[url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-te.ar.fbi07jul07.story?coll=bal%2Dlocal%2Dheadlines[/url]



blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood

Door gunner: Get some! Get some! Get some, baby!

Private Joker: Do you ever shoot women and children?

Door gunner: Sometimes.

Private Joker: How can you shoot women and children?

Door gunner: It's easy! You just don't lead 'em so much.

Well, it's certainly nice to know that the FBI has cleaned up its act since Ruby Ridge, Waco, and a host of other such travesties.

Not.

We have another federal agency trampling on the lives, the rights, and the properties of the American people.

Quite frankly, I thought it might end with the election of George W. Bush, but it appears that the problems are institutional and are not subject to be easily changed.

And the most obvious answer is that the service does not [u]want[/u] to be changed.

So we have a group of hooligans with full auto weapons, basically Eagle Scouts on crack, that can assassinate mothers holding their children, incinerate churches full of women and children, and pull a 'Rambo' on a couple coming home from the mall, without so much as a single letter of reprimand in their file!

And not even a hint of state criminal prosecution!

Tell me that if you did the exact thing that Agent Braga did, you wouldn't be having three hots and a cot at the GrayBar Hotel!

Hell, why do we worry about foreign terrorists coming into this country?

It appears our domestic terrorists are doing quite nicely in their assumed role as guardians of our most cherished rights.

Just so long as those rights don't interfere with their frat-boy high-powered hijinks!

Eric The(OtWouldBeFunnyIfItWasn'tSoSerious)Hun[>]:)]

Sickening.  

[pissed]

So the real challenge becomes:  How do we stay informed without turning into one of these?

[peep]<---- White Horse

Pvt Joker: ..and why should I write story about you?

Door Gunner: Because I´m so f**king good!

wanna know "who" to blame?????

"...a grand jury declined to indict Braga last week on criminal charges stemming from the shooting."

blame the morons seated on the grand jury...the same morons that just ten minutes earlier probably indicted a 17 year old kid on marijuana possession.

morons.

They probably failed to indict simply because the State's District Attorney was simply going through the motions and presented a very favorable case for them to kick out!

Grand juries usually get things right, when the prosecutor actually believes in the case that he is presenting.

Eric The(But,ThenAgain,WhoKnows)Hun[>]:)]

The F.B.I.  fumbling bunch of idiots. Enough said. Poor guy,dead, wrong place wrong time, seems to be fashionable now for the Law to scream and yell like there on the verge of hysteria, we use to be taught, speak in a loud, firm, command tone voice, now it's a scream fest, with all involved doing it. In general Law Enforcement needs to get it together, they try to act like commandos, or special ops,not cops.And the training they gets proves it, I've been sent to schools ,Federal Schools and they say hostage loss is acceptable if you get the majority out, ok unless your the poor slob, who gets greased.

Look, guys, I think the FBI is right outside your window!!  They're comin' to git 'cha.  Those no good gestapo wannabe's.  It's all their fault that none of us wins the lottery, too.

Good For You, new guy.

Are you really an Aggie?

In Central Texas, looking out the window to see FBI agents is a traditional pasttime

Eric The(Traditional)Hun[>]:)]

Look, it's a fed mole.

Dammit, I'm busted.

Did you guys ever wonder how they get away with this shit so many times ?
I know why exactly,it's because they never shoot the wrong guy,and by wrong guy i mean they didn't shoot my son or one of my family or yours .
If they shoot the wrong guy one of these days they are going to get the wake up call of their lives.
If you kill one of mine ,well lets just say that a certain stallone movie comes to mind.
If you take away my reasons for living(family) then what do i have to lose,and a man who has nothing to lose and is trained(military)Is a very dangerous person.

You are probably right, beekeeper1.  However, I wasn't there when it happened nor have I been present at any of the subsequent hearings.  Were you?  Was anyone who posts here?  I doubt it.  Yet everyone is an expert on what they did wrong and how the entire FBI is corrupt and incompetent.  Sure, the agents should be held accountable, if necessary.  Fortunately, no one here is on the grand jury panel.  Everyone warns of loss of rights and so forth but a lot of you guys convicted the agent(s) a long time ago.  

