Dig Dug, he said he was going to buy a copy. You never listen to a song on the radio before you buy the album?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:30:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:32:31 PM EST
To DigDug:

Yea, you're so right... the individuals that made "Fahrenhype 911" are in the "Poor House". Ya know, individuals like: Alan Peterson, Michael Fox, Steve Haugen David Sapp, Jeff Hays, Lee Troxler, Dick Morris, Zell Miller, Ed Koch, Ron Silver, etc. These are the guys on the brink of bankruptcy and financial failure. Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:32:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:36:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:37:17 PM EST by TacticalMan]

Originally Posted By DigDug:


Unload all you want. You have broken copyright laws. Just admit it and move on.



Copying is legal for personal use.
I'll bet you think libraries are pirate dens, don't you?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:36:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
To DigDug:

Yea, you're so right... the individuals that made "Fahrenhype 911" are in the "Poor House". Ya know, individuals like: Alan Peterson, Michael Fox, Steve Haugen David Sapp, Jeff Hays, Lee Troxler, Dick Morris, Zell Miller, Ed Koch, Ron Silver, etc. These are the guys on the brink of bankruptcy and financial failure. Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.



So.. we're into class warfare, are we?

Taking from the rich is ok... because they're rich. Sure you're not a Democrat after all?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:41:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Unload all you want. You have broken copyright laws. Just admit it and move on.



Copying is legal for personal use.
I'll bet you think libraries are pirate dens, do't you?



Bad analogy.

Libraries have to purchase each copy of whatever media they offer. They do so not to reproduce and redistribute them freely, nor can multiple people use them simultaneously. There is no 'multiplying' the utility of each book they have.

And 'personal use' only applies once you have purchased the media. And that 'use' applies only to you.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:41:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Stormtrooper:
Dig Dug, he said he was going to buy a copy. You never listen to a song on the radio before you buy the album?



Radio isn't even free. The radio station has to pay a fee to play every song.

This is a sore point with me because I see too many people downloading crap off the net and not paying for other people's work. It's bullshit. If you do it you are a thief. Plain and simple.



Good point, now... please, sir. Please surrender your land because it was "stole" by Anglos from the Native Americans. Surrender your Windows OS because the Windows GUI was "stole" from Macintosh during the "Prometheus Project". Give up your car's independent suspension because it was "stole" by American manufacturers from the Volks-Wagon corporation. And the list goes on...

I didn't argue that what I was doing was legal, however, I do propose that it's absurd to believe that a documentary's scope is just to make money. They want to spread their message and I am. Besides, I am also making people money: everytime someone "pirates" a product, there is another programmer that is being paid to encrypt/protect that product from being stolen. I'm not saying I'm right about "stealing" the DVD, but I do think it dumb for people to bitch about "stealing" a documentary. I think it is analogous to "stealing" public water.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:43:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
To DigDug:

Yea, you're so right... the individuals that made "Fahrenhype 911" are in the "Poor House". Ya know, individuals like: Alan Peterson, Michael Fox, Steve Haugen David Sapp, Jeff Hays, Lee Troxler, Dick Morris, Zell Miller, Ed Koch, Ron Silver, etc. These are the guys on the brink of bankruptcy and financial failure. Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.



So.. we're into class warfare, are we?

Taking from the rich is ok... because they're rich. Sure you're not a Democrat after all?



If you didn't notice before, DigDug made his argument based on pragmatics, not principle. I was simply responding in the same fashion: the pragmatics of the individuals ability to still sustain themselves. "Wouldn't it be great if the documentary makers could eat and pay their bills while making their films? That way they can do things other people will like and pay their rent."
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:43:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:

Originally Posted By DigDug:


Unload all you want. You have broken copyright laws. Just admit it and move on.



Copying is legal for personal use.
I'll bet you think libraries are pirate dens, don't you?



So... as long as its for personal use, we don't have to pay for anything?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:46:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:48:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:

They want to spread their message and I am. Besides, I am also making people money: everytime someone "pirates" a product, there is another programmer that is being paid to encrypt/protect that product from being stolen.





Are you on crack? This is like a bank robber justfying his crime because it leads to the employment of more police.



I'm not saying I'm right about "stealing" the DVD, but I do think it dumb for people to bitch about "stealing" a documentary. I think it is analogous to "stealing" public water.



Public water exists naturally. DVD's and their content are man-made. They do not fall from the sky.

Always reward those who produce things you find valuable. That ensures you'll be able to get what you want. In this case, buying the DVD is the right thing to do in every respect. AND it gets an important message validated in the best way possible. IT MAKES MONEY.

Expand the market for Leftist/Moore-debunking books and DVDs and people will make more of them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:52:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:55:17 PM EST by the]

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:

If you didn't notice before, DigDug made his argument based on pragmatics, not principle. I was simply responding in the same fashion: the pragmatics of the individuals ability to still sustain themselves. "Wouldn't it be great if the documentary makers could eat and pay their bills while making their films? That way they can do things other people will like and pay their rent."



