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Posted: 10/1/2004 6:40:59 AM EST
Okay, sometime in the future... our military is defeated and the leadership in Washington DC has been decapitaded. Now a coalition of the victors is set to come in and occupy our country. But wait, 100,000,000 armed Americans are forming themselves in militias and partisan groups. Do you think the US could be invaded and sucessfully occupied? Certian parts would be easiler to occupy and control given the nature of the locals and the lack of firearms...

discuss...

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:44:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:
Do you think the US could be invaded and sucessfully occupied?

discuss...




NO
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:46:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dukota:

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:
Do you think the US could be invaded and sucessfully occupied?

discuss...




NO



Not in my lifetime.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:46:27 AM EST
no way at all.

even those that don't have guns would find them.

freedom is more important to us than religous/racial/economic differences.

and not just the by-word freedom, but actual do what you want as long as you're not hurting anyone else freedom.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:47:36 AM EST
If they were all ninja's they'd have a chance. Otherwise, even a zombie army would fail in an occupation attempt. Pirates? Don't make me laugh.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:48:04 AM EST
As far as what I would do,

Find a leader or become one, organize into groups depending on armament and skill and proceed to at least disrupt enemy action.

Organize defence for the "homebase" teach everyone that can hold a rifle to shoot, and never stop until we can.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:48:48 AM EST
Have another beer.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:48:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By _Ugly_:
If they were all ninja's they'd have a chance. Otherwise, even a zombie army would fail in an occupation attempt. Pirates? Don't make me laugh.



I think you are seriously underestimating the pirate faction. They ARRRRRRRR not a force to be taken lightly.

bad humor sorry.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:49:33 AM EST
I believe Yamamoto said something along the lines of...

'A rifle behind every blade of grass...'

It could be done, but no without killing most of the population of the US...
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:53:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:54:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 6:57:44 AM EST by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:57:04 AM EST
They could take over California, and nobody in any of the free states would give a damn as long as the invaders kept exporting Napa wine and central valley rice.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:04:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:11:21 AM EST by DamageInc]
That fellow at Radio Shack said I was mad! MAAADDDD! Well who's mad now!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, wrong thread.

If this senario were real, I don't see myself as being in any type of large, organized 'militia' or such thing. I would work far better in a small group of maybe 5-6. However, I can't see the occupation of American soil ever happening.

The man who taught me to shoot when I was 11, way back in 1980, told me the population is armed so that if the military is ever defeated, no army could ever occupy the United Stated. It would not be worth it. It would be an impossible task. Unless, of course, Kerry is elected next month...
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:07:24 AM EST
Red Dawn!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:08:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By ASUsax:
I believe Yamamoto said something along the lines of...

'A rifle behind every blade of grass...'

It could be done, but no without killing most of the population of the US...



Bingo...I was thinking the same thing...

Of course we are being invaded....look to the Southwest .......everyday we being overrun...My state saw a 12% increase in Hispanics....

It's time to mine the border....
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:10:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:15:36 AM EST
Capture the enemy combatants, behead them and record it on video, play beheading video on pirate TV.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:15:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
It would be funny when/if they made their way to Texas.



Don't hold your breath legs, we Virginians would keepum from evn making landfall!

Maryland and DC residents on the other hand might invite them ashore!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:21:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sniper_408:

Maryland and DC residents on the other hand might invite them ashore!



Ahh Yeah sure - considering all the AR-15 shooters here in MD... (and at least we have a an AR manufacturer )

Can't trust them Virginians to save our bacon - last war of invastion they fought they lost!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:24:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
By the time it came to that, you must acknowledge the fact that the enemy would be severely crippled. It wouldn't take more than 6 months to a year to defeat the invaders. Arms and heavy weaponry would be readily available to all citizens.

Do you know the original reason the VFW was formed? To be a veteran contingency force. In the spirit of that, you would trained, expert civilians operating contemporary weapon systems.




Unfortunately, I disagree. If the military is defeated and ineffective, and the government is decapitated our country would be total chaos. They could easily invade and occupy, with a few minor scirmishes from unorganized civillians and take control of all logistics and services that the populace relies on to survive. Everything would come to a halt. The rationing of needed supplies would cause the vast majority of people to be subserviant to the occupying force for their mere existence.

