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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:03:49 AM EDT
[#1]
Theres a reason my sites re hosted in Switzerland
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:09:33 AM EDT
[#2]
I wonder which datacenter. Hopefully not mine
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:15:44 AM EDT
[#3]
So the FBI stole servers that were not part of a search warrant?
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:17:24 AM EDT
[#4]
If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time?
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:20:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Lesson for the day: If your uptime is important, don't be a cheap ass.. spring for private hosting.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:21:12 AM EDT
[#6]
Well that's nice of the FBI. Maybe someday, they'll hire someone bright enough who understands that seizing the server is stupid, and a copy of the storage would be all they need for their little 'investigation'. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:21:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time? No. The only way any group would organize is with clear, persistent and highly visible violence at the hands of government literally in the streets (not gonna happen). In your scenario, people would sit around wondering what the hell was going on - and when nothing showed up on Fox News, Beck or Rush, they'd assume it was benign coincidence and go back to eating cereal and watching daytime TV waiting for the Bobs to "fix the glitch." 
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:22:04 AM EDT
[#8]
How big is web hosting in terms of our economy and how much will we lose because of crap like this?
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:25:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
How big is web hosting in terms of our economy and how much will we lose because of crap like this? Well a quality server goes for $100 or so easy, a large site on average $250+ and thats not for professionals which is a lot higher, so put simply its a lot of cash. Data centers use at least 1% of ll us electricity
Quoted:
Lesson for the day: If your uptime is important, don't be a cheap ass.. spring for private hosting. Not true even if you rent out your own rack its still common for the FBI to run off with everything in the room. 2-4 weeks down time will kill any web business, the feds have seized domains despite the fact it was a Spanish site, hosting Spanish licensed content and ruled legal by Spanish courts 
ETA: 
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:34:31 AM EDT
[#10]
However, the agents took entire server racks, perhaps because they mistakenly thought that "one enclosure is = to one server,” he said in an e-mail. Best and the brightest, I see. Boy do I feel safe knowing that the FBI's cybercrime guys can't distinguish between one computer and a stack of computers. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:42:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How big is web hosting in terms of our economy and how much will we lose because of crap like this? Well a quality server goes for $100 or so easy, a large site on average $250+ and thats not for professionals which is a lot higher, so put simply its a lot of cash. Data centers use at least 1% of ll us electricity
Quoted:
Lesson for the day: If your uptime is important, don't be a cheap ass.. spring for private hosting. Not true even if you rent out your own rack its still common for the FBI to run off with everything in the room. 2-4 weeks down time will kill any web business, the feds have seized domains despite the fact it was a Spanish site, hosting Spanish licensed content and ruled legal by Spanish courts
ETA: Picture incoming WOW the whole room? That could be hundreds or servers or the whole cabinet? 
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:44:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Well that's nice of the FBI.
Maybe someday, they'll hire someone bright enough who understands that seizing the server is stupid, and a copy of the storage would be all they need for their little 'investigation'. They're bright enough. Doing what you propose would not forcibly terminate the activity, meaning that the suspect could continue to speak until a judge or jury said otherwise. As it is, the FBI is able to execute it's judgment on the suspect without judicial intervention. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:45:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How big is web hosting in terms of our economy and how much will we lose because of crap like this? Well a quality server goes for $100 or so easy, a large site on average $250+ and thats not for professionals which is a lot higher, so put simply its a lot of cash. Data centers use at least 1% of ll us electricity
Quoted:
Lesson for the day: If your uptime is important, don't be a cheap ass.. spring for private hosting. Not true even if you rent out your own rack its still common for the FBI to run off with everything in the room. 2-4 weeks down time will kill any web business, the feds have seized domains despite the fact it was a Spanish site, hosting Spanish licensed content and ruled legal by Spanish courts
ETA: Picture incoming WOW the whole room? That could be hundreds or servers or the whole cabinet?
you think they care, they get paid over time when they fuck up 
I know guys who have had several racks seized for one hosting package guy hosting a jailbait photo. They just seize everything and sort it out later usually
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:46:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
However, the agents took entire server racks, perhaps because they mistakenly thought that "one enclosure is = to one server,” he said in an e-mail.
Best and the brightest, I see. Boy do I feel safe knowing that the FBI's cybercrime guys can't distinguish between one computer and a stack of computers. Yes , I certainly feel safer now
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:47:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time? 
Can. You. Fucking. IMAGINE. the HORROR ?!?!!??!!?? |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:47:38 AM EDT
[#16]
It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:50:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites. Would you like to talk about our global diversity solution? We can host your site in our Dallas datacenter and if the FBI comes in and takes all of those servers the content will automatically switch over to our server in Hong Kong or London. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:52:11 AM EDT
[#18]
When the masses finally understand what the banks and the governments are doing to them, the whole internet will go down.....
