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Posted: 6/14/2002 4:24:55 AM EDT
Sorry, Garandman. I can't let your misunderstanding of the covenant go. You obviously don't understand that the covenant was made by God, to the line from Abraham, forever, no IF. God chastens those he loves. That is why He used the Babylonian captivity to correct His people. This had nothing to do with the covenant regarding the land. "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" Genesis 15:18 notice no IF. God makes an unconditional promise. "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him , saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. ... And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their genereations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Genesis 17:2-4, 7-8 God establishes the covenant with no IF. God declares his promise and does not propose a joint contract. "And now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence; Behold, I will gather them out of all countries whither I have driven them in my anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole soul." Jeremiah 32:36-41 Don't be fooled by Garandman's limited understanding of this topic. God will judge those who hinder HIS people. Planerench (gotta go make the donuts) Out
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:29:20 AM EDT
Circular logic: God promised this here land to us jews. Says who? Why, the holy book of the jews of course.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:31:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: Circular logic: God promised this here land to us jews. Says who? Why, the holy book of the jews of course.
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That is why it is called a "belief". I for one enjoy these scriptural topics, and wish that those who aren't believers would simply steer clear of them rather than jump in and slam them, flame them, and ridicule them. Jerks.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:41:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 4:41:45 AM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By TheKill: I for one enjoy these scriptural topics,
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Oh but so do I. Can't you tell?
and wish that those who aren't believers would simply steer clear of them rather than jump in and slam them, flame them, and ridicule them.
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Personally, I believe in elves, goblins, and the Great White Sock that lives under my bed and controls the world from there. Just the other day, I overheard it promising "all the land between the dressers, verily! unto the patch of molding, and yea! the Sacred Steamer Trunk of Old!" to the Dustbunny Folk. Am I getting bent all out of shape because somebody makes fun of me for [i]my[/i] believes? And I just [i]know[/i] somebody will, you guys are so mean. Uh-oh, caffeine kicking in...
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:47:09 AM EDT
So if the Christians accept the T*r*h and making it part of their Holy Bible and the Muslims by Accepting Father Abraham and that he is the source of the seed for them . Then accepting the T*r*h as a book of G*d, they accept the covenent with G*d and the Jews.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:51:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 4:53:47 AM EDT by Kar98]
But if the moslems accept Abraham as source of their seed, then [i]"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" Genesis 15:18[/i] kicks in, and God did promise said lands to all of Abrahams seed, (which includes arabs), not to half a third of Noah's descendents, right? So the promised land was promised to jews and arabs alike, right?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:52:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:58:36 AM EDT
G*d promised the land to Israel the seed of Issac, Sarah is the one that forced Hagar and Ismael out and started the problem. Interesting to note that this occurred before Mohhamad and Islam, before all of this.....might there really be a G*d?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:04:15 AM EDT
Precisely, [b]TheWind[/b], in my beliefs there is an unbroken line from the Garden of Eden on earth, to the Establishment of God's People through Abraham, to the Revelation of God at Sinai, to the Incarnation of God at Bethlehem, to the Transubstantiation of Messiah at Cavalry, to the Exaltation of Messiah on Resurrection Sunday, to the Establishment of His Church on Pentecost, to the Restoration of His People in the Holy Land, to the visible Return of Messiah on Judgment Day, and back to the beginning of a Garden of Eden in Heaven. Enjoy the ride. Eric The(Chosen)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:07:10 AM EDT
Great thread title!!!! DEFINITELY grabbed my attention!!!!!! Before I get to the Scriptures, let's just look at how history played out. This here is the key: [b]SIMPLY LOOKING AT ISRAELS HISTORY INTERPRETS THE COVENANT FOR US.[/b] Lemme say that again: [b]SIMPLY LOOKING AT ISRAELS HISTORY INTERPRETS THE COVENANT FOR US.[/b] First, let's define "everlasting / eternal." By definition, "everlating / eternal" includes both time, AND eternity. It means forever, at all times, without breaks in time, exception, or interruption. it means aways, at ALL times and beyond time. Next, let's define and understand the God who gave the Covenant. His word CANNOT be broken. He will never break His word Himself. If He said "everlasting" then he means what we defined above, cuz unlike Bill Clinton, God doesn't mess around with the definition of "is." (that's a joke for your humor impaired types [:D] ) NOW, By simply looking at Israel's history, you see that whatever it was that God promised to be "everlasting / eternal" it was NOT the dirt in the Middle East, as there HAVE been breaks / interuptions / exceptions in their possession of that dirt: 1. At the time of Nehemiah 2. during Daniel's babylonian captivity 3. From A.D. 70 until 1948. 