There would no doubt be small cells of individuals that would try to organize and resist. They would be immediately dealt with by the force. Individuals would turn in their armed neighbors in exchange for a loaf of bread for their families. There would be no jobs to go to, no banking, no business, no utilities, nothing except what little the force would give out. They would dole out these services to ones who become sympathic to their cause. Much like the Stockholm syndrome.

After the initial shock, I think it would become possible to better organize and recruit new individuals into a resistance fold and eventually be successful in a coup. But it would take a long time.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:27:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
The surrender that the invader would be forced to agrre to, would include them taking ownership of California and DC.



Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:29:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:31:08 AM EST
Cali, NY, and all other states would be easier, but between myself and my small group of friends and family we could arm at least 300 people successfully or well arm and sustain 75 friends to protect the young and elderly among us from any incursion apon our newly found freedom.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:33:20 AM EST
Keep in mind that any force capable of defeated our military and toppling our government would be WELL armed and organized. They won't be a rag-tag group with AK's.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:34:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
By the time it came to that, you must acknowledge the fact that the enemy would be severely crippled. It wouldn't take more than 6 months to a year to defeat the invaders. Arms and heavy weaponry would be readily available to all citizens.

Do you know the original reason the VFW was formed? To be a veteran contingency force. In the spirit of that, you would trained, expert civilians operating contemporary weapon systems.




Unfortunately, I disagree. If the military is defeated and ineffective, and the government is decapitated our country would be total chaos. They could easily invade and occupy, with a few minor scirmishes from unorganized civillians and take control of all logistics and services that the populace relies on to survive. Everything would come to a halt. The rationing of needed supplies would cause the vast majority of people to be subserviant to the occupying force for their mere existence.

There would no doubt be small cells of individuals that would try to organize and resist. They would be immediately dealt with by the force. Individuals would turn in their armed neighbors in exchange for a loaf of bread for their families. There would be no jobs to go to, no banking, no business, no utilities, nothing except what little the force would give out. They would dole out these services to ones who become sympathic to their cause. Much like the Stockholm syndrome.

After the initial shock, I think it would become possible to better organize and recruit new individuals into a resistance fold and eventually be successful in a coup. But it would take a long time.



the states would still be intact. As for services they are provided for by private enterprise not government. Any invading force would want to establish stability. Either they feed us or we feed ourselves. I think they'll encourage the latter. Besides how will the invaders be able to determine friend from foe? Think of Viet-Nam X 10,000 or so. How many soldiers would you need to effectively control the uncontrollable yanks. Not to mention the hordes of armed yanks going into Canada and Mexico stirring up trouble there too. A major headache for anyone foolish enough to invade.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:36:51 AM EST
I can't recall the editorialist's name, but someone who wrote articles in the Shotgun News printed a series on how to operate effectively in this type of scenario. The only difference was that his listed enemy were UN troops.

Small unit tactics were the key to disruption and demoralization.

Shoot, move, and communicate.

On a side note: Anyone who even entertains the idea that Texas could be overtaken has been smoking crack.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:37:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

the states would still be intact. As for services they are provided for by private enterprise not government. Any invading force would want to establish stability. Either they feed us or we feed ourselves. I think they'll encourage the latter. Besides how will the invaders be able to determine friend from foe? Think of Viet-Nam X 10,000 or so. How many soldiers would you need to effectively control the uncontrollable yanks. Not to mention the hordes of armed yanks going into Canada and Mexico stirring up trouble there too. A major headache for anyone foolish enough to invade.




The states would not be intact and private enterprise can't continue to operate without gas, supply, distribution, compensation and free and unrestricted travel.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:42:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:49:53 AM EST by mac130]
Are we talking about the Dems revolting after Bush wins again?

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:42:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

the states would still be intact. As for services they are provided for by private enterprise not government. Any invading force would want to establish stability. Either they feed us or we feed ourselves. I think they'll encourage the latter. Besides how will the invaders be able to determine friend from foe? Think of Viet-Nam X 10,000 or so. How many soldiers would you need to effectively control the uncontrollable yanks. Not to mention the hordes of armed yanks going into Canada and Mexico stirring up trouble there too. A major headache for anyone foolish enough to invade.




