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Posted: 12/6/2015 11:40:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2015 12:52:41 AM EST by RJeff21]
I'm not sure if this specific document has been posted in GD yet, but I figured it needs to be disseminated as widely as possible.

All I have to say is Fuck Eotech, especially their cocksucker of a president. Detailed in here are, amongst other things, internal Eotech emails where employees voice grave concerns about how poorly their products perform (nearly all of them) in a wide range of environments and how much they are concerned about the potential loss of US troops' lives due to these defects. These were all swept under the rug by the president of Eotech for nearly a decade.

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/United-States-v.-L-3-Communications-Eotech-Inc.-et-al.pdf

It's kind of a long read, but here are some excerpts (you really should read the whole thing):

61. EOTech quickly confirmed the Norwegians’ findings. On February 2, 2007, the CTO emailed a memo explaining the defect to other EOTech employees and suggested that it be forwarded to the Norwegians. The CTO’s memo admitted that “[w]e had never looked at the sight performance at very low temperature. We had assumed the sight performed about the same at 20 degrees C ± 40 degrees C. We were quite surprised by how poorly the sight performed at -20 degrees C.” The CTO’s memo also admitted that the sight demonstrated “a completely unacceptable performance.”

62. In replying to the CTO, one sales employee asked, “do we really want to admit that we never tested the HWS at cold temperature when we list on the published specs that it operates to -40 C? . . . Also, temperatures in Afghanistan are very, very cold in the winter. We should say that our HWS performs very well (as a 1x) in both temperature extremes.” Another sales employee responded that “[s]tating that we never did low temperature testing would not make me feel comfortable. It begs the question [] what else have we not tested.
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71. By early 2007, Defendants thus realized that every product they had shipped to Crane and other customers failed to perform in accordance with the product’s specifications concerning cold temperature operation. If the sight was taken even to moderately cold temperatures, ranging from 32 degrees to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the user’s aim would be affected by error ranging from 12 MOA to more than 20 MOA, i.e., more than 20 inches per 100 yards.
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106. In June of 2009, EOTech sent a sample of newly-manufactured sights to an independent testing laboratory to determine whether the seal on the sight was an effective barrier against ambient air and moisture. The laboratory checked for “gross leaks” (typically indicating that the seal can be penetrated by a liquid) by immersing the sights in fluid and checking for bubbles emanating from the seal area. The laboratory reported to Defendants that “[t]he results of the gross leak testing revealed all four devices failed hermetic testing. . . . Bubbles were evident from the devices at various locations. . . .” The laboratory identified three to four leak paths on each sight.

107. In August of 2009, the same laboratory conducted an internal vapor analysis on six sights, specifically those in use by the U.S. Special Operations Command operators, to determine whether the sights leaked the nitrogen gas that was injected into the sights to keep out moisture. The laboratory concluded that all of the sights in the sample leaked nitrogen. When EOTech then asked the laboratory to conduct additional testing to assess the rate and the path of the leaks, the laboratory reported that it was unable to complete the testing because the “[l]eak rate was greater than the instruments’ detection limit.”

108. An EOTech test engineer subsequently prepared a single-page summary of the results, reporting that two “Significant Findings” of the testing were that “[n]itrogen & moisture content reach[] near ambient levels within a 1 month period” and that the use of a “[d]essicant [sic] provides a significant improvement to moisture content but only for a short period of time (< 1 month).” According to a former EOTech optics engineer, all of the senior managers were aware of the results, including Mangano.

109. In other words, by 2009, EOTech knew that ambient air, with its relative humidity, filled the optical cavity almost immediately. Although the damaging test results pertained to the very units being shipped to Crane, EOTech did not disclose them.
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I actually used to be a proponent of Eotech sights, having owned three different 553's, two EXPS3-0's and one XPS2-0. After two of them experienced the "dim reticle" issue, I ditched them all except for the XPS (my girlfriend loves it on her rifle), but after reading this that one will be going bye-bye as well.

FWIW, according to this thread in the optics forum, Eotech is refunding the purchase price for any Eotech you own via RMA which appears to be the first ethical action the company has taken in a long time.

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I haven't really kept too up to date on this issue and it pissed me off reading this. I do know this, there is no way anyone can defend Eotech at this point after reading this.

ETA: Here's how you go about getting a refund:

Originally Posted By BMWBIKR:
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Is there a link with anything official from Eotech including directions for the return yet?
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/685320_Eotech_refunding_civilian_owners___.html&page=6#i7034522

Originally Posted By 021411:
From my post earlier today..


Instructions to those who are having difficulty figuring out how to start the return process.