4. I can't remember if there were any other OT exiles. SINCE we see their HAS been an interruption (actually several) in possession of the land, we come to understand that God could NOT have been promising unconditional, eternal possession of the land. We know this becasue God NEVER violates His own word. This is a truth against which there is no argument. NONE. Further, since "everlasting" includes eternity, when heaven will be the Christians dwelling place and Hell will be the dwelling place of the rebellious against God, we KNOW that God could NOT have been promising "eternal" possession" of the dirt in teh Middle East. WHY??? becasue Scripture teaches that this earth will be destroyed. That INCLUDES the dirt in teh Middle East. You cannot possess that which does not exist. Since the Jewish peoples will NOT posess the land when heaven exists (a "time" that is included in our defintion of "everlasting / eternal" ) we come to understand that God DID NOT promise eternal possession of the dirt in teh middle East. ELSE GOD WOULD HAVE BEEN A LIAR WHEN HE MADE HIS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM. Lemme just give you ONE Scripture that PROVES Abrahams understanding of this reality: [i]Hebrews 11: 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.[/i] Abraham liven IN THE LAND OF PROMISE as a STRANGER. That means a nomad, a foreigner, someone just passing thru. Why? Becasue he looked for a heavenly city (New Jerusalem) "whose builder and maker is God." Wrap your mind around that for a while, we can discuss it, and after that we'll head over to the Old testament Scriptures, that document this understanding.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:08:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By TheKill: I for one enjoy these scriptural topics,
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Oh but so do I. Can't you tell?
and wish that those who aren't believers would simply steer clear of them rather than jump in and slam them, flame them, and ridicule them.
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Personally, I believe in elves, goblins, and the Great White Sock that lives under my bed and controls the world from there. Just the other day, I overheard it promising "all the land between the dressers, verily! unto the patch of molding, and yea! the Sacred Steamer Trunk of Old!" to the Dustbunny Folk. Am I getting bent all out of shape because somebody makes fun of me for [i]my[/i] believes? And I just [i]know[/i] somebody will, you guys are so mean. Uh-oh, caffeine kicking in...
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It appears you may have just been having a little fun. If so, sorry, my bad! If not, then....whatever. [;D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:10:53 AM EDT
BTW, there are two things that G*d will not tolerate. Idol worship and persecuting the Jews.....heed the warning. Those that are our friends are as in Ruth, are us. Those that persecute the Jews...suffer G*ds wrath. ETH, Legs, you are blessed for your beliefs and support.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:14:20 AM EDT
Genesis 17:19 And God said, [i]Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shall call his name Isaac and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him[/i]. 20 And as for Ishmael I have heard thee Behold I have blessed him and will make him fruitfull and will multiply him exceedingly twelve princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation 21 But [i]my covenant will I establish with Isaac,[/i] which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year About Ishmael the Lord said He will be a wild man and his hand would be against every man and every mans hand against him
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:22:16 AM EDT
Absolutely divdoc. But that Scripture can ONLY be understood in teh light of (1) revealed history, and how it has played out (which I addressed above) and (2) New testament Scriptures, given by Christ's apostles (and Christ Himself's) meticulous and overwhelming treatment of a proper understanding of the Old Testament (which I hope time will allow for later in this thread) You bring up Scriptures semingly thinking I've never read them before. If I'm an expert on ANY subject, its THIS ONE. I'm actually 5-6 chapters into a book on this very subject. I've done my homework. I'm ready to discuss ANY text you can present. So, PLEASE, bring them, and let's discuss!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:34:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:34:47 AM EDT
The mere fact that the Jews are back in the Holy Land and the Jews are in control of the Holy City is sufficient evidence of what the Lord meant by His words in the Hebrew Bible, and what He intends for His People! Jesus predicted it, and it came to pass. How it came to pass is of no consequence, it just did. The Lord used foreign armies to punish the Jews of Old Testament times, He can just as easily use foreign armies to cause the final reward of the Jews. So when the Savior returns to earth to make His next triumphal entry into His Holy City, He will set His Foot down first on the Mount of Olives in a Jewish Nation, and enter His Holy City through the Golden Gate, the Gate of Mercy, into a Jewish controlled City, which will become [u]His[/u] City. [b]'...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/b] Zechariah 12:10 Eric The(SaysItAll!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:35:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 5:41:40 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The mere fact that the Jews are back in the Holy Land and the Jews are in control of the Holy City is sufficient evidence of what the Lord meant by His words in the Hebrew Bible, and what He intends for His People!
