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Posted: 12/7/2013 2:27:45 PM EST
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:45:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
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Meh with all the AA equipment around Serbia at the time they had to hit something.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:50:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
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You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.


Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:51:17 PM EST
It was hit by a SAM
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:52:42 PM EST
they flew the same route every night for four nights straight so really it wasn't luck... just point up and shoot. It was all in the after action report.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:52:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM
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In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:53:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM
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And your point?

stealth:

1) does not equal invisible, just means harder to detect
2) enough SAMs in the air and they can get lucky
3) the closer you are, the less stealthy you are.
4) sometimes shit happens.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:53:54 PM EST
Chinese supposedly helped the Serbs track it.

And that's supposedly one of the reasons why the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was hit with JDAMs.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:54:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sterling18:
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.


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Originally Posted By sterling18:
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.



This Did you not see the footage of the first night of the Gulf War? And that wasn't super heavy. Go look at some WWII footage of AA fire. Sometimes someone gets lucky.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:56:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:


And your point?

stealth:

1) does not equal invisible, just means harder to detect
2) enough SAMs in the air and they can get lucky
3) the closer you are, the less stealthy you are.
4) sometimes shit happens.
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM


And your point?

stealth:

1) does not equal invisible, just means harder to detect
2) enough SAMs in the air and they can get lucky
3) the closer you are, the less stealthy you are.
4) sometimes shit happens.



its a bit more complicated than that; the Serbs employed the SAMs in a non-standard way and it was not really a "wall of lead"
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:56:33 PM EST
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:58:14 PM EST
It is ironic that the chinese embassy blew the fuck up and the cia blamed some old maps. Hopefully the correct people got turned inside out.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:58:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Drakich:
Chinese supposedly helped the Serbs track it.

And that's supposedly one of the reasons why the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was hit with JDAMs.
View Quote

Yep. The Chinese embassy incident was an "accident."
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:58:50 PM EST
stealth is a media term. low observable =/= invisible. it isn't a cloaking device that malfunctioned. it was more like wearing fancy camouflage, but still skylining yourself.

poor decisions are not the technology's fault.

Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:58:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
View Quote

You know something the rest of us don't?
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 2:59:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By R0N:



its a bit more complicated than that; the Serbs employed the SAMs in a non-standard way and it was not really a "wall of lead"
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Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM


And your point?

stealth:

1) does not equal invisible, just means harder to detect
2) enough SAMs in the air and they can get lucky
3) the closer you are, the less stealthy you are.
4) sometimes shit happens.



its a bit more complicated than that; the Serbs employed the SAMs in a non-standard way and it was not really a "wall of lead"


see point 4.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:00:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Radian:
It is ironic that the chinese embassy blew the fuck up and the cia blamed some old maps. Hopefully the correct people got turned inside out.
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No irony it at all and the reason we now an expiration date on mapping data when we preplan targets.

Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:00:35 PM EST
Its been a long time since i read about that but basically didnt they just learn the routes the stealth jet was taking and make sure a SAM was occupying the same air space at the same time?

So instead of shooting at the plane they shot where they expected a plane to be.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:00:35 PM EST
They got lucky... I would not sweat the small stuff. Serbia got ass fucked badly
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:00:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.
View Quote


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:04:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:


see point 4.
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM


And your point?

stealth:

1) does not equal invisible, just means harder to detect
2) enough SAMs in the air and they can get lucky
3) the closer you are, the less stealthy you are.
4) sometimes shit happens.



its a bit more complicated than that; the Serbs employed the SAMs in a non-standard way and it was not really a "wall of lead"


see point 4.


It is not so much shit happens, its the enemy figured a way to negate low observation advantage.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:04:56 PM EST
Wasn't there some talk of them using cell phone towers or some such to track? Or was that BS.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:05:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Radian:


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.
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Originally Posted By Radian:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.



Measure vs countermeasures. It's interesting stuff to theorize.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:06:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sterling18:
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.