You weren't born a Texan were you?
What part of they SHOT an innocent man don't you understand,and then they are held to a lesser standard then you or I,well maybe you are held to that same lesser standard with your attittude.
If an everyday guy had done this same thing where would he be right now?
If you made a mistake and shot the milkman at 4 in the morning do you really think you would walk?
And if you do think you would walk then you need a reality check.

the government teaches us by the example they set. we should hang them all.[pissed]

Sure, just ask Randy Weavers wife. Oh wait, you can't - she was shot by Federal Agent/Quantico trained sniper Lon Horiuchi in the head while she was holding her baby. Maybe we can ask Weaver's 14 year old son Sammy - oh wait we cant ask him either, he was shot in the back by Federal Agents.


Aggie, we arent sitting by our front door waiting for the JBTs to come barging in. But we certainly arent going to rule off every shooting as accidental discharges or mistaken identities either. You forget to remember, those who try these agents have for the most part no experience with firearms and have to take what the shooters claim as fact. I think I read somewhere that the Federal Agent who shot a fella in a drug raid say that the MP5 has a 'hair trigger' - I have a 93 and the trigger pull on that bad boy is about 14 pounds - definitely not what I'd consider a hair trigger. But do the judges/jury know any better?

What difference does it make where I was born?  That sort of logic almost deterred me from even reading the rest of your post.  I was born in Texas, believe it or not, but I have lived many other places.  Does that help?  Will I need to enumerate those places to help you nail down my "attitude".  Come on, jrzy, I'm not disagreeing with you, just positing some points I think are being missed. Mainly I take issue with the position that if one agent does something wrong that somehow "proves" that all of them are evil and out to get you and me.  I guess I picked the wrong thread to try to squeeze that opinion in on.  

What has been proven is that, that one agent was wrong, a man is dead, and the worst that might happen is his career advancement may be slowed, and our tax dollars will be paid out in the ensuing law suits. Armed aggie you got to realize this makes people angry , cause there is nothing we can do about it and it is just going to get worst, as time goes on. But you got people thinking and thats the purpose of this thread and the others.

You all will convict this guy based on the actions of someone else, in another location, years apart.

Without knowing any more than 4th hand information.

That certainly makes a lot of sense.

Using you logic then,  I might as well convict Jrzy of murder right off the bat.  After all.  he just prattled around and stated intent to kill complete strangers.

Try this on for my reasons.
 
Jrzy is a gun owner.  We all know gun owners are unstable whacko types.

Jrzy just stated (in a wordy mealy-mouthed sort of way)  that he'd go on a shooting rampage.  Obviously Jrzy is obsessed with criminal intent.  See "Gun Owner"

Jrzy by his own admission,  Is "trained Military"  (Trained in what is open to question)
We all know what fruit loops come out of the military,  especially those that own guns.

Lastly,  and most important,  I once (years ago),  had a bad experience involving a whacko gun nut from New Jersey.

Obviously no one from New Jersey should be allowed to run around loose. If they own guns,  they should be locked up and the key thrown away.

Can you guys see where I'm going with this?  Or is that jerking knee messing with your vision?

A Grand Jury cleared him.  Now, Grand Juries make good descisions, and bad ones,  but that's a topic for a different thread.

Man, Johninaustin, I was trying to be a bit diplomatic as I am a "new guy".  You weren't born in Austin, were you?  Just kidding.

Post from ArmedAggie -

Sadly, my Aggie friend, we have [u]all[/u] become experts on how corrupt and incompetent the FBI has become over the years.

'Careerists' are what they've become. They value their career and their pension over what used to be called justice in this country.

And it is, indeed, 'the entire FBI' that has been tainted with this disease.