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The fact that something HAS happened DOES NOT mean God is pleased with it. And as I can show from Scripture, God's promise was IF you retyrn to me, and repent, and return to obedience, I will GIVE you back the land. THAT was to be God's methodology. God was to HAND it back to them. Since the giving of that promise, God has given NO OTHER promise to override that methodology. The fact that they REMAIN unrepentant, AND are by FORCE trying to wrestle the land away from others (in comparison to God giving it to them as a gift) indicates to my satisfaction that what is going on in teh Middle East today is NOT of God's methodology.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:36:14 AM EDT
shotar - Correlation DOES NOT prove causality.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:40:11 AM EDT
First of all G-man while you seem to think this is about you...its not.. I was addressing the issue of all the seed of Abraham being the inheritor of "The Promise" when in fact is was Isaac... Oh I am all too aware of your self awarded "expert status"... :) And you are knowledgeable..yet obtuse imo There is no doubt that Abraham walked in the knowledge of God's promise but if it is revealed to Abraham at this time as to the status of Heaven and Earth passing away and a new Heaven and a New Earth being presented to mankind to dwell upon..I dont see any info that Abraham was aware of this and if he wasnt then what was his reality his perception of the Almighty One? Yes the dirt will pass away..but it hasnt yet..and by Gods own handiwork and his involvement with mankind over His dirt..its obvious to me He cares deeply for it...will He destroy it...yep.. can He care for something deeply and yet destroy it..Yes again.. The Promise made to Abraham is about dirt and spirit...thats why he had his people walk the land..and gave them its parameters..blood and dirt..flesh and blood and spirit.. Do I wish to play dueling scriptures with you...no Why I suspect your concordance is poised ready to strike a blow against the windmills of hypocracy in everyones heart except your own...just like the rest of us... You bring your own little secrets and agenda I dont know your heart only God does..but you are no friend of Israel or of the physical descendants of Abraham and that in my beliefs sets you up for failure..regardless of your handiness with a concordance or the other tools of your expertise.. Its a heart thing dude..and I have my own baggage to work on And like I said earlier ..even the devil can quote scripture.. and he can do it much better than I can..maybe even as good as you... All I have is Jesus..thats it..I believe he cares about things like sovereign nations but first of all he cares about obedience..and calls us to repentance Those who do my fathers will are my brothers and sisters indeed..
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:40:41 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
The fact that something HAS happened DOES NOT mean God is pleased with it.
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Well, we certainly know that [u]you[/u] are not pleased with it. I leave it to God's people to determine if God may be pleased with the fact that the Holy City is back in the hands of its original owners. Some people just can't handle it. Eric The(HisPeopleCan)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:41:07 AM EDT
Let's see? G*d by the very nature of being G*d, is all knowing, all powerfull, and everywhere! Time is meaninglees to G*d, but the evolution of his creation is G*d's pleasure. If we really pisseed G*d off....we would not be here...God would just obilerate us. MMMMMM
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:46:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The mere fact that the Jews are back in the Holy Land and the Jews are in control of the Holy City is sufficient evidence of what the Lord meant by His words in the Hebrew Bible, and what He intends for His People! Jesus predicted it, and it came to pass. How it came to pass is of no consequence, it just did. The Lord used foreign armies to punish the Jews of Old Testament times, He can just as easily use foreign armies to cause the final reward of the Jews. So when the Savior returns to earth to make His next triumphal entry into His Holy City, He will set His Foot down first on the Mount of Olives in a Jewish Nation, and enter His Holy City through the Golden Gate, the Gate of Mercy, into a Jewish controlled City, which will become [u]His[/u] City. [b]'...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/b] Zechariah 12:10 Eric The(SaysItAll!)Hun[>]:)]
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Damn Straight !!! < In my best ebonic voice > [@:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:46:54 AM EDT
India- Huge population very prosperous- Never persecuted Jews.