And I'm trying to show you that he maneuvered you into justifying theft based on 'pragmatics' - the exact same way liberals advance socialism.

You want 'pragmatism?' I know lots of people who lose work when DVD's and software are pirated. 'Little people' - the ones working to get this stuff out.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:53:04 PM EST
You're so right, public water does exist naturally. And there was never an individual that had to find a good water source, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that had to make the first well, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that purified the water, it's just always there. Yep, water... IT'S EVERYWHERE!

Besides, you find the statistics of how badly the industry has been damaged... and then I will comply to your ideas on the loss of profit.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:55:14 PM EST
Yea, I bet you do. You know TONS of individuals that are SOL because some guy in his room just downloaded their product and is keeping it all for himself. "Sweet Jesus, I'm out of business!"

NOTE: Stop spouting off about guilt by association and your "Oh... gee willy... He's a commie... GET HIM!"... McCarthyism
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:56:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:57:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
$10... for Christ's sake... a box of ammo!




plus the cost of gas to get there which is not cheap nowadays
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:59:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Reminds me of a friend of mine... he is a musician and is ready to kill anybody who downloads music from places like Kazaa or whatever those free sites are because the musicians don't get paid a royalty for their work. Yet in his studio he is running like $100,000 in specialized editing software... all of which is pirated.




Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:04:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
Yea, I bet you do. You know TONS of individuals that are SOL because some guy in his room just downloaded their product and is keeping it all for himself. "Sweet Jesus, I'm out of business!"



Multiply "some guy" by many, many thousands.

How about a little experiment? Send a dollar to every member of this board. It's just a dollar, after all.



NOTE: Stop spouting off about guilt by association and your "Oh... gee willy... He's a commie... GET HIM!"... McCarthyism



A freelance socialist is still a socialist. You're a thief. Man up and admit it. Or STFU.

I work in the industry that makes this stuff. You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I know lots of people that lose work when profits sag. Piracy contributes to this.

Oh, and by the way, McCarthy was right. I bought a few books that made that case rather clearly. Good thing those authors had the incentive to write them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:10:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
You're so right, public water does exist naturally. And there was never an individual that had to find a good water source, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that had to make the first well, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that purified the water, it's just always there. Yep, water... IT'S EVERYWHERE!



And so you would have us think that those who did these thing should not be paid for doing them, right? If someone's efforts to make something useful are to be devalued.. that stands to 'reason' no?


Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:12:16 PM EST
First of all, you have no idea the industry that I work in. One of my jobs is editing, videotaping, and marketing weddings with my employer. We know that people pirate our work, this is why we invest in dvd crack-blockers and other codecs to prevent this.

Second of all, you misunderstood my statement: "some guy in his room just downloaded their product and is keeping it all for himself". If I downloaded the file from one source and then didn't distribute it, and this was the method that everyone practiced, their would only be one individual distributing the file around: the source.

Now, if I downloaded it... put it on a P2P network... and distributed it... that would be different.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:14:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
You're so right, public water does exist naturally. And there was never an individual that had to find a good water source, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that had to make the first well, it just appeared. And there was never an individual that purified the water, it's just always there. Yep, water... IT'S EVERYWHERE!



And so you would have us think that those who did these thing should not be paid for doing them, right? If someone's efforts to make something useful are to be devalued.. that stands to 'reason' no?





Are you paying for it now? You are paying your providers through taxes, but you aren't paying the original individual. And yes, I'm sure they were compensated, but he was only compensated once... you aren't paying him now.

What if some person BOUGHT a product and then freely distributed it... they compensated the producer once... but they are distributing it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:23:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
Are you paying for it now? You are paying your providers through taxes, but you aren't paying the original individual. And yes, I'm sure they were compensated, but he was only compensated once... you aren't paying him now.



This is completely, and totally, nonsensical.



What if some person BOUGHT a product and then freely distributed it... they compensated the producer once... but they are distributing it.



Then they are, and please follow along: illegally multiplying the utility of that media. In so doing, they are making copies, that, when used by others, replace sales. It's easy to understand.

They are 'competing,' in a sense, with the person who is entitled to sell that product (since they created it), but offering it at a 'cost' of ZERO.

There is no legitimate defense of that practice.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:25:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:26:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 4:27:40 PM EST by GrH_Revelation]
Well, you have fabricated an argument. However, why is it that when a computer game is released, if the source code is manually re-created by a 3rd party, then it is not illegal?

Crack-Servers operate on this premise.

And, yes, I agree that the original "pirated" distributor broke the law, but you said "multiply that by 1,000" in reference to one individual downloading a file. I repeat, show me the statistics that the media industry has taken a significant loss of profit that can be conclusively linked to "pirated" media and I will concur with your ideas on "pirating" any media.

