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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:06:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Between two FFL's all that is required is a signed copy of the FFL. It can be faxed as long as the receiver confirms the validity via the EzCheck link.
ETA. the shipping FFL logs it out in his bound book to the receiving FFL and records the FFL number. Like wise the receiver logs it in with the shipping dealers name & FFL number. That's it. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:08:36 PM EDT
[#2]
the recipient needs to send a signed copy of their FFL to the sender, the ATF has ruled that a FAX copy is acceptable for this. the sender tosses an ink signed copy of their FFL with the weapon, and drop it in the mail.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:13:21 PM EDT
[#3]
tag
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:20:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Long guns can go from an individual to an FFL. The FFL sends a copy of his FFL to the individual and the person sends the long gun to the ffl.
It's easy. Some FFL will only rec from other ffl even on long guns. Best to find this out before starting a transaction. I have heard some horror stories. rj. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:25:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Long guns can go from an individual to an FFL. The FFL sends a copy of his FFL to the individual and the person sends the long gun to the ffl.
It's easy. Some FFL will only rec from other ffl even on long guns. Best to find this out before starting a transaction. I have heard some horror stories. rj. Absolutely wrong. The sending FFL dealer, needs a copy of the receiving FFL dealer's license on file. An individual sending a gun to a FFL holder needs nothing and should not get a copy of the dealer's license. The receiving dealer must log in where the gun came from, most dealers will want some id of the seller, but as far as the inbound book goes, it could be logged in as Bought from Tall man street corner of 12th and jackson, chicago Illinois. Pawn shops have more legal regs than regular gun shops. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:27:19 PM EDT
[#6]
The receiving dealer legally needs get anything from the selling gun dealer other than either thier name/address or FFL number.
When I log in a gun from say Colt. I can put Colt/ Hartford Connecticut, or I can log in from thier FFL number if I have it, or both. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:37:52 PM EDT
[#7]
If you are saying that the sending FFL does not have to send a copy of his license to the receiving FFL,that is how I understand it.However,some FFLs claim it is illegal for me as an FFL not to send them a copy of mine for a transfer they will be making for a buyer. When an FFL receives a shipment from Colt,Bushmaster,etc they do NOT send a copy of their license with the shipment.The receiving FFL can log it in WITHOUT an actual copy of Colt's,Bushmaster's,etc license.Just the FFL number! Is that what you are saying? 
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:49:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Ed,
I always send a copy of my license with a firearm. I believe that this is a requirement, but can't say for sure. I will research it now. If you have sent them without the FFL copy, don't sweat it. Just fax a copy to the dealer. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:52:26 PM EDT
[#9]
The sending FFL needs a copy of the receiving FFL's license, and that's it. However, a non-licensed person does not need to receive a copy of the license of the FFL he sends a gun to.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:56:14 PM EDT
[#10]
The sending FFL DOES need to send a copy of their license. When I get firearms from a manufacturer, they INCLUDE a copy of their license. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:56:48 PM EDT
[#11]
EdSr is an FFL now??
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:24:57 PM EDT
[#12]
I've never received a copy of a distributor's license and I cannot presently find the regulation that says they, or any other dealer has to. However, I always have sent one printed on "Void" paper. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:25:56 PM EDT
[#13]
You won't find it, because that regulation doesn't EXIST! |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:28:25 PM EDT
[#14]
You didn't participate in the 2005 SEBR buy I see. 
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:47:36 PM EDT
[#15]
When I was an FFL, Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS NEVER sent a copy of their FFL. The BATFE book stated that you are to enter the FFL # OR the name and address of the sender.
I got into a big hassle with Global Trades about this one time. They refused to send me their FFL. I think it's up to the discretion of the two parties involved. I received many guns without an FFL in the box. Some shippers will also not accept a gun for shipment without an FFL,. even thought the law clearly states otherwise. By the way-the BATFE cannot RULE on anything. They do not make or interpret law. The full-auto bolt carrier is a perfect example. For years, folks fell for the BATFE's bullshit about full-auto parts. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:58:44 PM EDT
[#16]
I learned to just send the FFL.
Causes fewer problems. I actually had a bunch of dealers refuse to accept guns because I didn't include an invoice, just my FFL. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 4:39:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Thanks for all the replies.