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India is "very prosperous"? Perhaps in comparison to Bangladesh... [;)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:47:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: Let's see? G*d by the very nature of being G*d, is all knowing, all powerfull, and everywhere! Time is meaninglees to G*d, but the evolution of his creation is G*d's pleasure. If we really pisseed G*d off....we would not be here...God would just obilerate us. MMMMMM
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I assume by "we" you mean the Jewish peoples???? If so, the ENTIRE OT disporves your theory. The entire OT is the account of the Jewish peoples rebelling against God, Him chastising them in His righteous anger, and pleasding with them to return to Him in obedience. The entire New Testament is the record of God CREATING a people that WOULD return to Him in obedience, thru the death burial and resurrection of His Son, Chrsit Jesus. That "people" is a united jewish and Gentile group, united by Jesus Christ, for the glory of God. THAT is why my nessage to Jewish peoples everywhere is and has been "repent, and receive the Son of God" for the glory of God, and why I bristle against those who mislead Jewish peoples away from their Messiah with sugar plum fairy tales of dirt in the Middle East.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:49:55 AM EDT
divdoc - Could you please use paragraph structure???? Hitting the "return" key and leaving space between paragraphs?? Its VERY difficult to read through a never ending string of text. And I can't respond properly if I can't read your psots.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:51:33 AM EDT
And NONE of you have in any way responded to my account of how history has played out being the interpretation of what the Abrahamic Covenant means. Nice responses, but NOT on point.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:53:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:56:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 6:15:21 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: And like I said earlier ..even the devil can quote scripture.. and he can do it much better than I can..maybe even as good as you...
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You know, pal, that just beyond the pale. I'm engaging in civil discussion with someone else, and you come in here and compare me to Satan? Hinting that I'm WORSE than Satan?? Knowing that I am a Chrsitian, WHAT POSSIBLY cvould be your motivation, OTHER THAN to attack me personally??? You KNOW what I'm gonna say in these threads. If you can't handle it and have to resort to that, THEN DON'T READ MY POSTS!!!!!!!!!!
All I have is Jesus..thats it..I believe he cares about things like sovereign nations but first of all he cares about obedience..and calls us to repentance Those who do my fathers will are my brothers and sisters indeed..
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Exactly. First of all He desires obedience - the VERY message I'm sending out to Jewish peoples everywhere. WHich makes your Gospel of Middle East Dirt all the worse. Jews are dying and going to hell, and your worried about them having land. How compassioante of you.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:02:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 6:16:57 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By shotar: G-man: You are correct, correlation does not necessarily prove causality. If one is repeatedly hit over the head with a stick, it does not follow that one's headache is caused by this. It sure is a good place to start looking for the cause though.
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True enuf. I've looked at it, and I am unconvinced. When you consider that God raised up Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar, Artexerxes, and the entire Roman empire with IMMENSE wealth and prosperity FOR THE PURPOSE of punishing the Jewish peoples disobedience in order to motivatye them to return to God in repentance and obedience, your whole theory kinda falls on its head. For my $$$, anyway.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:18:40 AM EDT
'We' was the world in general, not specfically the jews. And as for converting us, just realize that if you read the T*r*h, follow the 10 commandments, study from the Rabbis...you are actually a Jew, Jesus was a Rabbi, his teachings are as the Talmud, so we are brothers...Shalom
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:22:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: 'We' was the world in general, not specfically the jews. And as for converting us, just realize that if you read the T*r*h, follow the 10 commandments, study from the Rabbis...you are actually a Jew, Jesus was a Rabbi, his teachings are as the Talmud, so we are brothers...Shalom
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Well, brothers in arms if nothing else. [:D] Peace.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:29:54 AM EDT
Amen, [b]Brother 9divdoc[/b]! I will listen to [u]anything[/u] that you may wish to say about the Scriptures. The problem with discussions like this is that it may distract folks from understanding the central underlying message of the entire Bible - [b]We are [u]all[/u] prodigal children who need to come home to God![/b] At present, there is only one way for us to come to God and that is through His Son, Jesus. That's it! The [u]only[/u] way! And to begin the process of coming to God through Jesus, once must commit oneself to an initiation rite. It is an initiation rite that in symbolism is at least as old as Noah's ark, as Naaman the Syrian's washing in the Jordan River, as old as the parting of the Red Sea for Moses and the Israelites, and current right up to the time of the 'crying of a voice in the wilderness' and the Baptism of John. It was an initiation rite that Jesus Himself submitted to, that the disciples accepted and performed at His direction, and that everyone after Cavalry was instructed to do. We know from the writings of Paul and others that the initiation rite of baptism was an outwardly symbolic act to evidence an internal change, and to identify oneself with not only Christ, but His Death, Burial and Resurrection! There is simply no record of any Christians after Pentecost who were not immediately baptized and 'added to the Chruch' as God willed. We know that these earliest Christians were baptizing everyone that sought admission into His church from the historical records of the Romans, who referred to the act of baptism as 'a ritual bath.' We know from biblical archeologists that the way they determine whether a first or second century structure 'served as a church' is if there is an interior cistern present that was sufficiently large enough to permit two people to enter into it. The baptizer and the initiate. So that, among other reasons, is why, although it is nice to discuss matters such as this, it is first crucial to determine if there remains anything in your life that must be done in order to become a member of His church. If you have not yet been baptized of water and of the spirit, then the Spirit says 'Come!' Jesus says 'Come!' His church says 'Come!' [red][b]But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.[/b][/red] Matthew 6:33. Eric The(AllGod'sChillunSay'Come!')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:36:08 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
And NONE of you have in any way responded to my account of how history has played out being the interpretation of what the Abrahamic Covenant means.
