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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:04:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:06:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:09:00 PM EDT by CS223]
Between two FFL's all that is required is a signed copy of the FFL. It can be faxed as long as the receiver confirms the validity via the EzCheck link.

ETA. the shipping FFL logs it out in his bound book to the receiving FFL and records the FFL number. Like wise the receiver logs it in with the shipping dealers name & FFL number. That's it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:08:36 PM EDT
the recipient needs to send a signed copy of their FFL to the sender, the ATF has ruled that a FAX copy is acceptable for this. the sender tosses an ink signed copy of their FFL with the weapon, and drop it in the mail.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:13:21 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:20:18 PM EDT
Long guns can go from an individual to an FFL. The FFL sends a copy of his FFL to the individual and the person sends the long gun to the ffl.

It's easy. Some FFL will only rec from other ffl even on long guns. Best to find this out before starting a transaction. I have heard some horror stories.

rj.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:25:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:27:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:37:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 6:40:43 PM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:49:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 7:51:25 PM EDT by PK90]
Ed,
I always send a copy of my license with a firearm. I believe that this is a requirement, but can't say for sure. I will research it now.
If you have sent them without the FFL copy, don't sweat it. Just fax a copy to the dealer.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:52:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 7:53:33 PM EDT by rcoers]
The sending FFL needs a copy of the receiving FFL's license, and that's it. However, a non-licensed person does not need to receive a copy of the license of the FFL he sends a gun to.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:56:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:


If you are saying that the sending FFL does not have to send a copy of his license to the receiving FFL,that is how I understand it.However,some FFLs claim it is illegal for me as an FFL not to send them a copy of mine for a transfer they will be making for a buyer.

When an FFL receives a shipment from Colt,Bushmaster,etc they do NOT send a copy of their license with the shipment.The receiving FFL can log it in WITHOUT an actual copy of Colt's,Bushmaster's,etc license.Just the FFL number!

Is that what you are saying?



The sending FFL DOES need to send a copy of their license.

When I get firearms from a manufacturer, they INCLUDE a copy of their license.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:56:48 PM EDT
EdSr is an FFL now??

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:24:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
The sending FFL DOES need to send a copy of their license.
When I get firearms from a manufacturer, they INCLUDE a copy of their license.


I've never received a copy of a distributor's license and I cannot presently find the regulation that says they, or any other dealer has to. However, I always have sent one printed on "Void" paper.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:25:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
The sending FFL DOES need to send a copy of their license.
When I get firearms from a manufacturer, they INCLUDE a copy of their license.


I've never received a copy of a distributor's license and I cannot presently find the regulation that says they, or any other dealer has to. However, I always have sent one printed on "Void" paper.



You won't find it, because that regulation doesn't EXIST!
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:28:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
EdSr is an FFL now??




You didn't participate in the 2005 SEBR buy I see.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:47:36 PM EDT
When I was an FFL, Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS NEVER sent a copy of their FFL. The BATFE book stated that you are to enter the FFL # OR the name and address of the sender.

I got into a big hassle with Global Trades about this one time. They refused to send me their FFL.

I think it's up to the discretion of the two parties involved. I received many guns without an FFL in the box. Some shippers will also not accept a gun for shipment without an FFL,. even thought the law clearly states otherwise.

By the way-the BATFE cannot RULE on anything. They do not make or interpret law. The full-auto bolt carrier is a perfect example. For years, folks fell for the BATFE's bullshit about full-auto parts.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:58:44 PM EDT
I learned to just send the FFL.

Causes fewer problems.

I actually had a bunch of dealers refuse to accept guns because I didn't include an invoice, just my FFL.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:39:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:56:08 AM EDT
Fax a copy of your FFL to him, along with a copy of the ATF newlestter that says faxed copys are acceptable. He's just out of the loop and being an asshole, probably because it's a new gun and he isn't getting a chunk of the sale.

A private party or FFL distributor can ship a firearm to an FFL, it is logged in with the name & address if they don't provide a FFL copy. You can also use an abreviated FFL number, the sequence of digits required for EzCheck to log it in. You can call a distributor and ask for their FFL number on the phone and just write it in the A&D book, just saves you from writing the address. There is alot more leadway on the receiving from end than there is on the sending to end.

If you are sending a firearm across state lines, you have to be certain that it's going to a valid FFL. That's why distrbutors are certain to get your signed FFL but never send you theirs.

An FFL can get a gun from anybody, anywhere in the US, but can only send a gun to another FFL or in the case of a repair, back to the original senders address.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:56:47 AM EDT
Tag for outcome. The guy sounds like he's got a burr under his saddle.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:03:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:33:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 8:43:32 AM EDT by Oslow]
My local FFL has received and transferred guns with no paperwork except the shipping label. However, he did bitch that the shipping FFL could at least send an invoice for his files.