The states would not be intact and private enterprise can't continue to operate without gas, supply, distribution, compensation and free and unrestricted travel.



why wouldn't the states be intact? as for private enterprise,ever hear of smuggling? the black market? I'll put my faith in the resourcefullness of the American people. As for unrestricted travel. who's going to monitor the millions of miles of back roads, highways ect?

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:47:18 AM EST
RDS.

Survival Forum regulars know what this means.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:56:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

the states would still be intact. As for services they are provided for by private enterprise not government. Any invading force would want to establish stability. Either they feed us or we feed ourselves. I think they'll encourage the latter. Besides how will the invaders be able to determine friend from foe? Think of Viet-Nam X 10,000 or so. How many soldiers would you need to effectively control the uncontrollable yanks. Not to mention the hordes of armed yanks going into Canada and Mexico stirring up trouble there too. A major headache for anyone foolish enough to invade.




The states would not be intact and private enterprise can't continue to operate without gas, supply, distribution, compensation and free and unrestricted travel.



why wouldn't the states be intact? as for private enterprise,ever hear of smuggling? the black market? I'll put my faith in the resourcefullness of the American people. As for unrestricted travel. who's going to monitor the millions of miles of back roads, highways ect?




You're not getting it. Any force capable of putting down our military and government would not only have all the weapons and forces availible to them to occupy, but also the smarts to destroy major cities and infrastructure during the initial occupation. They won't just show up in row boats and start a small arms shooting war. The scenario presented was that there is NO military or national government. Without those resources it will not be business as usual in private enterprise. No one is going to be showing up for work.

The vast majority of this country has become soft. They have the same characteristics as electricity or water, they will follow the path of least resistance. Do you actually think that a completely unorganized group of armed citizens, without the means of resupply, logistics and command and control, is going to be more effective against a force that just defeated our entire military?

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:19:43 AM EST
Unfrotunately TeuffelHunden1775 is pretty much correct. Look at all the failed countries in South America, Asia, and Africa: they have plenty of moxy, but without real infrastructure and a plan for a 1st world economy people will only worry "about the children" and will do whatever the occupiers want to get by. The mindset of "it won't happen to me" will prevail and many people will do what they are told to receive basic necissities convincing themselves that they won't be hurt if they cooperate. A problem no one has mentioned is a ranking structure. The militia groups provide an interesting scenario; I'm not comparing us to militia groups, but it is the best example I can come up with for this example. In militia groups there are no PVTs - everyone is a LT or a CAPT; there might be a few SGTs, but there are no PVTs. As DamageInc mentioned, we could do it with small bands of 5-6 doing little SPECOPS-like raids, but it would take a long time and hopefully people like us could provide our 'extra' weapons and training to people willing to fight, but have no weapons of their own. I ain't gonna' be no PVT!

Don't flame me for the above because I will fight to the death and then some, but repelling an invading army won't be easy. Now if Kerry wins and strips down the military even more than Clinton then the aforementioned Operation Row Boat could occur, but would be easily defeated.




Originally Posted By mac130:
Are we talking about the Dems revolting after Bush wins again?


If we had to put them down what would we do after lunch?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:24:44 AM EST
I only wish we had 100,000,000 armed people in the Country. (We don't)
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:29:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bucko:
Unfrotunately TeuffelHunden1775 is pretty much correct. Look at all the failed countries in South America, Asia, and Africa: they have plenty of moxy, but without real infrastructure and a plan for a 1st world economy people will only worry "about the children" and will do whatever the occupiers want to get by. The mindset of "it won't happen to me" will prevail and many people will do what they are told to receive basic necissities convincing themselves that they won't be hurt if they cooperate. A problem no one has mentioned is a ranking structure. The militia groups provide an interesting scenario; I'm not comparing us to militia groups, but it is the best example I can come up with for this example. In militia groups there are no PVTs - everyone is a LT or a CAPT; there might be a few SGTs, but there are no PVTs. As DamageInc mentioned, we could do it with small bands of 5-6 doing little SPECOPS-like raids, but it would take a long time and hopefully people like us could provide our 'extra' weapons and training to people willing to fight, but have no weapons of their own. I ain't gonna' be no PVT!