Evidently from this thread,some believe -like I do-that the sending FFL is not LEGALY obligated to send a copy of his FFL with the shipment. Some of you have done it to avoid problems,etc and i agree that it makes the hardass receiving FFLs feel better,but my question is : Is it illegal for a sending FFL NOT TO INCLUDE ONE!I will call The reason I am asking is not hypothetical,a dumbass FFL in IL has contacted the BATF.Rather than summarize what he told me,I am including his email to me below: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- received a package with a Bushmaster today. Included were NO paperwork, either a copy of a FFL or a packing slip (receipt with a serial #), both of which were expected. I presume that the firearm came from your location as the shipping label indicated ar15.com on it. I have been in contact with the ATF in Chicago and was advised that if you refuse to furnish this information, they will follow up and check all of your records. Apparently you have not been in business long enough to know the requirements for shipping weapons to another dealer (dealer transfer). I have e-mailed you in the past and have not received any reply to my message. I will await the proper documentation (if this gun came from you), otherwise I'm leaving it up the ATF as to how this is going to be handled. I've been in business too long to start not doing things as required. In the meantime, the ATF advised that I log the weapon in the A&D as coming from UNKNOWN. It's in your ball park now. Joe S cc: ATF Inspector Carol Eubanks --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The package was CLEARLY marked with my name and address,as well as who the rifle is for (customer name) The box -not to mention the rifle-  has the SN on it,so I am not sure what this SOAB means by "refuse to provide this information"  I think what makes this guy a dumbass is the way he has reacted and contacted the BATFE.Even if the sending FFL made a mistake,this is not the way I would have handled it. I have quietly told him I would send him a copy of my FFL and have not made a big deal out of it because I want the rifle delivered to the intended recepient.After that,this Joe "prick" will hear what I think of him! I will call the BATFE on Mon, and get their input as to what is REQUIRED. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 4:56:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Fax a copy of your FFL to him, along with a copy of the ATF newlestter that says faxed copys are acceptable. He's just out of the loop and being an asshole, probably because it's a new gun and he isn't getting a chunk of the sale.
A private party or FFL distributor can ship a firearm to an FFL, it is logged in with the name & address if they don't provide a FFL copy. You can also use an abreviated FFL number, the sequence of digits required for EzCheck to log it in. You can call a distributor and ask for their FFL number on the phone and just write it in the A&D book, just saves you from writing the address. There is alot more leadway on the receiving from end than there is on the sending to end. If you are sending a firearm across state lines, you have to be certain that it's going to a valid FFL. That's why distrbutors are certain to get your signed FFL but never send you theirs. An FFL can get a gun from anybody, anywhere in the US, but can only send a gun to another FFL or in the case of a repair, back to the original senders address. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 4:56:47 AM EDT
[#19]
Tag for outcome. The guy sounds like he's got a burr under his saddle.
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:03:07 AM EDT
[#20]
The BATFE says it is acceptable to fax a copy,but don't forget this guy wants to be stricter than what is required,so he told me he would like a "hard copy" I don't know why some people want to be assholes,but the fact is that they would rather cause problems for others, than help resolve them! |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:33:41 AM EDT
[#21]
My local FFL has received and transferred guns with no paperwork except the shipping label. However, he did bitch that the shipping FFL could at least send an invoice for his files.
But he is kind of lazy and probably would have lost the piece of paper before it got to a file anyway. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:17:57 AM EDT
[#22]
The receiving dealer is the only one that is required by regulation to send his FFL. This is so the sending dealer knows the guy that is receiving the gun is an FFL.
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:25:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Here is my email to him this AM.It is sarcastic,but remains civil.It is not all he will hear from me,but I will remain relatively quiet until after he has transferred the rifle to the customer
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Avila Sr" <[email protected]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:28 AM Subject: Re: shipment rcvd 1/6/06 > I am mailing you a copy of the FFL tody,since you will not accept a faxed > copy,which BATF says is perfectly acceptable. > > I have searched for the regulation that you say REQUIRES that a shipping FFL > sends a copy of his license to a receiving FFL and I can't find it.Perhaps > you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction, since I am new > at this and you are so experienced.. > This is what I have found : > in a transfer between FFLs: > "the licencee to receive the firearm shall furnish a copy of his > license to the licencee selling or otherwise disposing of the firearm prior > to making the transaction" (CFR 478.94 and 478.95) > > I am not sure why you say I "refuse to furnish you with information of > where the rifle came from",since it had a shipping label with my > name/address,a separate 5 x 2 inch address label with our > name/address...................... PLUS you were told by the customer > expecting it, it would come from us, and you had emailed me about it. > > BTW,you say I did not reply to your emails,but there was nothing to > reply to in an email from you that gave me your address and phone number.A > second one says you moved because you closed the shop.I was not aware that I > was expected to reply.....so,I apologize! > > If you send me a fax number,we could speed this up,so you can give the > customer-who is in no way responsible for my not complying to your > requests-and should not be "punished" in retribution. > > Please,feel free to submit a copy on this email to Ms Eubanks to keep > her informed of what has transpired,now that you have decided it is > necessary to involve the BATFE. > > Respectfully, > > > > > Ed Avila > (address and phone number) |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:36:05 AM EDT
[#24]
This is a crock.
