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Posted: 8/23/2005 6:44:52 PM EDT
Guys you all have to check this web site out it is www.extremeshockusa.com. Lets have a disscussion about this ammo it looks very interesting and is what I have on order for my 9mm. Can someone link this (I'm a dummy and don't know how to do it).
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:46:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 6:48:51 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
The only thing "extreme" about it is the hype. If I were serious about self defense, I would not load that shit in my guns.

Woefully inadequate penetration and fragmentation is the result of this ammo. Inadequate penetration always a no-no when a selecting a good personal defense load. And fragmentation is ALWAYS a bad thing in handgun ammo.

Get yourself some Winchester 147 gr Ranger or 124 gr +P Gold Dot instead.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:48:53 PM EDT
I dont buy anything that has mall ninjas on it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:50:38 PM EDT
This stuff is the best ammo I have ever used.
It has a 97% one shot stop rating.
Buy this ammo - you WILL not regret it.
My job as a space shuttle door gunner requires that I have the best tool for the job.
It is the only ammo I will use in my duty weapon, the Shrike.

<­BR>
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:54:21 PM EDT
It is Teh Suxxor!!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:55:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 6:57:29 PM EDT by viper5194]
Ive never shot it, but I did maage to find this video clip of someone testing it they do seem to have a rather violent fragmentation.. The video is rather funny, well at least the naration..

www.stefanidefensivefirearms.com/ex_shock.asp
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:58:06 PM EDT
Thier webpage cracks me up.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:59:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 7:03:22 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
I think bright flashing colored lights make you stop and stare.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:01:48 PM EDT



This alone should make you run away, If all the pop ups on the web page don't first.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:05:24 PM EDT
I believe I've seen an ad for this in American Handgunner....I'd check it out if it wasn't expensive.

HH

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:08:40 PM EDT
Mall Ninja
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:09:23 PM EDT
Did you call GunTalk a few weeks ago? All hyped about how killer Glasers were because you saw it in a movie?
Matthew
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:10:44 PM EDT
Those guys look extremely GHEYY.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:20:22 PM EDT
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:24:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15:
Those guys look extremely GHEYY.



Check the eyes man, I think it's the same guy just different guns/gear.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:24:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 7:25:24 PM EDT by Tromatic]

Originally Posted By kevinR:
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.



You mean crap like what is found here? Testify, sucker! Jebus.

Dear Extreme Shock,
The other day with my 45, I thought I just clipped a guy in the leg. After they removed the lower half of his leg, these rounds have proved to me that they are the best ammo made. Even better than the Black Talons. I would like to keep all my agent's guns full with extreme shock rounds. I hope we can work it out. You make a quality product. I don't want to use anything else in my arsenal.
Bruce CEO Detective
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:26:20 PM EDT
Their advertising doesn't set off any bells and whistles? P.T. Barnum was right. You should check out the ultra super BMT ass-shot sniper rounds from Le Mas. Look closer at the pic on their web page. Anything look wrong to you?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:27:56 PM EDT

Dear Penthouse Extreme Shock,
The other day with my 45, I thought I just clipped a guy in the leg. After they removed the lower half of his leg, these rounds have proved to me that they are the best ammo made. Even better than the Black Talons. I would like to keep all my agent's guns full with extreme shock rounds. I hope we can work it out. You make a quality product. I don't want to use anything else in my arsenal.
Bruce CEO Detective



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:32:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kevinR:
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.



Don't forget a Range Report, and be very careful. It looks as if even a near-miss with this ammo is fatal. That airsoft is some dangerous shit. Seriously, you sent them money? Can Nigeria ship ammo to the US?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:32:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kevinR:
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.



Just exactly how are you going to "see how it does"?


I guess you could always shoot "mellons", though I think this might be more effective:



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:36:03 PM EDT
We are well familiar with this ammunition here. We've been having to shoot down the bullshit hype associated with it now for 2-3 years. The ammo is a GIMMICK. It sucks. It doesn't penetrate deep enough to be a reliable stopper.

