Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/6/2005 5:30:10 PM EDT
LINK


A strong argument of the Five-seveN's proponents is its performance in shootings. Anyone shot with the Five-seveN's 5.7mm cartridge has died immediately. Currently there have been over a dozen shootings with the 5.7x28mm round.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:32:31 PM EDT
One of firearms manufacturer FN's latest offerings, the 5.7mm Five-seveN pistol is remarkably different from anything else of its kind. The most significant advantages incorporated in the Five-seveN are the ammunition, accuracy, weight, and size.

The Five-seveN uses the 5.7x28mm ammunition designed by FN for their P90 sub-machine gun. Conventional pistols usually use 9x19mm, 10x21mm, .45 ACP and similar bullets that are effective for stopping an individual in ordinary circumstances. However, FN argues that if that individual is wearing even a light Kevlar vest, these bullets will be stopped with little damage inflicted, and body armor is currently in use with over 50% of the world’s armed forces. For law enforcement officers, the ability to pierce body armor is also said to be needed, as it is worn by an increasing number of criminals. The Five-seveN pistol is advertised as being perfectly fitted to these needs. It is claimed to be capable of piercing a US Army vest at 300 meters range, and a US Army helmet at 240 meters range. An important point to note is that these penetration statistics are for the military SS190 5.7x28mm cartridges, and NOT for the civilian ammunition.

Despite these figures, the 5.7mm round is credited with weighing half as much as a 9mm round and producing roughly half the recoil. The 5.7mm round used in the Five-seveN is marketed as being able to effectively incapacitate a human target, but there has been controversy from skeptics over whether it is capable. Conventional hollow-point bullets rely on expansion to create a large wound, but the Five-seveN's cartridge is made to hit the target, travel a few inches, then turn point upwards while inside the target and continue traveling in this manner. This means that the wound it creates would be as tall as the length of the projectile—a little over twenty-one millimeters or nearly one inch, creating a deep wound channel but without the fragmentation of a hollowpoint or frangible bullet, making it acceptable for military use. But due to the fact that the bullet does not expand and fracture on impact and during travel, it can be removed with greater ease by a surgeon than the multiple small shards of a traditional hollowpoint. A strong argument of the Five-seveN's proponents is its performance in shootings. Anyone shot with the Five-seveN's 5.7mm cartridge has died immediately. Currently there have been over a dozen shootings with the 5.7x28mm round. However, skeptics argue that this isn't a large enough sample to make any conclusions.

The negligible recoil produced by the 5.7x28mm makes the Five-seveN remarkably accurate out to a range of 100 meters, though this is beyond the distance at which most handgun encounters are likely to occur. The firer also has many chances to hit the target because the capacity of the weapon is also a vast improvement over other pistols due to the 20-round magazine. But despite this capacity and the unusual length of its bullets, the Five-seveN is an incredibly light pistol, weighing 1.6 pounds loaded—only 70% as much as other plastic pistols and 50% as much as metal pistols. The Five-seveN is also reasonably compact, being the same size as comparable pistols that hold half as many cartridges of shorter length! It can be seen that the advantages incorporated in the FN Five-seveN make it an effective, if unusual, pistol. It has not been widely adopted, due mostly to the unconventional concept and ammunition. Users include several international special forces/counter terrorist groups (including the renowned French GIGN) and a large number of US police department SWAT teams.

The Five-seveN has been featured in multiple videogames and TV shows, though not as many as the more popular P90. These include Counter-Strike, Counter-Strike Source, Splinter Cell, and others. The Five-seveN is also featured on Battlestar Galactica along with the P90.

What a load of crap.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:32:56 PM EDT
immediately huh...sounds kinda hooey to me

id like to see someone shot in the arm and die immediately

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:37:48 PM EDT
It's Wikipedia.

If it's crap, correct it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:38:16 PM EDT
Through a kevlar vest at 300 meters? Uhh ok.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:41:21 PM EDT
It will be Bush's fault if they come out with 5.7x28mm Black Talon ammo...!
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:41:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By afplayboy18:
immediately huh...sounds kinda hooey to me

id like to see someone shot in the arm and die immediately




Nah, you got it wrong. It's like racking a 12 gauge shotgun... anyone within ear shot will immediately panic and run away.

Even at a skeet shoot.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:48:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clutchsmoke:
Through a kevlar vest at 300 meters? Uhh ok.



LINK


Five-seveN® pistols and SS190 round team up to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action.

Enemy personel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters.

Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.



Velocity of SS190 ammo is 2,133 FPS from the Five-seveN
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:50:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
It's Wikipedia.

If it's crap, correct it.



...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:50:14 PM EDT
Fixed it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:52:30 PM EDT
OMG the sky is falling.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
LINK


A strong argument of the Five-seveN's proponents is its performance in shootings. Anyone shot with the Five-seveN's 5.7mm cartridge has died immediately. Currently there have been over a dozen shootings with the 5.7x28mm round.



I would bet large quantities of cash that those words were posted in Wikipedia by our own DmL5. He has made this exact statement ad nauseum.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:53:40 PM EDT
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!




Maybe your spouse would, i wouldnt brag about even being shot with a 22.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:04:05 PM EDT
fixed it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:05:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!




Maybe your spouse would, i wouldnt brag about even being shot with a 22.



It's a joke. I think Lumpy said it first.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:07:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!