But he is kind of lazy and probably would have lost the piece of paper before it got to a file anyway.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:17:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:18:52 AM EDT by rcoers]
The receiving dealer is the only one that is required by regulation to send his FFL. This is so the sending dealer knows the guy that is receiving the gun is an FFL.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:25:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:27:23 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:36:05 AM EDT
This is a crock.

We always sent one along as a courtesy to the other FFL, but no where have I ever found is it 'required' that the sender include a copy of their license. Only the one receiving it, so that you could verify validity. I can count on one hand the number of distributors we got FFLs from every year. On the other hand, every January, we were licking stamps and envelopes to mail out copies of FFLs and Tax IDs to all our distributors.

Good luck, Ed Sr. Give this asshat a real piece of your mind, 'soons the customer has his rifle.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:00:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:


The reason I am asking is not hypothetical,a dumbass FFL in IL has contacted the BATF.Rather than summarize what he told me,I am including his email to me below:



Pretty much what some jackleg did to me for not sending an INVOICE when I did include a FFL.

Welcome to hell...I mean.... the wonderful world of the firearms trade.

Hey, if I call the supplier in Shotgun News and do "all the work" will you transfer me a gun at dealer price.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:04:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 7:06:03 AM EDT by David_Hineline]
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:55:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Swapping FFLs is typical common courtesey, but not required....


+1

Originally Posted By PK90:
I always send a copy of my license with a firearm. I believe that this is a requirement, but can't say for sure. I will research it now.


I searched high and low and could not find any regulation. I guess I was being courteous without even trying.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 2:06:33 PM EDT
Considering folks who are not FFL holders can ship firearms to an FFL holder it would appear that this asshat is full of shit but he kind of holds the cards until the rifle is picked up. Pacify the bastard then rain a storm of shit on him.. An ARFCOM fire mission may be in order here (Just to edjumicate the feller)!!

Ed, The amount of aggravation you have endured through this SEBR process is amazing. I want to congratulate you for your patience and strength through it all and offer once again MANY THANKS for doing it for all of us here. Bruce
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:20:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
An individual sending a gun to a FFL holder needs nothing and should not get a copy of the dealer's license. .



Then how does the individual , selling a gun on the internet , verify that he is sending the gun to a bonified FFL ?? Without the copy of the FFL you can't go to the ATF site and verify the number. I have sold 8 to 10 handguns and long guns over state lines and not one of the receiving FFL's has said a word about not needing to send me his FFL. The handguns and some of the long guns were transferred through a local FFL. Some of the rifles I shipped myself through USPS.

rj
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:23:51 PM EDT
Part 2. I just sent a receiver and bbl to an FFL for a Savage 219 single shot 30-30. This rifle is so old that it does not have a serial #. Now what ?????

rj
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:30:14 PM EDT
There was a poor guy on another site that had a similar experience to the one below except the receiving FFL didn't mention that he only accepted transfers from other FFLs AFTER the gun was already in his shop shipped from an individual. This ass kept the poor fellow's gun a couple of months making all kinds of threats, etc. Totally legal transfer, just the guy was being an ass.

Actually I know of 2 incidents. In the other another FFL holder went and talked to the asshole and got him to transfer the gun to him and then he transfered the gun to the rightful owner. Some people just get on a self-righteous power trip and don't know where to stop.

rj

Origina­lly Posted By EdAvilaSr:
Thanks for all the replies.

Evidently from this thread,some believe -like I do-that the sending FFL is not LEGALY obligated to send a copy of his FFL with the shipment.
Some of you have done it to avoid problems,etc and i agree that it makes the hardass receiving FFLs feel better,but my question is : Is it illegal for a sending FFL NOT TO INCLUDE ONE!I will call

The reason I am asking is not hypothetical,a dumbass FFL in IL has contacted the BATF.Rather than summarize what he told me,I am including his email to me below:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
received a package with a Bushmaster today. ...................................
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:30:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 3:32:09 PM EDT by SP10]
HAH! Now that SteyrAUG is retiring his FFL, looks like we have a new contender for the NEW TALES OF THE FFL series