In a handgun round, you want a bullet that holds together well and expands nicely....not a bullet that fragments. Again, this is just a gimmick to fool people who don't know anything about ammo.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:36:44 PM EDT
It looks as if one bullet is modeled after a Dune Sandworm, and the other appears to be some sort of nipple jewelry.
Matthew
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:37:37 PM EDT
Oh, to add something *useful*, go to the ammo oracle to learn something about ammo... plus you get to see a pic of the most beautiful woman on arfcom*:

<­BR>






* (sorry , ladies...)
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:41:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 7:42:49 PM EDT by Stove_Pipe]

Don't forget a Range Report, and be very careful. It looks as if even a near-miss with this ammo is fatal. That airsoft is some dangerous shit. Seriously, you sent them money? Can Nigeria ship ammo to the US?





Only if you send them your bank account number!

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:42:42 PM EDT
I have tried it and it works as advertised.

A friend of mine and myself bought 2 large hams. We then proceded to shoot one ham with .357 125grain hollow points and the other with .357 air freedom rounds. The air freedom round blew the ham into friggin pork hamburg. The hollow point caused damage but nowhere near as much. In addition, we placed the hams in front of about 6 - 1" thick vertically stacked pine boards. The 125 grain hollow-point passed through the ham and through the wood. The air freedom round blew the ham apart and I recovered a couple small fragments from the front board.

I now keep air freedom rounds in the 1911 in my bedroom. I feel more comfortable knowing that a bullet fired inside my house wont penetrate multiple walls and strike someone in another room.

I reccomend this ammo.

Handgunner mag did a write up a few months back. They also verified Extreme Shock's claims

I do have to say that the ad is a bit over the top.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:44:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrScaramanga:
I have tried it and it works as advertised.

A friend of mine and myself bought 2 large hams. We then proceded to shoot one ham with .357 125grain hollow points and the other with .357 air freedom rounds. The air freedom round blew the ham into friggin pork hamburg. The hollow point caused damage but nowhere near as much. In addition, we placed the hams in front of about 6 - 1" thick vertically stacked pine boards. The 125 grain hollow-point passed through the ham and through the wood. The air freedom round blew the ham apart and I recovered a couple small fragments from the front board.

I now keep air freedom rounds in the 1911 in my bedroom. I feel more comfortable knowing that a bullet fired inside my house wont penetrate multiple walls and strike someone in another room.

I reccomend this ammo.

Handgunner mag did a write up a few months back. They also verified Extreme Shock's claims

I do have to say that the ad is a bit over the top.




Thanks, I'll be shure to keep that in mind if I am attacked by hams!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:56:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 7:57:08 PM EDT by DScott]
Shucks, the 85 gr. 9mm "air freedom" rounds are ONLY $46.24 for 20 rounds.

Sure, I'd pay $2.30 EACH for magic beans bullets.

Might have to sell the double-wide first, though...
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:02:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:
Shucks, the 85 gr. 9mm "air freedom" rounds are ONLY $46.24 for 20 rounds.

Sure, I'd pay $2.30 EACH for magic beans bullets.

Might have to sell the double-wide first, though...



Betcha they are the shiznit with your Air Jordans. It does look like they stuffed a basketball in the nose of that thing, or at least a nerf ball.
Matthew
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:03:13 PM EDT
I was guessing that a cured 15 lb ham had about the same consistency/density as a human chest. This was a bone in ham, not a canned ham.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:08:04 PM EDT
From teir own wewb site:



An AFR round has completely dumped its entire energy in the first 7", completely disintigrating the ballistic gelatin
Lack of penetration


]

A .45 caliber projectile has a wound trauma cavity the entire diameter of the ballistic gelatin block, splitting the top and sides
Notice hoe they emphasise the temporary wound channel





A wound channel 200x the size of the entry projectile. A reduced velocity SRT round blows a 7" diameter cavity in ballistic clay.
why the switch to clay? Hmmm




The 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round

Wow, a bullet killed a hog!!!!!!!!!!!!!


not to mention:



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:10:02 PM EDT

I was guessing that a cured 15 lb ham had about the same consistency/density as a human chest. This was a bone in ham, not a canned ham.