Otherwise, we would be hearing from a lot of agents that were resigning in disgust over the general downward trend and the particular acts of gross incompetence, malfeasance, and what can only be described as a contempt for the citzenry they are supposed to serve!

Where are the good men and women in the Bureau?

Why have we [u]not[/u] heard from them?

Where are the articles, the books, interviews, the press conferences, the whistle blowers, etc.?

They live in an 'us vs. them' world that would make most Aryan Nation members look positively normal, I do believe![:D]

Perhaps it was best summed up in the statement by the behavorial scientist used by the FBI to give a report on the psychology behind those inside the so-called 'compound' - Dr. Alan F. Stone:

[b]"When I first was asked to be involved as a member of the panel, I thought the main problem was going to be understanding the psychology of the people inside the compound. [u]But as I got into it I quickly became aware that the psychology of the people outside the compound was more important to an understanding[/u]. They needed to take control and the tactical people in particular needed to show them who's boss."[/b]

Yesiree, the tactical people certainly did get to show those nasty Davidians and their innocent children 'who's boss' on April 19th!

Eric The(SaysItAll,Don'tYouThink?)Hun[>]:)]

ETH,

I guess even a quality education can't teach some people to think.[;)]

Aggie(Bleeds Maroon)1

Nope, born in Oklahoma City.

I just picked a bad day to come across a bunch of Chicken Little "The govt is evil" types.  

Especially those that answer every honest debate with "Waco/Ruby Ridge" and the obligatory  "I'll kill everyone because I'm Rambo" posts.

Ericthehun, Did you catch Ashcroft's CNN interview where the NEW FBI plan is to let the individual field offices do there own thing ,instead of going through Washington,this is just going to get better and better.Now the bozo SAC's will make the mistakes and Washington will have "plausible denial" .

And I picked a bad day to come across a bunch of JBT-defending "KillemallandletGodsortemout" cops.

They SHOT AN INNOCENT MAN IN THE FVCKING FACE.  This agent should HANG.  Period.

QS

So you are saying that shooting an innocent young man in the face is ok to do?  I won't say anything about any other events that might have happened, as I don't think they apply.  But you think that someone can shoot another person in the face and just get off without any consequences?  Oops, I blew your jaw off....sorry about that.  I don't care if the FBI agent was a police officer or not.  They are held (should be held) to the same level of responsibility as any other citizen.  In this case, the asshole shoots a kid in the face and gets away with it.  If you shot someone in the face, would you get away with it?  Very doubtful.  I hope that f!cker gets his ass sued so bad he has to sell his teeth to pay the kid.

Johninaustin, yeah we need the government, but do we need so much of it, I've got a three gallon flush tolit because CONGRESS has nothing better to do with their time . The government  needs to back off.

No, what he's saying is that it's okay to shoot an innocent person in the face if you're a cop and you're making an 'honest mistake'.

Hmmm...think that defense will work for a CCW'ed civilian?  Oops, Mr. District Attorney, I thought he was reaching for a gun, that's why I blew his teeth all over the street.

Right... this way to the gurney, please.

Think??  Don't you mean, "...repeat what everyone else here thinks"?  I am starting to see that thinking is not really welcomed.  Thinking doesn't always equate to being right but at least giving it a shot is a damn sight better than accepting what everyone else says at face value.  If I am wrong I can live with it.  Not even trying is what I won't accept.

Okay, Aggie... please define which points are debatable, and I'll be happy to engage in learned discourse with you.

1) An FBI agent shot an unarmed innocent civilian in the face.  True or False?

2) There will be no criminal consequences for this agent.  True or False?

3) If a citizen shot another citizen in these same circumstances, he would face criminal charges.  True or False?

I'm waiting.

Think about this then.  If you, as a CHL holder in Texas, shot someone in a similar circumstance would you get the same treatment as this FBI agent.  I don't think so.  It seems us "civilians" are held to a higher standard than those "entrusted" to "protect" us.  