NOTE: legitimacy is not an absolute, it is merely a majority.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:30:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:

Second of all, you misunderstood my statement: "some guy in his room just downloaded their product and is keeping it all for himself". If I downloaded the file from one source and then didn't distribute it, and this was the method that everyone practiced, their would only be one individual distributing the file around: the source.

Now, if I downloaded it... put it on a P2P network... and distributed it... that would be different.



That's like argung because a fire isn't spreading rapidly, nothing's burning. Yes, putting it up on a P2P network exacerbates the problem. But what really fixes it is having people realize it's not right to download in the first place. And if there was only one person hosting a pirated item, great - they'd be easy to shut down. But your point in mentioning that eludes me.

Again, it's the attitude that excuses the "not paying for it" that's the problem. It's unsound, economically and morally.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:30:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:35:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
NOTE: legitimacy is not an absolute, it is merely a majority.



GREEEEAAAATTTTTTT and tomorrow if the majority agrees that rape is ok... well its legitimate. Thanks for clarifying!



Do you doubt it? If a majority... nay.. a plurality of people decided that such attributes as dishonor, cowardice, greed, sloth, etc. were admirable.. it would be so. If tomorrow, a plurality decided that guns were bad for the world and they had sufficient power, it would be so.

It doesn't make it an Absolute Truth, but it does make it a reality.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:38:20 PM EST
No, sir, what is unsound is the inflation that goes into media these days. The cost of a cd for a mass producer, such as a record label, is less than one cent a piece. Yes, the artist and others take their share of the royalties, but don't argue that we are being justly charged. If the price of media was made appropriate, I think that sales an increase in sales would compensate for the drop in price to the consumer.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:44:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
Well, you have fabricated an argument. However, why is it that when a computer game is released, if the source code is manually re-created by a 3rd party, then it is not illegal?



Manually recreate source code? I am familiar with coding, as I write software. Please explain what you mean.



And, yes, I agree that the original "pirated" distributor broke the law, but you said "multiply that by 1,000" in reference to one individual downloading a file. I repeat, show me the statistics that the media industry has taken a significant loss of profit that can be conclusively linked to "pirated" media and I will concur with your ideas on "pirating" any media.



I don't need to. Each act of downloading is also illegal. I'd imagine you have many .mp3's on your computer. Please total the value of these - the ones not from CD's you purchased. Then ask yourself why you have them.

But you have, once again, legitimized theft from those who do not necessarily "feel the pain" as you perceive it. Why you keep doing this, I can't guess. The allure of free stuff is strong, apparently. And you probably point fingers at liberals. At least they wait for a majority vote.

Again, your justification is inherently socialist, ie: it is proper to take from those who have much because they might not always notice it. You can keep to this argument all you like, but you forfeit the right to whine as your taxes go up to do the same for others, at your expense.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:49:05 PM EST
Excuse me.. what was that.. Yes, I am familiar with the Red Scare...

Take your finger pointing elsewhere.. you don't justify your point by making accusations.

Recreating the source code: Manually copying the code used to create a certain game or server and then implementing it in your own program, basically recreating the product you are copying. However, you are using your own engine... and it is, as of now, considered legal.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:51:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 4:52:20 PM EST by the]

Originally Posted By GrH_Revelation:
No, sir, what is unsound is the inflation that goes into media these days. The cost of a cd for a mass producer, such as a record label, is less than one cent a piece. Yes, the artist and others take their share of the royalties, but don't argue that we are being justly charged. If the price of media was made appropriate, I think that sales an increase in sales would compensate for the drop in price to the consumer.



Unless you are a party to the contracts under which these products are created and marketed, you simply have no standing to complain. You have even less standing to illegally interpose yourself in these contracts, which is what you do when you engage in piracy.

AGAIN, you have invoked the arguments of socialists. Here, you have used what is called "objective value theory" to economists. Study it, learn why it fails, and you'll understand what I'm talking about much better. You'll see why my 'socialist' jabs are warranted.

You CAN get it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:53:10 PM EST
GO pay the $10 you cheap jerk
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:53:26 PM EST
You broke the law. Be a man. Take responsibility.

--------------------------------

Back on topic...
Walmarts a long ways from here. Where else can I buy it?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:53:59 PM EST
I just ordered mine. This guy deserves my money.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:54:10 PM EST
my whole complaint about the piracy issue is people try to justify it

Just admit your a pirate and move on.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:54:45 PM EST
Guys, STFU and go get/watch/distribute the video!!!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:55:25 PM EST
I have no grounds for concerning myself with the prices of the products that I purchase? I have just as much grounds for arguing that prices are too high as people complain about gas, health care, etc.

Socialism.. wow... give up on it...

There are bigger problems than piracy... ever heard about Social Security?

Go bark up some other caste systems tree.
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