We always sent one along as a courtesy to the other FFL, but no where have I ever found is it 'required' that the sender include a copy of their license. Only the one receiving it, so that you could verify validity. I can count on one hand the number of distributors we got FFLs from every year. On the other hand, every January, we were licking stamps and envelopes to mail out copies of FFLs and Tax IDs to all our distributors. Good luck, Ed Sr. Give this asshat a real piece of your mind, 'soons the customer has his rifle. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:00:23 AM EDT
[#25]
Pretty much what some jackleg did to me for not sending an INVOICE when I did include a FFL. Welcome to Hey, if I call the supplier in Shotgun News and do "all the work" will you transfer me a gun at dealer price. 
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:04:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Swapping FFLs is typical common courtesey, but not required. Don't believe anything will come from his ATF contact. He is just full of steam.
And how can you send him an invoice, since you did not sell the rifle to him? What business of his is it how much you sold something for to your customer? |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:55:30 AM EDT
[#27]
+1
I searched high and low and could not find any regulation. I guess I was being courteous without even trying.
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Posted: 1/7/2006 2:06:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Considering folks who are not FFL holders can ship firearms to an FFL holder it would appear that this asshat is full of shit but he kind of holds the cards until the rifle is picked up. Pacify the bastard then rain a storm of shit on him.. An ARFCOM fire mission may be in order here (Just to edjumicate the feller
 )!! Ed, The amount of aggravation you have endured through this SEBR process is amazing. I want to congratulate you for your patience and strength through it all and offer once again MANY THANKS for doing it for all of us here. Bruce |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 3:20:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Then how does the individual , selling a gun on the internet , verify that he is sending the gun to a bonified FFL ?? Without the copy of the FFL you can't go to the ATF site and verify the number. I have sold 8 to 10 handguns and long guns over state lines and not one of the receiving FFL's has said a word about not needing to send me his FFL. The handguns and some of the long guns were transferred through a local FFL. Some of the rifles I shipped myself through USPS. rj |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 3:23:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Part 2. I just sent a receiver and bbl to an FFL for a Savage 219 single shot 30-30. This rifle is so old that it does not have a serial #. Now what ?????
rj |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 3:30:14 PM EDT
[#31]
There was a poor guy on another site that had a similar experience to the one below except the receiving FFL didn't mention that he only accepted transfers from other FFLs AFTER the gun was already in his shop shipped from an individual. This ass kept the poor fellow's gun a couple of months making all kinds of threats, etc. Totally legal transfer, just the guy was being an ass.
Actually I know of 2 incidents. In the other another FFL holder went and talked to the asshole and got him to transfer the gun to him and then he transfered the gun to the rightful owner. Some people just get on a self-righteous power trip and don't know where to stop. rj Quoted: Thanks for all the replies. Evidently from this thread,some believe -like I do-that the sending FFL is not LEGALY obligated to send a copy of his FFL with the shipment. Some of you have done it to avoid problems,etc and i agree that it makes the hardass receiving FFLs feel better,but my question is : Is it illegal for a sending FFL NOT TO INCLUDE ONE!I will call The reason I am asking is not hypothetical,a dumbass FFL in IL has contacted the BATF.Rather than summarize what he told me,I am including his email to me below: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- received a package with a Bushmaster today. ................................... |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 3:30:38 PM EDT
[#32]
HAH! Now that SteyrAUG is retiring his FFL, looks like we have a new contender for the NEW TALES OF THE FFL series
 EDIT: Missed you at the funshow and lunch today Ed, but we
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Posted: 1/7/2006 4:04:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Deleted
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:10:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Hi Ed,
If you are now an FFL in NY State couldn't you directly mail/ups the rifles to residents in NY State? I thought I remember reading that somewhere. I am on the list of a Monday mail out. Thanks for all your hard work. JT |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:52:15 PM EDT
[#35]
?????????????? Doesn't your dealer know who is sending him a firearm? Or does one just show up at his door? And how would he know that the firearm is stolen with or without the documentation from the sender? It doesn't make sense.