Go to eotech's main website and up at the top is the Service & Support tab right near the social media links. Click on that and you'll see an option for Return Authorization Request Form. Click on that.
Once the form is open, fill it in with your information and what it is requesting. The build date is on a sticker on the bottom of the sight and the serial number should be near by. If it's a newer sight it should be on the UID sticker. In the Description of Failure box, put a brief sentence that would like a product refund and also the price you paid for your particular item. They don't need a long winded response on how you are upset.
In the Comments box below that I basically reiterated what I typed again and then submit it. You can print out the form but you won't need it. You'll just need the approval email from Mike Kroll and include that in the package. Be patient. I really think it's a one man show. He's responding to each request and it may take time now. As of now no proof of purchase is required.

HTH anyone trying to figure it out.
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Eotech's Website
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:41:51 PM EST
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:44:25 PM EST
I love eotech and defended them before.....


Not anymore. Fuck them.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:46:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:43:52 AM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NorthBridge:
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...
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You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that were going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:50:01 PM EST
Strong AVI to post content ratio
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:51:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By madbarbarian87:
I love eotech and defended them before.....


Not anymore. Fuck them.
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I did the same. Not anymore. There is no company in the gun industry more deserving of the Arfcom "Fuck insert company name here" label than Eotech.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:54:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By NorthBridge:
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.


Probably didn't even look at the thread. Just upping his post count
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:55:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
FWIW, according to this thread in the optics forum, Eotech is refunding the purchase price for any Eotech you own via RMA which appears to be the first ethical action the company has taken in a long time.
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So if I RMA'd my EXPS 3-2 in tan to them... what would be clone correct??
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:56:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By NorthBridge:
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.


I'm with OP.

Dirty move by EO
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:56:16 PM EST
Its a dupe X 3-4.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:57:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By NorthBridge:
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way?

You drew the line here? OK..
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:58:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Effenpig:


Probably didn't even look at the thread. Just upping his post count
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Effenpig:
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By NorthBridge:
I'm looking everywhere for my fucks to give. Still haven't found any...


You don't "give any fucks" that they knowingly provided products with severe defects to troops that we're going into harms way? Their employees readily acknowledged these concerns, yet they were swept under the rug by their president for nearly a decade.

Their president even fired the co-founder of the company who appeared to be constantly pressuring him to disclose these issues to Crane, presumably because of those actions.


Probably didn't even look at the thread. Just upping his post count

Yeah. You can tell by my post history that's exactly how I roll.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:58:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/6/2015 11:59:59 PM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Meh, none of those threads appeared to really detail the document I posted in the OP which is pretty damning. From what I'm seeing in the court filing, the issues with Eotech products will also effect even normal civilian end users who don't really subject their weapons to extreme conditions/environments.

Every single one of their tests saw nearly every sight they produce fail the "moisture seal test" even when they were only subjected to sitting in a box.

I can't believe with all the chants of "Fuck Troy" here, we don't see a peep about Eotech who has been knowingly defrauding/selling defective products to the consumer market (as well as their government customers) for nearly a decade.

Fuck Eotech.
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:58:59 PM EST
We're doing this topic again?
Link Posted: 12/6/2015 11:59:26 PM EST
I've always preferred Aimpoint to Eotech. Even more so now.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:00:02 AM EST
Mine works flawlessly....
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:00:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:00:58 AM EST by rogueboss]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


Meh, none of those threads appeared to really detail the document I posted in the OP which is pretty damning. From what I'm seeing in the court filing, the issues with Eotech products will also effect even normal civilian end users who don't really subject their weapons to extreme conditions/environments.

Every single one of their tests saw nearly every sight they produce fail the "moisture seal test" even when they were only subjected to sitting in a box.

I can't believe with all the chants of "Fuck Troy" here, we don't see a peep about Eotech who has been knowingly defrauding/selling defective products to the consumer market (as well as their government customers) for nearly a decade.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


Meh, none of those threads appeared to really detail the document I posted in the OP which is pretty damning. From what I'm seeing in the court filing, the issues with Eotech products will also effect even normal civilian end users who don't really subject their weapons to extreme conditions/environments.

Every single one of their tests saw nearly every sight they produce fail the "moisture seal test" even when they were only subjected to sitting in a box.

I can't believe with all the chants of "Fuck Troy" here, we don't see a peep about Eotech who has been knowingly defrauding/selling defective products to the consumer market (as well as their government customers) for nearly a decade.