OK, lets go little man.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:08:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:09:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
LINK


A strong argument of the Five-seveN's proponents is its performance in shootings. Anyone shot with the Five-seveN's 5.7mm cartridge has died immediately. Currently there have been over a dozen shootings with the 5.7x28mm round.



If they were all head shots I'd believe it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:09:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Tanam:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!




Maybe your spouse would, i wouldnt brag about even being shot with a 22.



It's a joke. I think Lumpy said it first.



I dont even see Lumpys post, maybe im blind.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:19:55 PM EDT
I just went in and improved the article. I changed references to people to include the "agressor" or the "enemy", and worked on technical improvements. I know there is still work to be done.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:24:40 PM EDT
Given that everyone ever born has died eventually or will die within the next 125 years, all that can be said with certainty is that under certain circumstances, the FiveSeveN can accelerate natural processes.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:31:27 PM EDT
Seeing as most users of the 5.7 are in the business of killing people and train a lot to maintain and improve their proficiency at such, I suspect that they are making good hits, and lots of them.

However, the smaller the cartridge, the smaller the margin of error. In CQB, for instance, the 155mm howitzer has a VERY good record for one shot stops.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:46:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 6:52:56 PM EDT by natez]
Not enough data.

I would hazard that most of the 5.7mm usage in actual shootings, thus far, has been by SWAT Teams in the US.

I can think of THREE anecdotal incidents I have heard of, two fatal.

One, SWAT officer fires one round from a P90, with a hit, COM. DOS. Occurred in Texas.

Two, the embassy seige in Peru, where one Peruvian SF-type using a P90 hit a Sendero Luminoso terrorist with a burst in the chest, killing the bad guy.

Three was a Patrol supervisor in the South (I think GA) armed with a Five-Seven, who accidentally shot one of his troops in the chest on an alarm call or something similar. The round did penetrate a vest and the involved deputy, but the wound was relatively minor, and the deputy was treated and released.

I am sure there have been a few more 5.7mm , but by some estimates, there are maybe 300-500 police shootings in the US per year, the vast majority of which are with duty handguns. There aren't enough shootings with ANY caliber or load for there to a statistically signifigant set of data about the efficiency of any caliber of ammo selection. It is all anecdeotal, and, if I had to guess, I bet there have probably been fewer than 10 actual shootings in the US with the 5.7mm round, and I know of one that was decidely non-fatal. The majority of those shootings were likely by SWAT, and while SWAT operations have a very low use of force rate (suprise to all of those who dislike SWAT), when SWAT does use deadly force, regardless of the system employed, suspects generally tend to get dead.

The data on the 5.7mm round is less than impressive. It does a good job of penetrating soft body armor (as designed), but the terminal ballistics are weak. Remember, this round comes from the same folks who gave us the SS109, a round whose major design criteria were the ability to penetrate a steel helmet at extreme distance, particularly a longer distance than M80 Ball. This is a "trick" round.

About all I really KNOW from personal experience is that RA40T does a really good job of putting deer down, and that RA9T likes to send out sharp fragments when fired at steel from an SMG.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:50:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If you shot me with that thing, and I found out about it, I'd kick your ass!




Maybe your spouse would, i wouldnt brag about even being shot with a 22.




I have been shot with a .22 (rimfire) it hurt, it sucked, the bullet was still in my shoulder on last x-ray, that all said, a .22 rimfire has to hit you in a good spot to kill you (artery, skull, etc.) the chance of blkeedout is lessened. I assume the 5.7 is similar, especially in any ball type configuration.

I still don't want to ever get shot by one.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:56:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By clutchsmoke:
Through a kevlar vest at 300 meters? Uhh ok.



LINK


Five-seveN® pistols and SS190 round team up to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action.

Enemy personel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters.

Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.



Velocity of SS190 ammo is 2,133 FPS from the Five-seveN



So what you're saying is it will set-off Tannerite. Sweet....
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:05:08 PM EDT
I bet a case of beer nobody can find a link to info on 12 shootings using a FN5.7.


CH
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:07:25 PM EDT
...................recent reports indicate that up to twenty people have been severely injured by having the pistol pointed at them, and six victims were hospitalized for just viewing a picture of the weapon, most of them in Northern California.


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:08:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
I bet a case of beer nobody can find a link to info on 12 shootings using a FN5.7.


CH



IM DmL5. He has posted numerous times that he has collected over a dozen shootings, all fatal. Of course, he never posts the shooitngs, only his claims. The two shootings he always posts are the Lima, Peru embasy shooting, and one in Houston wherein the dead perp was struck multiple times by both 5.7 and AR rounds.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 7:52:12 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
I bet a case of beer nobody can find a link to info on 12 shootings using a FN5.7.


CH



IM DmL5. He has posted numerous times that he has collected over a dozen shootings, all fatal. Of course, he never posts the shooitngs, only his claims. The two shootings he always posts are the Lima, Peru embasy shooting, and one in Houston wherein the dead perp was struck multiple times by both 5.7 and AR rounds.



We will see what people find...btw, Full Sail Brewery is in my hometown!
CH
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:41:39 PM EDT
I had a page of diatribe typed up but it boiled down to this.....


Busting through armor and terminal effectiveness are mutually disagreeable attributes when it comes to small arms ammo.



Use it for what it is intended for, just like anything else.
Top Top