As for the arguement that we were not there, so we can't judge.  What a crock.  I wasn't alive for WWII but I am pretty sure Hitler was a bastard.

This is the same tired horseshit we always get from LEO defenders.

[troll]

Thanks, [b]QuietShootr[/b], for putting it all in a nutshell for [b]ArmedAggie[/b]!

When he answers [u]those[/u] questions, we can then make our own assessments about the quality of his education.

I mean, c'mon, even Texas A & M can only do so much![:D]

Eric The(Anxious)Hun[>]:)]

I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting for a while...so I'm going to lunch.

Man, you guys are pretty hard-headed.  I would like for QuietShootr and Aggie1 to tell me at what point I disagreed that the agent(s) involved in this shooting shouldn't be held accountable?  At what point did I disagree that you or I would be crucified?  My disagreement is with the "fact" that this shooting somehow makes every single federal agent (I won't capitalize in case that makes some folks nervous) a blood-thirsty maniac.  It is the same to ask how every gun owner is a "freak" or "nut" because some gun owners are irresponsible or even criminal.  I agree that the FBI has a lot of problems.  I agree that some of those problems result in very tragic, and avoidable, situations.  It just bothers me to see so many people professing their desire to even kill any agent they should run across.  And you wonder how you get labelled.  Never mind the fact that most of them are probably honest, hard-working people with families just like you.  They do the job nobody else wants given the constraints and microscope they work under.  Yet some of you seem to think that simply being an agent makes you instantly guilty of all manner of crimes and deserving of beheading at dawn.  Man, never mind.

You need to be very careful of what you post.


"given the constraints and microscope they work under."

What microscope? If that was the case, how do things like Waco or Ruby Ridge happen?

So, uh, where are all those "honest, hard-working people with families just like you" at FBI, ATF, etc that should be coming out of the woodwork to condemn the action of these rogue agents??

No, [b]ArmedAggie[/b], we're not a hard crowd to get to know and like.

I have not seen on this thread any of the stuff that you complain of, at all.

We're likely the most law-abiding group on the Internet! We [u]have[/u] to be, the others don't![:D]

So who's advocating killing federal agents wholesale?

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

Please post where someone said they would kill an FBI agent.  Who said every federal agent is a freak/maniac?  Please provide these quotes, as I have read this entire thread and only you are making those claims.  Also, have you bothered to answer these three questions yet?  

1) An FBI agent shot an unarmed innocent civilian in the face. True or False?

2) There will be no criminal consequences for this agent. True or False?

3) If a citizen shot another citizen in these same circumstances, he would face criminal charges. True or False?

No you have not.

Actually I have answered the questions but not as concisely and directly as is apparently necessary.

1. True
2. True (so far, at least)
3. True

I wouldnt say that ALL federal agents are a-holes. I'll tell you that I've met some puffy chested loudmouth agents that do think they are better than us 'civilians' Putting themselves on a pedestal to look down their noses at those around them. Those are the particular agents I'm concerned about.

With the relaxed contraints they now have, I'm certainly leary of whos watching who. Think the 'thin blue line' so to speak doesnt exist - think again.

And as for the Ruby Ridge reference JohninAustin - damn right - what agency punishment did Horuichi receive? - nothing. Lets see if any of us ever make a 'mistake' in the defense of even our own homes.

Maybe in Texas, but here in NY, I'm not 'allowed' to shoot at an home intruder even if hes got MY stuff in his hands. The SOB can walk out of my house with whatever he wants unless I have been threatened. God forbid I put a slug in him....then I'm open to being sued by his family.

Now, is the federal agent who plugged the victim in the head feeling threatened, or by Randy Weavers wife? Gimme an f'n break.

And you are not in the least bit outraged at this.  Had this been your son, would it have made any difference to you?  Probably not.  Eunuchs can't have children, can they.

Please point out the statements that advocate killing all federal agents.  Please also point out the statement that claims every federal agent is a freak/maniac?  Those statements weren't made, but you heard them in your head for some reason....now that's interesting.