Those damned 15 lb cured terrorists!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:11:39 PM EDT
Anything "Extreme".... isn't.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:12:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

Dear Penthouse Extreme Shock,
The other day with my 45, I thought I just clipped a guy in the leg. After they removed the lower half of his leg, these rounds have proved to me that they are the best ammo made. Even better than the Black Talons. I would like to keep all my agent's guns full with extreme shock rounds. I hope we can work it out. You make a quality product. I don't want to use anything else in my arsenal.
Bruce CEO Detective






I wish they had a " I laughed so hard I pissed myself" animation...
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:20:33 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]

Originally Posted By MrScaramanga:
I was guessing that a cured 15 lb ham had about the same consistency/density as a human chest. This was a bone in ham, not a canned ham.



If it were, don't you think the FBI and other professionals who's LIVES depend on ammo would be using it for testing instead of expensive, time consuming to make 10% ballistic gelatin?

Don't guess. Don't assume.

There's a reason why they use gel and not cured hams. Hint, the gel is closer to human than the ham.

BTW, a 15 lb ham doesn't do a very good job of representing a 200 lb man, I'm sorry.

Extreme Shock ammo IS NOT adequate for self defense. On human size attackers, you need a round capable of penetrating 12" at minimum. The 7" penetration of Extreme Shock is far below that requirement, a requirement set by the FBI.

Recommending ammo should be left to the experts. Especially when lives hang in the balance. Recommending Extreme Shock ammo is a horrible recommendation.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:20:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:31:02 PM EDT by XGunBunny]
Shootings the melons and water jugs is nice, but not really a good test for a bullet.

Shooting a 505 lb hog is a different thing entirely. Taking for granted that they didn't tie it to a tree and shoot it in the head from 10 ft away. If it was a 15 or 20 yd shot to the shoulder, or ribs, and that is how they killed the hog, then that is pretty damn good. I know a bunch of guys that have shot hogs, and I was able to shoot one when I was stationed in Germany. I used a 30-06 with a 180 gr bullet to kill the hog, shot just behind the front shoulder from 60 yds, and he ran a good 50 yds before he died. So if a 9mm handgun round can drop a 505 lb hog, then it should be good enough to stop a 180 lb man.

<edited for grammar errors>

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:25:05 PM EDT
My cousin in Texas shot a hog half that size with his AR. He showed me the video. A 55 grain bullet right between the eyes and the monster kept running for almost 50 yards. If their claims are true I would trust the ammo. Hogs are tough suckers.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:25:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XGunBunny:
Shootings the melons and water jugs is nice, but not really a good test for a bullet.

Shooting a 505 lb hog is a different thing entirely. Taking for granted that they didn't tie it to a tree and shoot it in the head from 10 ft away. If it was a 15 yd or 20 yd shot to the shoulder, or ribs, and that is how they killed the hog, then that is pretty damn good. I know a bunch of guys that have shot hogs, and I was able to shoot one when I was stationed in Germany. I used a 30-06 with a 180 gr bullet to kill the hog, shot just behind the front shoulder from 60 yds, and he ran a good 50 yds after before he died. So if a 9mm handgun round can drop a 505 lb hog, then it should be good enough to stop a 180 lb man.




Then this ammo should be banned immediately. After all, according to a user, it's even better than Black Talon, and I heard only terrorists use Black Talon. I hope they don't find out about this WMD of the ammo world.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:29:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:
www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg


This alone should make you run away, If all the pop ups on the web page don't first.



either that is triplets or 1 of the fugliest wannabe's ive ever seen.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:31:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:36:25 PM EDT by MrScaramanga]
Thanks for the hint Charging handle, now I know about ballistics gel. But at the same time, flesh is flesh and I am having a hard time figuring out why you are comparing weights . If you cut a section from a human chest about the same size as the ham I bet it would be very close in weight.