Don't flame me for the above because I will fight to the death and then some, but repelling an invading army won't be easy. Now if Kerry wins and strips down the military even more than Clinton then the aforementioned Operation Row Boat could occur, but would be easily defeated.




Originally Posted By mac130:
Are we talking about the Dems revolting after Bush wins again?


If we had to put them down what would we do after lunch?



Bucko you're right on. And, you pointed out a very important item. In an unorganized militia, with no contractual agreement with a government body, no one is going to want to be the "PVT". The first time a firefight occurs, and many of the "grunts" see their first dead body, whatever "fight" they had in them will be gone and they'll be headed back to their families and the bread line.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:50:03 AM EST
Midwesterners mostly worry that you guys near the coasts won't leave any for us; we want to help too!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:53:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 8:57:16 AM EST by RS_Coyote]
How about we put aside our military being defeated and the leadership in Washington DC being decapitated.

And say a foreign country inserts 10 or more well trained, unarmed troops in civilian clothes in each major city around the USofA. First they will have to steal or buy some weapons. Should not be hard being there is probably a gun in every third house. Or they could stop by K-Mart and pick up a kitchen knife or even rob a gun store would be easy. They are ordered to cause chaos, snipe us and in general terrorize us with our own weapons. They could hi-jack HAZ-MAT trucks and blow them up. I don't think it would take long before they turned this country upside down. Look at what happens when one of our own criminals did the D.C. sniping. And mutiply that by about 2-300 hundred. And what a hand full did on 9/11. Sure we may get them. But how long would it take? They could do one hell of a lot of damage in the mean time to the point every thing could come to a halt.

I can tell you if I were long haul trucking and that kind of thing was going on I would go home. Now if every other trucker went home. There would be a lot of starving people. And then some people would probably turn on each other. Get the point? I believe this country is a lot more venerable than we want to believe. Just a thought and my two cents. If I'm wrong so be it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:59:44 AM EST
Bullshit times two, do you guys have any idea what you are talking about? Right now the best trained military and police force in the world is trying to keep some bubba's from smoking weed. Do you think anybody missed their tokes today? We had outright bloody warfare during prohibition and the feds stills couldn't stop some good ole georgia boys. The american people have a dedicated history of fighting back. Don't think that it is just gone away in the last thirty years. It is still here. This ain't some furrin country where the gestapo runs thing, this is the god-damned United States of America and if any wants to give it a swing then they better start in New York or DC. The south ain't going to put up with that shit.
And take a look at the power grid map, Texas will still be well-lit when the rest of you are huddled in the dark somewhere.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:01:21 AM EST
Any invader would face the most technically capable, most mobile, and most well-supplied guerilla force ever to take up arms. It would be quite a show, but the outcome would never be in doubt. Ops
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:03:04 AM EST
It depends upon how ruthless and well equipped these invaders are.

1. If they have defeated our military and taken over the capitol, then I feel it is safe to say they are very well equipped and have sea and air superiority and have nuke capability along with some high tech satellites and gadgets. Also they have us pretty much surrounded.. No???

2. If they have air and sea superiorty and are really RUTHLESS ( I think the fundementalists are), they can just stand off and bomb the crap out of our population centers and food production centers (easily found by satelite and thermal imaging) and kill / starve the entire populace including every man woman and child without losing hardly anyone.

3. Walk in and mop up (read kill) the stragglers and repopulated with friendlies.

We are not that ruthless, but they might be. Never underestimate the enemy.

Think again Exlax.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:04:40 AM EST
Pick up and move back to MS and defend the homestate until I expended the last round or was killed.

Outcome be damned, I'm not going down or bending to the rule of another nation without a fight.


Wolverines!!!!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:12:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By RS_Coyote:
How about we put aside our military being defeated and the leadership in Washington DC being decapitated.