Why do you think the pres wants that button? TXL |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:53:07 AM EDT
[#19]
This isn't the first, fifth, or 10th time the FBI has done this. At least this time they didn't tar tens of thousands of innocents with child porn or terrorism banners like the DHS does.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:53:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: However, the agents took entire server racks, perhaps because they mistakenly thought that "one enclosure is = to one server,” he said in an e-mail. Best and the brightest, I see. Boy do I feel safe knowing that the FBI's cybercrime guys can't distinguish between one computer and a stack of computers. Yes , I certainly feel safer now Then again, we do live in a world where shoestrings are machine guns, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 5:54:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites. They killed 84k sites a few months back
http://gizmodo.com/?_escaped_fragment_=5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation#!5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation ETA: For sites that may be dmca or politically incorrect I use Switzerland and Sweden. It's ashame I have to go overseas for true freedom of speech
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:24:40 AM EDT
[#22]
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on...
And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:27:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Theres a reason my sites re hosted in Switzerland There's a reason my sites are hosted in a building that has only one key. . .and that key is in my pocket. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:27:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Boy do I feel safe knowing that the FBI's cybercrime guys can't distinguish between one computer and a stack of computers. I'm sure they know the difference, but why care when there's no consequences for your actions. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:29:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... Most judges dont know how a normal computer works let alone a data center
And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. Happens a lot I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I wouldn't trust a fbi agent to seize a hd, and its possible to specify more but they dont want to botherI'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. By the time it works its way through all the legal hoops is worth like $100 
Quoted:
Quoted:
Theres a reason my sites re hosted in Switzerland There's a reason my sites are hosted in a building that has only one key. . .and that key is in my pocket. I like my dog and i dont operate a business online so its not affordable
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:31:20 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time? Absolutely. Thousands of ARFCOMMERS would flee their mothers basements and roam the streets with airsoft rifles pissing and moaning all butthurt and shit.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:34:10 AM EDT
[#27]
Makes one think about looking into "Cloud" service and have multi-location/off-site backups.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:35:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. Not really. I can have a website where there are 100 webservers with no data on them because everything is really stored on a central Storage Area Network. This is why the police should go in and ask for the hardware. Not just kick down the door and take everything in sight. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:47:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Found out it was my datacenter
They took 3 blade centers. All my stuff is still there though...  -Foxxz |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:52:01 AM EDT
[#30]
Happens all the time , thus why I'm looking at hosting outside of the US.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:54:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. It gets even more fun when you're dealing with modern servers, the modern trend is towards hosting multiple servers on one chassis. I'm currently building out two IBM Power7 770's, each (currently) has 24 processing cores and close to 400G of RAM, by the time I'm done, I'll have roughly sixty individual operating systems running on the two of them, with the majority of those using virtualization for network and storage access. There is no specific disk you could pull to isolate one server, and if you don't know what you're doing, you could easily destroy a server image and have no way of recovering it. Btw, these two servers and the new storage arrays they're connected to cost over $2.5M, and that was with some significant discounts. Fortunately, they're located in corporate facilities, not shared hosting facilities. You have even more of an issue with virtual servers running on VMWare or Xen, there is even less physical mapping of virtual servers to physical servers. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 6:54:47 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Well that's nice of the FBI.
Maybe someday, they'll hire someone bright enough who understands that seizing the server is stupid, and a copy of the storage would be all they need for their little 'investigation'. It depends on what sort of data they're going after. Getting forensic data out of server farms and clusters can be somewhat complicated. Business impact is supposed to be factored in as a part of the decision on how evidence is collected because if you disrupt a business without legit cause you can generate a lawsuit. Uncle Sugar has deep pockets and probably doesn't care much about lawsuits. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:00:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Found out it was my datacenter They took 3 blade centers. All my stuff is still there though... -Foxxz What DC was it? I have stuff at Equinix over in Ashburn...seizures happen several times a year there. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:00:15 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time?
Can. You. Fucking. IMAGINE. the HORROR ?!?!!??!!?? Most of arfcom will be running around in circles yelling wtf, it's fo time, and oh teh noes when the site is shut down for the move. I'm heading for the roof now. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:04:35 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: The fun part is the US is asking other countries to extradite foreign citizens to charge them for US law, even though the person did not violate their own countries laws. Quoted: It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites. They killed 84k sites a few months back http://gizmodo.com/?_escaped_fragment_=5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation#!5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation ETA: For sites that may be dmca or politically incorrect I use Switzerland and Sweden. It's ashame I have to go overseas for true freedom of speech Or when ICE seizes domains that are not hosted in the US. Granted the majority of them were back up under a new domain within 24 hours, but it is still the arm of the US government doing hostile takeovers of foreign hosted websites. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:09:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The fun part is the US is asking other countries to extradite foreign citizens to charge them for US law, even though the person did not violate their own countries laws.