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Originally Posted By sterling18:
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.



This.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:09:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 3:16:08 PM EST by wessono]
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:


In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By R0N:
It was hit by a SAM


In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.


Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:12:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:15:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:16:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 3:17:44 PM EST by Tech-Com]
The F-117 is slow as hell too. If they knew where it was going to be a P-51D could shoot it down.

If they suspected where it was going to be then it would probably be pretty easy to tell the Sam to target anything it detects in a specified grid. The F-117 wouldn't have as much of a chance to get out of the way only going 400mph.

Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:20:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Drakich:
Chinese supposedly helped the Serbs track it.

And that's supposedly one of the reasons why the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was hit with JDAMs.
View Quote



Yeah but we were told that Chinese Embassy bombing was all an accident
This was also around the time China had our EWACs plane and crew. What I don't understand is why we didn't destroy the plane at the crash site. Much more at stake to attack an embassy.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:20:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:20:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Radian:


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.
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Originally Posted By Radian:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.


I would certainly hope no one talks about how we do SEAD in more detail.

Here is some detail...if it belongs to the Red ADA network, it's going to eat an ATACMS.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:31:22 PM EST
As I understand it, the stealth abilities of the aircraft didn't fail.


The bomb bay doors did. They stuck open and allowed more of a radar lock from a SAM.




Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:32:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:


I would certainly hope no one talks about how we do SEAD in more detail.

Here is some detail...if it belongs to the Red ADA network, it's going to eat an ATACMS.
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By Radian:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.


I would certainly hope no one talks about how we do SEAD in more detail.

Here is some detail...if it belongs to the Red ADA network, it's going to eat an ATACMS.


not so much the nuts and bolts of it just that we are exceptionally capable, no more detail than the air force mag I occasionally see in the shitter. Having met folks shot down over vietnam I would say the ability tiptoe into a tight spot is astounding.

I would say to some of our NSA hating folks that control telemetry doesn't gather itself.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:32:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 3:33:36 PM EST by MAJClem]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:


I would certainly hope no one talks about how we do SEAD in more detail.

Here is some detail...if it belongs to the Red ADA network, it's going to eat an ATACMS.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By Radian:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.


I would say literally billions if not tens of billions have been spent to wipe things like that sa300 guarding a syrian nuke reactor off the map. I would say right now the US has never been more capable of defeating a soviet model based air defense system. sure someone smarter will come along and explain this in more detail.


I would certainly hope no one talks about how we do SEAD in more detail.

Here is some detail...if it belongs to the Red ADA network, it's going to eat an ATACMS.





ATACMS are a good thing! I am , however, concerned about the advertised anti TBM capability of the newer S300 systems. The days of firing one missile and scratching a target might be over.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:43:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By x6ftundx:
they flew the same route every night for four nights straight so really it wasn't luck... just point up and shoot. It was all in the after action report.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:43:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sterling18:
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.


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Originally Posted By sterling18:
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
You can't expect to fly through a wall of lead and not get hit.



...it was an SA-3.



Another F-117 took minor damage from a near miss SA-3 also.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:44:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 3:45:53 PM EST by ElectricSheep556]
There's a brief analysis of the shootdown in "NATO's Air War for Kosovo: A Strategic and Operational Assessment" beginning on page 116 (Page 16 of this Chapter 6 PDF). Can't copy-paste due to formatting issues. That's a great read for anyone interested in the conflict in general. I've seen a better analysis of the shootdown but I can't remember the title.

It's surprising that an SA-3 is responsible, since they were the least survivable of Serbia's air defense assets.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:47:25 PM EST
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In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.
View Quote


This. That ADA colonel or whatever he was at the time knew his biz and was always leaning forward.

I read somewhere he tweeked his radars to unusually low (or maybe high?) freqs. And I think he had good intel from spotters along their borders and at Aviano.