In addition, when defending yourself in an indoor environment I would think that overpenetration would be just as important as sufficient penetration. Many crackheads are thinner in the chest area than 12" which means that bullet is still traveling somewhere as it exits them, like through the wall and into the kid's room.

I will admit that I am no expert, but from what I have seen with my own eyes I will continue to keep my .45 loaded with this ammo.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:32:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:
www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg


This alone should make you run away, If all the pop ups on the web page don't first.



either that is triplets or 1 of the fugliest wannabe's ive ever seen.



What do you mean, "wannabe"? It says right there on his gear "Agent". Jeez, how much proof do you need?

Matthew
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:33:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrScaramanga:
Thanks for the hint Charging handle, now I know about ballistics gel. But at the same time, flesh is flesh and I am having a hard time figuring out why you are comparing weights . If you cut a section from a human chest about the same size as the ham I bet it would be very close in weight.



Mmmmm, Kevin Bacon.

Matthew
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:43:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:46:58 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

An AFR round has completely dumped its entire energy in the first 7", completely disintigrating the ballistic gelatin



ENERGY DUMP?





first 7"


Lack of penetration



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:49:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:52:17 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]

Originally Posted By MrScaramanga:
Thanks for the hint Charging handle, now I know about ballistics gel. But at the same time, flesh is flesh and I am having a hard time figuring out why you are comparing weights . If you cut a section from a human chest about the same size as the ham I bet it would be very close in weight.



You are assuming that ham and human flesh are comparable. They are not.

Secondly, you are assuming that you're gonna have a straight in shot to the chest. What happens if you're facing an adversary at an angle and your bullet will have to traverse the upper arm, all the way across half the chest and then into the center where the heart and major blood bearing vessels are? Or what if an arm is in the path of the bullet, adding to the overall penetration depth you'll need?

Don't plan for the best case scenarios. Plan for the worst. And remember Murphy's Law. It always presents itself at the worst of times.


In addition, when defending yourself in an indoor environment I would think that overpenetration would be just as important as sufficient penetration. Many crackheads are thinner in the chest area than 12" which means that bullet is still traveling somewhere as it exits them, like through the wall and into the kid's room.


If it comes to the issue of having a bullet that only penetrates 7" max or one that penetrates 12", I'll take the 12 everytime. When defending your home, set up kill zones. Use your bedroom for cover and make the hallway your kill zone. Don't let the intruder ever get into or beside your kid's room to begin with.

Having a bullet that penetrates adequately should reduce the need for follow up shots as well vs a poorly penetrating bullet. The less lead you have flying around, the better.

And, the faster you can stop the aggressor, the less danger to your family. Using an underpenetrating load means the attacker has a better chance of staying alive and conscious longer. That's why you want a bullet that will penetrate deep enough to rupture deep internal blood carrying vessels so the bastard will bleed out as soon as possible, regardless of the angle of the shot. Other than a shot to the brain or one that hits the spine (CNS hits), the only way to get a threat to stop is making them bleed out as quickly as possible. A deeper penetrating load has a higher chance of making that happen as opposed to a shallow penetrating one.

BTW, in regard to hogs, my grandfather always used a .22 short to take them when he raised them on his farm. He'd shoot them between the eyes and they were usually DRT (dead right there). However, would you want a .22 short for self defense? Also, an attacker meaning you serious harm isn't going to stand still and present you with a perfect between the eyes shot at him. If he's even slightly intelligent, he will be moving and using cover.

Again, I don't mean to come off as arrogant, but don't use gun magazines, internet myths or unscientific data for determining ammo you are depending on for survival. Those sources are simply poor ones.