Different reasons for the hate. My eotech has been fine. Both on personally owned and patrol rifles. I don't hate my Dodge because their fenders used to rust
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:02:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rogueboss:
We're doing this topic again?
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Yep, deal with it. I haven't seen this court filing really examined in any of the other threads and its extremely damning of Eotech. Many people here may not be aware that Eotech is willing to refund them the purchase price of their defective optic and I think that information should be shared.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:04:51 AM EST
I ditched Eotech for Aimpoint a couple of years ago.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:07:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:10:35 AM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rogueboss:


Different reasons for the hate. My eotech has been fine. Both on personally owned and patrol rifles. I don't hate my Dodge because their fenders used to rust
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rogueboss:
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


Meh, none of those threads appeared to really detail the document I posted in the OP which is pretty damning. From what I'm seeing in the court filing, the issues with Eotech products will also effect even normal civilian end users who don't really subject their weapons to extreme conditions/environments.

Every single one of their tests saw nearly every sight they produce fail the "moisture seal test" even when they were only subjected to sitting in a box.

I can't believe with all the chants of "Fuck Troy" here, we don't see a peep about Eotech who has been knowingly defrauding/selling defective products to the consumer market (as well as their government customers) for nearly a decade.


Different reasons for the hate. My eotech has been fine. Both on personally owned and patrol rifles. I don't hate my Dodge because their fenders used to rust


Yes, what a great comparison, because we all know rusting fenders will cause your Dodge to veer off the road into a tree when you're driving down the highway (a lot more comparable of an outcome to the optic having its zero shift nearly 12-20 MOA when subjected to the extreme temperature of 30* F).

Just because your Eotech hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't. If you read the document, even Eotech acknowledges that nearly every product they manufactured over the past decade had a number of defects. Some of these defects may cause issues when the sight is subjected to the extreme condition of sitting in your safe.

If you don't care to read it, that's your choice. Doesn't mean that other people won't be interested in this information, though.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:09:10 AM EST
This is why I always buy Aimpoint
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:12:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rogueboss:
We're doing this topic again?
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says the guy who can't drop it in the larue thread!
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:12:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 7:55:52 AM EST by seejay3558]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By YoteSlayer69:
Mine works flawlessly....
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Mine too. Still debating sending it back....
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:13:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:14:40 AM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By YoteSlayer69:
Mine works flawlessly....
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Read the entire court filing. It may work fine now, but even Eotech acknowledges that there is almost a 100% chance it has multiple defects that will effect its operation.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:13:55 AM EST
FACT: If your optic dims out for a second, you are virtually guaranteed to drop dead on the spot.

I've seen a few broken ACOGs when I was in. It doesn't change my opinion on trijicon.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:14:30 AM EST
Please send me your defective EOTechs for disposal.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:15:15 AM EST
The problems have been out there, many of us were open about them, but the problems were swept under the rug by the fan boys as much as by the company.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:15:30 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rogueboss:
We're doing this topic again?
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It is bad on Eotech, but yeah. This.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:16:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:18:13 AM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SkilletsUSMC:
FACT: If your optic dims out for a second, you are virtually guaranteed to drop dead on the spot.

I've seen a few broken ACOGs when I was in. It doesn't change my opinion on trijicon.
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Once again, read the filing. This isn't about a few broken sights, this is about nearly every single optic they produced over the past decade being defective.

As to your first sentence, that is not the only known issue that Eotech acknowledges.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:16:34 AM EST
But but, DEVGRU?!?!
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:16:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
Please send me your defective EOTechs for disposal.
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Fuck that, send them back to Eotech and they'll cut you a check for MSRP.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:17:25 AM EST
But Nikon is still good right?
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:18:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCV:


says the guy who can't drop it in the larue thread!
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BCV:
Originally Posted By rogueboss:
We're doing this topic again?


says the guy who can't drop it in the larue thread!



Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:19:08 AM EST
When I purchase COTS equipment, it's up to me to verify that the products operates to its stated parameters. If it doesn't, my boss chews my ass, not the manufacturers.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:19:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SkilletsUSMC:
FACT: If your optic dims out for a second, you are virtually guaranteed to drop dead on the spot.

I've seen a few broken ACOGs when I was in. It doesn't change my opinion on trijicon.
View Quote

My unit had ACOGs, Aimpoints, and Eotechs. The only ones that failed habitually were the Eotechs. I had a personal 552 but sold it after seeing how terribly our issued optics did in real world use.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:21:08 AM EST
Mine have all worked fine. Very little to know zero movement, even as the temp changes.

That said, if you asked me if I believed it was still nitrogen purged, I would have said yes. I wouldn't say that anymore though.