And say a foreign country inserts 10 or more well trained, unarmed troops in civilian clothes in each major city around the USofA. First they will have to steal or buy some weapons. Should not be hard being there is probably a gun in every third house. Or they could stop by K-Mart and pick up a kitchen knife or even rob a gun store would be easy. They are ordered to cause chaos, snipe us and in general terrorize us with our own weapons. They could hi-jack HAZ-MAT trucks and blow them up. I don't think it would take long before they turned this country upside down. Look at what happens when one of our own criminals did the D.C. sniping. And mutiply that by about 2-300 hundred. And what a hand full did on 9/11. Sure we may get them. But how long would it take? They could do one hell of a lot of damage in the mean time to the point every thing could come to a halt.

I can tell you if I were long haul trucking and that kind of thing was going on I would go home. Now if every other trucker went home. There would be a lot of starving people. And then some people would probably turn on each other. Get the point? I believe this country is a lot more venerable than we want to believe. Just a thought and my two cents. If I'm wrong so be it.



This is a much more plausible scenario than the one listed. However, with everything intact, those actions would be met with the full blunt of local, state and federal law enforcement. Just as it did in D.C. and other places.

I think that if it happened in multiple places at once, as you suggested in this scenario, there would be a sudden concern and probable disruption in over-the-road distribution and stretching of law enforement assets. I believe that as the "attacks" continued and with law enforcement being stretched to their limits that civillians would get invovled. That, in and of itself, would also create a problem with the agencies charged with the responsiblity of protection. I.E. not knowing who's friendly and who's not. I also believe that problem would be short lived and the agencies and the public would figure out how to work together.

The main problem would lie in the possibilty of the terrorist having the access and the means of mass disruption or mass destruction. Such as chemical and biological warfare or disruption and control of key infrastructure.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:16:16 AM EST
the best means of resistance (assuming a massively armed and skilled occupying force) would be to "collaborate" with the invaders and attack them from the inside.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:17:47 AM EST
we invaded Iraq in how many days? And you think any country in the world would have a chance at an invasion?

we fight hard in some 3rd world shithole amagine how hard you would fight if they were at your doorstep.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:48:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By mac130:
Are we talking about the Dems revolting after Bush wins again?




The dems are pretty damn revolting as is.. They'll get WORSE??

As for the ease of taking the coastal states.. PA guys gear up, they already got us here in NJ. Not quite sure who "they" are, but whoever they are they hate guns and drive like shit. The chair is against the wall.. Send ammo and postbans!!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:50:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I can't recall the editorialist's name, but someone who wrote articles in the Shotgun News printed a series on how to operate effectively in this type of scenario. The only difference was that his listed enemy were UN troops.

Small unit tactics were the key to disruption and demoralization.

Shoot, move, and communicate.



Palo,
That would be Fred's columns - he sells M-14 stocks & other M14 related gear.

Some of what he says makes sense - but his idea of 500M firefight with iron sights are pretty silly.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:53:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:53:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
It would be funny when/if they made their way to Texas.




"Komrade! Our plan for invading the United States is a three-pronged approach. We will make amphibious assaults in the vicinity of Houston and Corpus Christi. We will also launch an overland invasion through El Paso."

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:09:27 AM EST
Little Switzerland remained uninvaded for 500 years because of it's militia. Even Hitler, though felt confident to invade the USSR didn't want to expose his troops to the armed citizens of Switzerland. Since the number of Armed Americans will dwarf any army, the question for that army is how many of it's soldiers are they prepared to loose? Viet-Nam proved that even a small nation of peseants can quadmire a superpower.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:15:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:
Little Switzerland remained uninvaded for 500 years because of it's militia. Even Hitler, though felt confident to invade the USSR didn't want to expose his troops to the armed citizens of Switzerland. Since the number of Armed Americans will dwarf any army, the question for that army is how many of it's soldiers are they prepared to loose? Viet-Nam proved that even a small nation of peseants can quadmire a superpower.



A couple of problems with that. We are not Viet Nam, we have a vast expanse of land not under a triple canopy jungle, the vast majority of our population is no longer armed with proficient weapons nor is it use to war or self sufficiencey.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:37:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:

On a side note: Anyone who even entertains the idea that Texas could be overtaken has been smoking crack.





Fuckin-A.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:49:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
I only wish we had 100,000,000 armed people in the Country. (We don't)



Estimates put it at around 120,000,000 adults own firearms in the US.

Who was it... Yamamoto who in WWII said it:

"You cannot invade mainland America, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
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