EDIT: Missed you at the funshow and lunch today Ed, but we roasted cheered you in absentia
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:04:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 6:30:49 PM EDT by stingerHP]
Deleted
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:10:10 PM EDT
Hi Ed,
If you are now an FFL in NY State couldn't you directly mail/ups the rifles to residents in NY State? I thought I remember reading that somewhere.
I am on the list of a Monday mail out. Thanks for all your hard work.
JT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:52:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stingerHP:
MY FFL DEALER REQUIRES IDENTIFICATION FROM THE SENDER. IF A DEALER, THEN A COPY OF THEIR FFL (AR15.COM) MUST ACCOMPANY THE FIREARM. IF HE DOESN'T GET ONE THEN HE ASSUMES THE SENDER IS A PRIVATE PARTY AND WOULD STILL REQUIRE THAT PERSON SUBMIT A COPY OF HIS D/L AND RESIDENCE PHONE NUMBER. AND IF NOTHING IS PROVIDED HE WON'T RELEASE THE FIREARM UNTIL HE HAS PROOF THAT THE FIREARM IS NOT STOLEN BY CALLING SENDER TO SUPPLY THE PROPER INFORMATION.

RC


??????????????

Doesn't your dealer know who is sending him a firearm? Or does one just show up at his door? And how would he know that the firearm is stolen with or without the documentation from the sender? It doesn't make sense.


Originally Posted By rjay:
Then how does the individual , selling a gun on the internet , verify that he is sending the gun to a bonified FFL ?? Without the copy of the FFL you can't go to the ATF site and verify the number.


ASK the FFL for the first 3 and last 5 numbers of his license so that verification can be made HERE. A non-licensee need only verify confirm that he is sending a firearm to a dealer. No certified copy is necessary. David_Hineline is obsolutely correct as usual. An individual shipping a gun should not get a copy of a license.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:34:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnLINY:
Hi Ed,
If you are now an FFL in NY State couldn't you directly mail/ups the rifles to residents in NY State? I thought I remember reading that somewhere.
I am on the list of a Monday mail out. Thanks for all your hard work.
JT



No. A FFL holder can't do that. A private transfer is only legal between non-licensees.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:14:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:15:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 10:36:40 AM EDT by Duskykiller]
Check regulation 478.124a
Requirements for receipt are name address date of receipt

OR the FFL number and address

Plus the manufacture, model number and Ser. no.

It clearly states that the FFL number is not required.


Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:53:31 AM EDT
How do people get things so screwed up? It isn't like this is all new.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:44:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 6:31:30 PM EDT by stingerHP]
Deleted
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:50:27 PM EDT
It would be a cold day in hell before I sent a copy of my DL, DOB, Tel # and SSN to an out-of-state FFL.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:55:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 6:32:13 PM EDT by stingerHP]
Deleted
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:02:37 PM EDT
Sending personal info like this FFL is requiring is an open invitation for identity theft. In any case the info he is asking for is easily fabricated.

I would verify the FFL shipping address using the ATF EZcheck system. That's it. Nothing more is required.

"The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid. The user needs only enter the first 3 digits and the last 5 digits of the FFL being verified in the blocks provided and select the SUBMIT button. Selecting the RESET button will clear previously entered data."
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:37:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:24:04 PM EDT
Ed, this guy sounds like a genuine clown, after the rifle is transfered lets give him the circus he deserves. I'm getting angry and it didn't even happen to me, but I applaud your restraint, you handled it just right, but you can't let him have a walk on this.

We need to stop this kind of behavior in it's tracks, calling the BATFE over something insignifigant - and more important, something that's completely legal - is a perfect example of why we keep getting hammered with legislation.

Who needs th VPC when we have assclowns like this on our side.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:30:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By oneshot1kill:
Ed, this guy sounds like a genuine clown, after the rifle is transfered lets give him the circus he deserves. I'm getting angry and it didn't even happen to me, but I applaud your restraint, you handled it just right, but you can't let him have a walk on this.

We need to stop this kind of behavior in it's tracks, calling the BATFE over something insignifigant - and more important, something that's completely legal - is a perfect example of why we keep getting hammered with legislation.

Who needs th VPC when we have assclowns like this on our side.



Are you refering to me or my dealer . . . Either way I've not stepped on anyones toes, I was just joining in a thread that was discussing the what was legally required as compared to what was customary. No where did I say it was required by FFL only what was requested by my dealer when shipping something to him for a first time. Now Ed is shipping 200 rifles to most likely over 150 individual FFL dealers and that's a chore. So how does one dealers requests make such a big deal to those not even involved and then get insulting on top of it.

I bought this rifle for two reasons: 1. because it was a great deal as a group buy. and 2. It was a chance to become a member of a well regarded group of guys who seemed like ok joes. Now I'm being ostrasized for just making conversation.

Well excuse me all to hell . . .
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:44:04 AM EDT
Should this go to the Team Forum, just incase there's a lurker out there?

Just a thought...
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:57:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:09:35 AM EDT
For the life of me I don't understand what the idiot FFL expects the ATF to do.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:32:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 11:33:01 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
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