continue posting your feelings on evolution here.

tc6969...you posted the wrong link in the other 2 threads...the link is to some movie thread.

You need to do a little study of the dead sea scrolls. Most of them have been released to the public for a price, and they show that the Bible we read today, comes directly from these documents written over 1700 years ago. Now, there are no other writings of humans that have survived that long, that have not been altered, or, missing many parts. If that does not show some divine intervention............

Quoted: BTT

tc6969, all of your lock messages say to continue the discussion in TheMacallan's Shaun of the Dead thread.

//I had this all typed out when the last thread broke, then they locked my new thread and posted a link to a thread about some movie. dammit I want to get my .02 in!

First off, what we call the Bible was in origin a collection of various texts and scrolls in various languages and eventually collected and edited for content. All of these were written by humans and as with every other thing created by humans, is prone to error and/or misunderstanding.

I need only to point to the Koran to prove this.


Secondly, you can read just about anything you want into the bible. UFO guys point to evidence of ETs, Numerologists look for codes, Homosexuals have webpages full of quotes from the Bible supporting their gayness, while others have webpages full of quotes purporting the opposite. According to Weekly World News, the Mormons, or Jehovas's Witnesses the end of the world is/was near/last week/next month.

In the end it's all just in how you interpret it.

Evolution and creationism are two theories. They do not cancel eachother out nor do they oppose eachother. The only "theory" that opposes creationism is Atheism. Unless of course you want to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible (7 days and all that)

The scientific version of the history of the Universe is thus:

1. Big Bang (Basic Universe created out of nothing)
2. Stars born
3. Planets made
4. Life appears
A. Plants/Trees
B. Critters

The big question is wether Humans evolved from single celled organisms over millions of years or if Adam was molded from dirt while Eve grew out of his rib. If you want to believe in a literal word for word translation of the Bible, nothing good will come of it. In fact, you're probably already condemed to hell. (Reread Kings, Deuteronomy, and Numbers if you don't believe me)

If you're more flexible, let's move on.

We know that living things are evolving. Viruses are getting stronger, people are getting taller, some animals use tools (no, not your screwdriver) etc. We've traced the mitochondria in our DNA to a species that lived about a 100,000 years ago. We know the Dinosaurs died out a few million years ago, while an enterprising species of furbearers managed to survive.

So the question becomes a philosophical one.

Again discarding a literal translation we have to ask ourselves:

1. What constitues God's "Image" in which he made us?

I find it hard to belive that it's of a hairy two-legged creature that can make a variety of strange noises out of both ends. To me it's more likely a conciousness that can effect changes on the world and lesser animals around us - which describes us quite well.


2. What is "time" to God?

Answer: Nothing. The few million years it took for us to crawl out of the mud is nothing to an all-seeing omnipotent being who preceeded the Universe. In all likelyhood He/She's got a hundred billion trillion other sheep around the Universe and knows us all by name. What seems like a long time to us doesn't even register on that scale.


So in conclusion Evolution can peacefully exist with non-literal Creationism.

I thought  tc6969's was playing a little joke on us.

Quoted: You need to do a little study of the dead sea scrolls. Most of them have been released to the public for a price, and they show that the Bible we read today, comes directly from these documents written over 1700 years ago. Now, there are no other writings of humans that have survived that long, that have not been altered, or, missing many parts. If that does not show some divine intervention............

yeah, if skeptics would actually study the bible and archeology, they wouldn't be skeptics anymore.  I say that because I know of people have gone out to prove the bible was wrong, but ended up proving it was right and they finally realized it.

Every creature alive today is garandman's "transitional creature"

garandman has based his faith on the sand, and when presented with God's own evidence goes into denial.  He has to, for to admit God's evidence will destroy his incorrect presuppositions.  He has argued himself into a faith destroying corner.  He would however make a good Mullah with his fervor.

Well I will state my opinion on Evolution.

Evolution is a natural fact, we see it in nature all the time. When a certain species of moth starts to become darker because of the soot that falls on the trees, that is evolution. Over time these changes keep on accumulating and eventually a new species comes along.

There are transative fossils out there. Look at the evolution of the horse, or the dog, we have found all of these in the fossil record. Punctuated Equilibrium explains why at some places there are more trasative forms than others. During some periods evolution skyrockets because the climate is in rapid flux therefore promoting more evolution.

I added 205 posts in that thread to my count.

20% of the 1,000 post limit.