ASK the FFL for the first 3 and last 5 numbers of his license so that verification can be made HERE. A non-licensee need only |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 5:34:37 AM EDT
[#36]
No. A FFL holder can't do that. A private transfer is only legal between non-licensees. |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 10:14:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Yes,somehow,somewhere............someone (FFL) needs to have you fill a 4473 form and the NICS |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 10:15:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Check regulation 478.124a
Requirements for receipt are name address date of receipt OR the FFL number and address Plus the manufacture, model number and Ser. no. It clearly states that the FFL number is not required. |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 11:53:31 AM EDT
[#39]
How do people get things so screwed up? It isn't like this is all new.
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Posted: 1/8/2006 3:44:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Deleted
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Posted: 1/8/2006 3:50:27 PM EDT
[#41]
It would be a cold day in hell before I sent a copy of my DL, DOB, Tel # and SSN to an out-of-state FFL.
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Posted: 1/8/2006 3:55:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Deleted
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Posted: 1/8/2006 4:02:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Sending personal info like this FFL is requiring is an open invitation for identity theft. In any case the info he is asking for is easily fabricated.
I would verify the FFL shipping address using the ATF EZcheck system. That's it. Nothing more is required. "The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid. The user needs only enter the first 3 digits and the last 5 digits of the FFL being verified in the blocks provided and select the SUBMIT button. Selecting the RESET button will clear previously entered data." |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 4:37:23 PM EDT
[#44]
The fact is: the one required to prove he has a valid FFL is the one who will be receiving the firearm and making the transfer to the new owner.So, why do these businesses ask for more than is required by the law? CYA is not a good enough reason to put other people/businesses through more hassles than legally required.After all, the receiving FFL is supposed only to transfer the firearm (keeping the appropriate records) to the customer after making sure the customer is "legal" to own/posses. It is not the FFL's responsibility to investigate if the weapon is stolen,borrowed ..........or whatever. |
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Posted: 1/8/2006 5:24:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Ed, this guy sounds like a genuine clown, after the rifle is transfered lets give him the circus he deserves. I'm getting angry and it didn't even happen to me, but I applaud your restraint, you handled it just right, but you can't let him have a walk on this.
We need to stop this kind of behavior in it's tracks, calling the BATFE over something insignifigant - and more important, something that's completely legal - is a perfect example of why we keep getting hammered with legislation. Who needs th VPC when we have assclowns like this on our side.
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Posted: 1/8/2006 6:30:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Are you refering to me or my dealer . . . Either way I've not stepped on anyones toes, I was just joining in a thread that was discussing the what was legally required as compared to what was customary. No where did I say it was required by FFL only what was requested by my dealer when shipping something to him for a first time. Now Ed is shipping 200 rifles to most likely over 150 individual FFL dealers and that's a chore. So how does one dealers requests make such a big deal to those not even involved and then get insulting on top of it. I bought this rifle for two reasons: 1. because it was a great deal as a group buy. and 2. It was a chance to become a member of a well regarded group of guys who seemed like ok joes. Now I'm being ostrasized for just making conversation. Well excuse me all to hell . . . |
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Posted: 1/9/2006 10:44:04 AM EDT
[#47]
Should this go to the Team Forum, just incase there's a lurker out there?
Just a thought... |
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Posted: 1/9/2006 10:57:29 AM EDT
[#48]
I am sure he is not referring to neither your dealer or you.I am quite sure he is referring to the FFL who called the ATF because I did not send a copy of MY FFL |
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Posted: 1/9/2006 11:09:35 AM EDT
[#49]
For the life of me I don't understand what the idiot FFL expects the ATF to do.
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Posted: 1/9/2006 11:32:39 AM EDT
[#50]
He explicitly tell me what WILL happen if I do not tell him the package came from me and what the SN is Read it again.His email below: received a package with a Bushmaster today. Included were NO paperwork, either a copy of a FFL or a packing slip (receipt with a serial #), both of which were expected. I presume that the firearm came from your location as the shipping label indicated ar15.com on it. I have been in contact with the ATF in Chicago and was advised that if you refuse to furnish this information, they will follow up and check all of your records. Apparently you have not been in business long enough to know the requirements for shipping weapons to another dealer (dealer transfer). I have e-mailed you in the past and have not received any reply to my message. I will await the proper documentation (if this gun came from you), otherwise I'm leaving it up the ATF as to how this is going to be handled. I've been in business too long to start not doing things as required. In the meantime, the ATF advised that I log the weapon in the A&D as coming from UNKNOWN. It's in your ball park now. Joe S cc: ATF Inspector Carol Eubanks |
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