Edit:  How many innocent people have to get shot in the face before you find it disturbing?  Ten?  Fifty?  A thousand?

At first...I wasn't going to say anything...but your apparent lack of knowledge of the facts in this case forces me to jump in.

I live in Virginia...just a stone's throw from where this shooting took place.  The story was all over the print and TV news.  I noticed that the stories were generally unbiased.

Here is what was reported.  I'll leave it to you to decide the merits of indicting the FBI agent.

-The FBI was attempting to locate and apprehend bank robbers reportedly driving a car similar in color to the one the agent shot up.  They did not have a good description of the car.

-The exact number and gender of the [real] perps was unknown.

-The male victim was riding in the passenger seat.  His fiance was driving.

-The agents, then riding in an FBI car, approached the girl's car from the left rear side, while both vehicles were in motion.

-The FBI agents apparently tried to identify themselves and ordered the victim's car to pull over.  The victim and his fiance stated they saw the agents yelling at them and believed them to criminals, possibly carjackers.  Unknown whether or not the victims' car windows were up or down.

-When the agents' instructions were not followed, the agent in the passenger seat fired his rifle into the car in which the victim was riding.  The male passenger was struck in the face by at least one round from the .223cal carbine the agent was firing.  (I believe I heard the agent fired at least one or two three-round bursts...but I can't recall.)

-Attending physicians stated that the kid would live but would require years of reconstructive surgery to repair his facial structure, including jaws and teeth blown apart by the rifle rounds.

-The agent later claimed that he thought the victim was reaching for a weapon.  The victim stated he was trying to unlatch his seatbelt.

Imagine if one of us had done what that FBI agent did...do you for one second think we would not be (1) room temp...or, (2) a long term resident of a penal institution?

Strictly from a gun safety standpoint:  Where did the rest of the rounds go?  How many folks were put at risk by this agent capping off bursts of .223 from his rifle?  I think the assault occurred in a suburban area.

BTW...that agent has a "Robocop" track record.  Can't remember the details right now but I seem to remember he had been in another shooting that got him disciplined.

We don't know the "full story" but the FBI has a terrible record in the last few years of shooting citizens that don't roll over for them.  I'm not about to indict the entire force...but they would do well to go public with all the details of this and other shootings.  The FBI should also fire and prosecute those agents who commit crimes against their fellow citizens...not cover their six.

This smells bad.  Regardless of what the grand jury did...it still smells.

[soapbox]

Ok,  let's try one more time.  

Someone please give me a DIRECT link between this shooting and Waco/Ruby ridge.

Please give me a DIRECT link between this shooting and flush toilets.

Someone please give me a DIRECT quote where I said this guy was not culpable.

I'll save you the effort.  There isn't one.

Let me try this one more time.  

This is a stand alone event.  It has nothing to do with "Evil Govt". Govt cannot be good or evil.  it is a object.

Now,  the people in it can be either good or evil,  but label them all "Evil" simply because their paycheck comes from the same place is stupid.

As for the CHL/LEO stuff,  I can point out cases I was personally involved in where a CHL holder followed a unarmed car burglar, (of someone else's car) for three blocks and then shot him in the back three times with a .380. I can also point out the shooting of two unarmed people in a cab by a CHL holder.

They  got off.  The lawyers used many of the same methods you all are currently condemming.

Jrzy,  You implied that you would kill police/govt employees.

I call that a "rampage"  Perhaps "Murder"  or "Jihad" is more to your liking?

You know,  I'm following this exact debate on another board.  We're up to page 4.  No one has mentioned Waco,  No one has brought up "Evil govt"  or flush toilets. No one is boasting of "military training"  and Rambo fantasies,  and no one has been invited to New Jersey.

Currently it's almost universal condemnation of the agents actions, and the discussion is now centering around deadly force policy.

Imagine that.  An internet discussion involving issues actually related to the case.

That is most likely due to the fact it's a Police gun board.