I find it remarkable that evolution is more popular than BOTD.

Quoted: Every creature alive today is garandman's "transitional creature" garandman has based his faith on the sand, and when presented with God's own evidence goes into denial.  He has to, for to admit God's evidence will destroy his incorrect presuppositions.  He has argued himself into a faith destroying corner.  He would however make a good Mullah with his fervor.

HA HA HA HA  LOL  

What of the blasphemous writings in the dead sea and other period scrolls?  If your base your proof of purity of text on those you have to admit the texts that you will not like.

Quoted: //I had this all typed out when the last thread broke, then they locked my new thread and posted a link to a thread about some movie. dammit I want to get my .02 in! First off, what we call the Bible was in origin a collection of various texts and scrolls in various languages and eventually collected and edited for content. All of these were written by humans and as with every other thing created by humans, is prone to error and/or misunderstanding. I need only to point to the Koran to prove this. Secondly, you can read just about anything you want into the bible. UFO guys point to evidence of ETs, Numerologists look for codes, Homosexuals have webpages full of quotes from the Bible supporting their gayness, while others have webpages full of quotes purporting the opposite. According to Weekly World News, the Mormons, or Jehovas's Witnesses the end of the world is/was near/last week/next month. In the end it's all just in how you interpret it. Evolution and creationism are two theories. They do not cancel eachother out nor do they oppose eachother. The only "theory" that opposes creationism is Atheism. Unless of course you want to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible (7 days and all that) The scientific version of the history of the Universe is thus: 1. Big Bang (Basic Universe created out of nothing) 2. Stars born 3. Planets made 4. Life appears A. Plants/Trees B. Critters The big question is wether Humans evolved from single celled organisms over millions of years or if Adam was molded from dirt while Eve grew out of his rib. If you want to believe in a literal word for word translation of the Bible, nothing good will come of it. In fact, you're probably already condemed to hell. (Reread Kings, Deuteronomy, and Numbers if you don't believe me) you are in some serious error there, buddy.  How can the bible condem you to hell if you beleive that it is true??? what kind of logic is that?! If you're more flexible, let's move on. We know that living things are evolving. Viruses are getting stronger, people are getting taller, some animals use tools (no, not your screwdriver) etc. We've traced the mitochondria in our DNA to a species that lived about a 100,000 years ago. We know the Dinosaurs died out a few million years ago, while an enterprising species of furbearers managed to survive. viruses getting stronger...effect of sin.  people getting taller...effects of mankind messing with the food we eat and that we eat better now. some animals use tools...so what if they can think?  Every animal can think.  The difference with humans is that we have a sense of right and wrong and can communicate, and that we have a soul. So the question becomes a philosophical one. Again discarding a literal translation we have to ask ourselves: 1. What constitues God's "Image" in which he made us? I find it hard to belive that it's of a hairy two-legged creature that can make a variety of strange noises out of both ends. To me it's more likely a conciousness that can effect changes on the world and lesser animals around us - which describes us quite well. 2. What is "time" to God? Answer: Nothing. The few million years it took for us to crawl out of the mud is nothing to an all-seeing omnipotent being who preceeded the Universe. In all likelyhood He/She's got a hundred billion trillion other sheep around the Universe and knows us all by name. What seems like a long time to us doesn't even register on that scale. So in conclusion Evolution can peacefully exist with non-literal Creationism.

what are the other texts in the dead sea scrolls.

Quoted: First off, what we call the Bible was in origin a collection of various texts and scrolls in various languages and eventually collected and edited for content. All of these were written by humans and as with every other thing created by humans, is prone to error and/or misunderstanding. I need only to point to the Koran to prove this. .

The Koran proves the Bible is incorrect??? That's you official position??


By this logic, ANY false work can disprove EVERY true work.



WOW.
Dude - leave the heavy lifting to those capable of it.

FOR THE LAST TIME!

Evolution II???

Quoted: I find it remarkable that evolution is more popular than BOTD.

I know....I'm so proud.  

THE THEORY OF NATURAL SELECTION!!


If you can't even call it by the right term then you have no business discussing it!


Sgatr15

You need to do a little study of the dead sea scrolls. Most of them have been released to the public for a price, and they show that the Bible we read today, comes directly from these documents written over 1700 years ago. Now, there are no other writings of humans that have survived that long, that have not been altered, or, missing many parts. If that does not show some divine intervention............

Wrong, there are many documents that survived from ancient China, some well over 4000 years old.