Read that on the interwebz so it's true.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:50:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:
It's surprising that an SA-3 is responsible, since they were the least survivable of Serbia's air defense assets.
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It's the Indian, not the arrow.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:52:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Paris1:


This. That ADA colonel or whatever he was at the time knew his biz and was always leaning forward.

I read somewhere he tweeked his radars to unusually low (or maybe high?) freqs. And I think he had good intel from spotters along their borders and at Aviano.

Read that on the interwebz so it's true.
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Originally Posted By Paris1:


In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.


This. That ADA colonel or whatever he was at the time knew his biz and was always leaning forward.

I read somewhere he tweeked his radars to unusually low (or maybe high?) freqs. And I think he had good intel from spotters along their borders and at Aviano.

Read that on the interwebz so it's true.


Saw something similar about radar tweeking on this incident. The Chinese are working on this same thing for the B-2 as well.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:55:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Paris1:


This. That ADA colonel or whatever he was at the time knew his biz and was always leaning forward.

I read somewhere he tweeked his radars to unusually low (or maybe high?) freqs. And I think he had good intel from spotters along their borders and at Aviano.

Read that on the interwebz so it's true.
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Originally Posted By Paris1:


In Western militaries, studs go SOF, combat arms, and aviation.

In Sov Bloc militaries, studs go ADA.

Fly to stupid tactics again Tier 1 adversaries, expect fuck ups.


This. That ADA colonel or whatever he was at the time knew his biz and was always leaning forward.

I read somewhere he tweeked his radars to unusually low (or maybe high?) freqs. And I think he had good intel from spotters along their borders and at Aviano.

Read that on the interwebz so it's true.
ok, msnbc. that will be enough out of you
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 3:57:46 PM EST
lol my serb ex says that was the proudest moment for their country in recent history
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:07:28 PM EST
The Serbian anti-aircraft missile battery responsible for shooting down the stealth aircraft was the same one that downed the F-16 shown above. The unit’s senior commander was Col. Zoltan Dani (who is now operating a bakery).

Zoltan Dani and Dale Zelko, now retired from the US Air Force, have met and developed a friendship in recent years.
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Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:14:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/7/2013 4:15:55 PM EST by Mach]
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Originally Posted By FedDC:
In full scale war against a real air defense network, the US military could not do the vast majority of what it does. Soviet systems are very capable.
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bullshit.

Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:14:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By SamBoga:
I don't care about excuses, that was one embarrassing fuckup. Stealth my ass.
View Quote


You fail to understand some pretty elementary concepts. Go back to doing whatever it is that you '13ers do when you're not on this board.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:16:12 PM EST
According to my friends in the air force at the time it was a combination of pilot flying the same route and pilot ignoring missile warning system on the jet . He just sort of assumed they would miss and did no countermeasures.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:19:01 PM EST
Zoltan. Kind of a badass name. Is his first name Dani? Sometimes the Euros do that switcheroo thing.

Reminds me of Zoltar and Battle of the Planets. S/he wasn't so badass however.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:25:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:

It's surprising that an SA-3 is responsible, since they were the least survivable of Serbia's air defense assets.
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COL Zoltar...Zoltan had strict rules about how long his crews could turn on their radars plus they had to relocate X number of kilometers after doing so. Dude had it together.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:54:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By R0N:

It is not so much shit happens, its the enemy figured a way to negate low observation advantage.
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Mitigate is a much better word than negate here.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 4:55:20 PM EST
It was a similar mentality that got a lot of B-52s, Thuds, etc, shot down over Vietnam. The arrogance of command at the time felt like they could fly their "million dollar" aircraft with impunity over 3rd world air defenses, except it really wasn't "3rd world" defenses. Soviet based air defenses have always been quite capable, and when you combine repeated flight paths, predictable strike packages, and non-wavering bombing plans it makes shooting an aircraft down almost a given instead of a random occurrence.
Link Posted: 12/7/2013 5:01:11 PM EST
Golden BB. It happens.
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