Here is the good news - these will probably soon get blown out at absolutely ridiculous prices and be perfect for slug guns/.22s, and other rifles that I don't want to drop $800 for an Aimpoint on.

And, in the event that they actually improve/modify these, you might see the next great leap in RDS. Or they'll just continue to skate on making high dollar NVGs and thermals.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:22:27 AM EST
I bought mine 3yrs ago and thought I somehow had lost my shot. All summer I'm spot on, wood chucks at 200 yards no problem. Deer season in the cold ( not extreme cold) can't hit a thing! Added a set of 45 offsets...spot on shot again.....I wounded some deer and that sucks...but if my target was returning live fire...
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:22:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Vuong0916:
This is why I always buy Aimpoint
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Right, because years ago you knew what no one else did.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:24:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jeff93:


Right, because years ago you knew what no one else did.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jeff93:
Originally Posted By Vuong0916:
This is why I always buy Aimpoint


Right, because years ago you knew what no one else did.

It's really not new information, just now it's proven where before it was largely anecdotal.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:25:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:26:25 AM EST by CKxx]
Maybe this will settle the debate once and for all.









Best quote from the linked thread:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
For years SMEs and high volume firearms trainers have said there were problems with EoTechs including durability, battery life, controls/auto-off, zero shift
EoTech owners: I've used them and I've never had any problems, plus SOF uses them.

USSOCOM releases Safety of Use Message regarding issues found with EoTechs
EoTech owners: But I won't ever be in the same environments they failed in, plus SOF still uses them.

USSOCOM announces evaluation of replacement optics
EoTech owners: But I won't ever be in the same environments they failed in, SOF just likes spending money

FBI HRT selects the Aimpoint T-2 to replace EoTechs
EoTech owners: Aimpoint owners are just fan boys and the government likes spending our money

US Gov to sue L3 over fraud related to EoTechs
EoTech owners: Lalalalalalala
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Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:26:05 AM EST
I really wanted a 512 years ago. Glad I went with a Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:27:03 AM EST
Fuck Eotech for sweeping it under the rug, but did the military not test these things before buying a fuck ton of them and deploying them?
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:27:36 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Middlelength:
Mine have all worked fine. Very little to know zero movement, even as the temp changes.

That said, if you asked me if I believed it was still nitrogen purged, I would have said yes. I wouldn't say that anymore though.

Here is the good news - these will probably soon get blown out at absolutely ridiculous prices and be perfect for slug guns/.22s, and other rifles that I don't want to drop $800 for an Aimpoint on.

And, in the event that they actually improve/modify these, you might see the next great leap in RDS. Or they'll just continue to skate on making high dollar NVGs and thermals.
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Over the course of nearly a decade, they weren't able to find a fix for any of the issues. I'd be shocked if they were able to fix it now.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:28:28 AM EST
Wow.

We have some avid EOTech supporters on this site. Good folks too.

Wondering how this negligence will sway them.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:29:20 AM EST
Does this mean there will he a bunch of cheap used Eotechs popping up in the EE now?
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:30:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By seejay3558:
Does this mean there will he a bunch of cheap used Eotechs popping up in the EE now?
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Hopefully. I'll buy a few
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:30:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:

It's really not new information, just now it's proven where before it was largely anecdotal.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By Jeff93:
Originally Posted By Vuong0916:
This is why I always buy Aimpoint


Right, because years ago you knew what no one else did.

It's really not new information, just now it's proven where before it was largely anecdotal.


Yup. Aimpoint has always been the "rugged" optic.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:31:08 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By madmike66:
Fuck Eotech for sweeping it under the rug, but did the military not test these things before buying a fuck ton of them and deploying them?
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Apparently, with how the contract was worded, the testing was performed on the honor system and the DoD trusted that Eotech was performing these tests.

It is also detailed in the court filing that Eotech went as far as preparing special units for use in contract testing that stood a better chance of passing the tests. The processes they used to prepare these "test units" were not used to manufacture the actual products they used to fulfill the contracts.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:31:10 AM EST
I have an EOTEC, that i fried the board in by putting 12v instead of 1.5v batteries in a few years ago. wonder if i should even bother sending it back now.
Link Posted: 12/7/2015 12:31:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2015 12:33:52 AM EST by DuBri]
Can someone who knows more about to explain something to me? Is this a problem inherent to the general design of 'holosights' or is it just a QC issue or something that could be ironed out with better materials and expanded t&e etc.

In other words if eotech licensed the design to aimpoint could aimpoint make an eotech that was as reliable as its own product line.

Seeing as how their lack of reliability versus aimpoints has been pretty much public knowledge for years you'd think by now they would have found a solution if there was one.
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