For good data, from people who's profession is to test ammo, give the "Terminal Effects" forum a read:

www.tacticalforums.com

Pay special attention to the posts from Dr. Gary Roberts. He knows his stuff.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:55:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:03:43 PM EDT by ZW17]

Originally Posted By MrScaramanga:
Thanks for the hint Charging handle, now I know about ballistics gel. But at the same time, flesh is flesh and I am having a hard time figuring out why you are comparing weights . If you cut a section from a human chest about the same size as the ham I bet it would be very close in weight.

In addition, when defending yourself in an indoor environment I would think that overpenetration would be just as important as sufficient penetration. Many crackheads are thinner in the chest area than 12" which means that bullet is still traveling somewhere as it exits them, like through the wall and into the kid's room.

I will admit that I am no expert, but from what I have seen with my own eyes I will continue to keep my .45 loaded with this ammo.



You need to listen and learn. The people here know what they are talking about. I mean years and years of info have been compiled to get this info, not shhoting hams and second hand stories of hogs.

Seriously, pay attention, your life or the lives of loved ones may depend on it one day.

Start with reading the Ammo-Oracle.com. You will thank me later.

ETA: Fact: According to the FBI the average human torso is 9 inches front to back.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:05:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:11:46 PM EDT by EPOCH96]
A really good read on wound ballastics

Link

Some interesting quotes for the lazy bastards...


"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."


nothing complicated about that, it's just human physiology


"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume....

This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

"Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."



I could read about this for hours but then again, I am a dork about stuff like this...


"Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."


Personally, I put more value into shot placement due to studies like these. Two to the chest, one to the head. And exit wounds are your friends

EPOCH

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:17:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kevinR:
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.



No offense man, but the makers of this ammo learned something from PT Barnum and are exploiting it.

It's a joke. Please don't use your "extreme, violent, and 97% of the time instant death shock ammo" for serious applications.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:10:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By kevinR:
Come on guys surely you havent even read the info on their site. I was hopeing to see if anyone here actually has some of it and used it (on people mellons whatever). I mean hell if the ammo does exactally what it is supposed to do (according to them) that is some wicked shit no?? Seriously read a little more. I bought 2 boxes of it just for kicks to see how it does. If it turns out to be nothing but hype then I'll go back to the federal hydrashocks.



No offense man, but the makers of this ammo learned something from PT Barnum and are exploiting it.

It's a joke. Please don't use your "extreme, violent, and 97% of the time instant death shock ammo" for serious applications.



Sometimes, though, those mellons just need killin'...
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:09:35 AM EDT
I think they used the same speaker in that video that I had on some of my chemistry videos.

Kinda put me to sleep while watching mellons being shot. Hmmm....Odd
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:42:29 AM EDT
sorry....too expensive for me too try

i'll stick with the tried and true Federal Hydra-Shoks, Winchester silvertips, Cor-Bons, and now Speer Gold Dot and the next gen Federal stuff

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:58:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 12:40:14 PM EDT by AK_Mike]

Originally Posted By XGunBunny:
So if a 9mm handgun round can drop a 505 lb hog, then it should be good enough to stop a 180 lb man.



Who said the hog "dropped"? Dropped and stopped are different things. I know a guy who hunts polar bears with a 22LR, I shit you not. Sure, eventually it "drops" from bleedout, but how long do you want to give a man to die while he is shooting at you? Temporary cavities and "energy dumps" mean NOTHING (do your research and learn why, some of which is covered above). Only shots to the CNS will "stop" your target cold before he can fill you full of holes. All it would take is an arm in the way to stop your 7" penetration, and when the dude is shooting at you, his arms are directly in the way for torso shots. There is a reason why all serious organizations have a deep penetration requirement, look into it. Killing a man, and stopping a man are two different things, you need to stop him immediately, not just cause him to eventually die.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:03:50 AM EDT
I wanna know how they tested the 97% thing. I've seen hogs take 7mm rounds and keep going. I don't buy for one fucking second that sumbitch dropped instantly from any 9mm round, much less this one.
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