And you may want to study more about them yourself: www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/library.html

Quoted: Every creature alive today is garandman's "transitional creature" garandman has based his faith on the sand, and when presented with God's own evidence goes into denial.  He has to, for to admit God's evidence will destroy his incorrect presuppositions.  He has argued himself into a faith destroying corner.  He would however make a good Mullah with his fervor.

you STILL don't understand what "transitional creature" means?  Transitional creature = fishibian, invertifish (lol I like that one), ect. NOT elephant, killer whale, ect.

Dude, evolutionists are like people who believe we did not go to the moon.  They think their super intellectual skills and grasp of scientific stuff "proves" their point, when it in fact does the opposite (if they would take a few minutes to actually research for themselves).  That, and you can't convince them of it either.  So arguing about it is pointless.

Quoted: You need to do a little study of the dead sea scrolls. Most of them have been released to the public for a price, and they show that the Bible we read today, comes directly from these documents written over 1700 years ago. Now, there are no other writings of humans that have survived that long, that have not been altered, or, missing many parts. If that does not show some divine intervention............

300 years after Jesus Christ walked the earth. Thats still a pretty food game of Telephone if you ask me.

Quoted: what are the other texts in the dead sea scrolls.

www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/library.htm

religion.rutgers.edu/iho/dss.html

www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/toc.html

I'm going to bed...I'll catch the rest tomarrow...hopefully It won't have too many posts!

I gota go to bed too, so lemme leave ya with this....


GO RED SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong, there are many documents that survived from ancient China, some well over 4000 years old.

Sure, little poems and sayings, but no books, that are as long, nor as complete as the Bible.

The Koran proves the Bible is incorrect??? That's you official position?? By this logic, ANY false work can disprove EVERY true work. WOW. Dude - leave the heavy lifting to those capable of it.

Cute.

The position was stated quite well. The Bible is a work of Man and as such is not infaillble. And the Koran is a perfect example of a purportedly divine work created by a man, and it's problems have already been dicussed in other threads.

Let's try to come up with a better argument next time, or maybe you should stay away from the heavy lifting.

Sure, little poems and sayings, but no books, that are as long, nor as complete as the Bible.

You'd better go check that link, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not complete, represent only the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and there is quite a bit there that's not found in the Bible.

As for what survived from Ancient China, "The Art of War" is but one example, and is over 2400 years old. There are also histories, empirical dictates, plays, philosophies.

Quoted: you STILL don't understand what "transitional creature" means?  Transitional creature = fishibian, invertifish (lol I like that one), ect. NOT elephant, killer whale, ect.

Because you do not see the end result does not disqualify them from being transitional.  To believe that fossils are a continuous record is a complete misunderstanding.  The conditions that create fossils are sporadic at best.  You will only ever see random snapshots with long periods of time between them.  Get used to it.

Quoted: You'd better go check that link, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not complete, represent only the hebrew bible (Old Testament) and there is quite a bit there that's not found in the bible. As for what survived from Ancient China, "The Art of War" is but one example, and is over 2400 years old. There are also histories, empirical dictates, plays, philosophies.

You need to check all of the links, they have released Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and others from the New Testament, and as to the Chinese writings, they are not complete.

Just because some documents survived a long time does not mean that they are divinely inspired. The jews were very meticulous in the way they transcribed their religious documents. They were so stong in their belief in the scripture that they kept very high standards in all translations. This does not mean that they are divine, nor does this prove evolution. It just proves how meticulous the transcribers of the documents were.

From your own link:


1996   -- French scholar Emile Puech supports Nebe  against Thiede  in identifying Cave 7's Greek fragments as portions of 1 Enoch rather than various New Testament books (Revue Biblique 103).


The Scrolls are Fragments, portions of different books. And not New Testament.

Inventory of scrolls

Nag Hammadi

Other Gospels

Links to period texts

The truth is that neither party can truly "prove" the other side wrong. There is no REAL way to show that one side is really right besides hearsay, faith, and probability. There is no possible proof that makes either side right. I like to call this kind of argument a "Whatever floats your boat" argument. Neither side is really open to the other sides reasoning and neither side really has any NEW information on either topic(people not reading enough about the opposite side doesnt count as "new information").

There is nothing new for either side. If you believe we are from God's creation then so be it. If you believe we blew up and came here after a few billion years thats cool, too. No one here can stop you.


Whatever floats your boat.