Quoted:
It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites. They killed 84k sites a few months back
http://gizmodo.com/?_escaped_fragment_=5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation#!5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation ETA: For sites that may be dmca or politically incorrect I use Switzerland and Sweden. It's ashame I have to go overseas for true freedom of speech Or when ICE seizes domains that are not hosted in the US. Granted the majority of them were back up under a new domain within 24 hours, but it is still the arm of the US government doing hostile takeovers of foreign hosted websites. And violating the processes for an appeal. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:12:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. This is what rubs me the wrong way. With all the money that the Federal Government has, with all the research that they themselves have done in computing, and given the fact that they practically invented the internet (sorry, Al Gore), there's really no excuse to not have "computer guys" on cases that have to do with, surprise, computers. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:14:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... And/or the guys sent by the FBI (a few agents and a bunch of contractors) aren't necessarily computer guys and take all that they can get becasue that's what the warrant says or that they don't know any better. I suppose if you write a warrant that says seize the server with website X information stored on it could you simply pull that server or would you have to do more? Could you safely assume that the HD in that one server is the only one with website X's info on it? I'm not a computer guy so I'm just taking a stab in the dark. Of course in the .gov's case they love forfeiture assets so maybe they just like to sell the stuff later. Not really. I can have a website where there are 100 webservers with no data on them because everything is really stored on a central Storage Area Network. This is why the police should go in and ask for the hardware. Not just kick down the door and take everything in sight. And when civilized people execute warrants, that is how it's done. If you're looking for a particular gun or type of gun, it costs nothing to say "We'd rather not make a mess. Where are the rifles?" If you are misdirected, you can tear things up then, if it's necessary. I have handed a warrant to the custodian of the premises and said "Please show us where these are," and obtained everything listed on the warrant. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:15:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Happens all the time , thus why I'm looking at hosting outside of the US. It is horrifying to contemplate an American looking overseas to secure his property from the government. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:16:52 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: Found out it was my datacenter They took 3 blade centers. All my stuff is still there though... -Foxxz What DC was it? I have stuff at Equinix over in Ashburn...seizures happen several times a year there. Coresite in Reston |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:18:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Happens all the time , thus why I'm looking at hosting outside of the US. It is horrifying to contemplate an American looking overseas to secure his property from the government. It's only surprising if you believe in exceptionalism. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:19:07 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... Or they're just lazy and don't feel like actually reading and understanding the affidavits or asking any questions before they sign the warrant. That would be far more likely. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:20:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... Or they're just lazy and don't feel like actually reading and understanding the affidavits or asking any questions before they sign the warrant. That would be far more likely. When the word "computer" or "digital" is mentioned a lot of eyes glaze over and ears become wooden. People just don't want to fool with the details. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:21:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Makes one think about looking into "Cloud" service and have multi-location/off-site backups. That Wikileaks fellow has that down pretty well. Pretty much thumbs his nose at authorities who threaten to seize this or that, as it will not stop him. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:23:54 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Well that's nice of the FBI.
Maybe someday, they'll hire someone bright enough who understands that seizing the server is stupid, and a copy of the storage would be all they need for their little 'investigation'. I'm sure they know that. But why not do as much harm to whoever you are investigating while gathering evidence? Thats just good policing. I mean, its not like there were any dogs at the data center they could shoot
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:29:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So what you're saying is that judges are writing search warrants that might be overly broad because they either don't know what they're authorizing or the FBI isn't 100% sure what server it is on... Or they're just lazy and don't feel like actually reading and understanding the affidavits or asking any questions before they sign the warrant. That would be far more likely. When the word "computer" or "digital" is mentioned a lot of eyes glaze over and ears become wooden. People just don't want to fool with the details. I guess that's what I'm getting at. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:30:59 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
If this were to happen to ARFCOM would that kick off FO time? Nah, we'd just rally at our alternate web meet place. 
Anybody know where that is? 
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:40:46 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Happens all the time , thus why I'm looking at hosting outside of the US. It is horrifying to contemplate an American looking overseas to secure his property from the government. I wish i could of stuck with a us company but couldn't. Shockergd what are you hosting ?
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Posted: 6/22/2011 7:51:36 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Outrageous. Attempting to violate and supersede other countries laws? Then again the US does this in regards to the "tax issue." The US is fucked and fucked up at the same time. Quoted: The fun part is the US is asking other countries to extradite foreign citizens to charge them for US law, even though the person did not violate their own countries laws. Quoted: It's happened before. One site is suspected of doing something naughty, so the FBI gets an over-broad search warrant and carts away the entire contents of the datacenter, taking down hundreds or thousands of innocent and uninvolved sites. They killed 84k sites a few months back http://gizmodo.com/?_escaped_fragment_=5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation#!5762161/feds-accidentally-shut-down-84000-websites-over-wrongful-kiddie-porn-accusation ETA: For sites that may be dmca or politically incorrect I use Switzerland and Sweden. It's ashame I have to go overseas for true freedom of speech Or when ICE seizes domains that are not hosted in the US. Granted the majority of them were back up under a new domain within 24 hours, but it is still the arm of the US government doing hostile takeovers of foreign hosted websites. |
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