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Nor have you replied to our point that the time has obviously come when the Jews are back in possession of the land. This is another historical fact that you haven't properly addressed, IMHO! You ignore our arguments, we ignore yours. Simple! So, can we hear from you again how Zechariah Chapter 12 should be interpreted to mean [b]diddly squat?[/b] Eric The(Huh?Please!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:38:14 AM EDT
While I disagree with Eric's assertion of the need of baptism for salvation, it doens't really matter. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If Eric wants to throw baptism in there also, that's cool. We'll all sort it out in heaven.[:D] Read the Scriptures, and make you own determination who is right, Eric or me. But DEFINITELY read the Scriptures. (Not interested in further gettin off of planewrenches topic, which is the covenant.)
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:45:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
And NONE of you have in any way responded to my account of how history has played out being the interpretation of what the Abrahamic Covenant means.
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Nor have you replied to our point that the time has obviously come when the Jews are back in possession of the land. This is another historical fact that you haven't properly addressed, IMHO! [>]:)]
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Well, "properly addressed" is a very subjective concept. I have however replied to the subject (your claim that I have not replied being demonstrably false) , where I made the irrefutable statement that [b]just because an event has occurred DOES NOT mean God is either pleased with it, or was the driving force behind it.[/b] On the other hand, I haven;t seen anyone even REPLY to my treatment of "how HISTORY has played out. " Dealing with PRESENT DAY events DOES NOT address how HISTORY has playued out. But, you knew that, right???
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:49:06 AM EDT
I believe we all agree that the original covenant was with Abraham and he was promised to be the "father of many nations". God in the old testiment was preparing his people for their Messiah. Therefore, when Christ came he would fullfill the covenant promised by God. As described in Galatians, we ALL are children of Abraham who believe that Christ was the son of God. Galatians 3 Faith or Observance of the Law 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1]7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[2] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[3] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[4] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[5] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[6] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:52:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MCTS: I believe we all agree that the original covenant was with Abraham and he was promised to be the "father of many nations". God in the old testiment was preparing his people for their Messiah. Therefore, when Christ came he would fullfill the covenant promised by God. As described in Galatians, we ALL are children of Abraham who believe that Christ was the son of God. .
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BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Preach it brother!!!!!!!!!11 Galatians 3 is IMO the MOST important chapter in teh Bible. I have repeatedly pleaded with my professing Chrsitian brethren here to read it. Being I've gotten scant little response from them, i wonder if they have.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:01:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 7:10:37 AM EDT by Badseed]
Pretty much everyone I know enjoys fiction of all flavors (for the most part). Only the bible leaves out the ending; so it can be read & debated over and over. Now that's value. Does your faith lie with your god; meaning, do you know what is expected of you or do you just follow an old book? ... or let me re-phrase: If there was not a bible, [b]would you - without a doubt, still believe the same things?[/b] not flaming... not trolling... just wondering what the people of god think about the bible and their beliefs in direct relation to one another. To close and to quote(Geoge Carlin): "So, there is a guy: That lives in the sky. He loves you... and he needs money!"
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:03:59 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
While I disagree with Eric's assertion of the need of baptism for salvation, it doens't really matter.
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Hmmmm. [red][b]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Matthew 16:15,16 'No need for baptism', sez [b]garandman.[/b] [red][b]'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'[/b][/red], sez He! And is He not the Author of our Salvation? He wrote the rules, IIRC.[:D]
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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Great Ballz of fire, [b]garandman[/b], is this slow pitch softballs you're serving up to me this morning? Watch me knock this one outta the park! (Or should I say watch the Lord knock this one outta the park?) [red][b][u]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven[/u]; [u]but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven[/u]. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/b][/red] Matthew 7:21,22,23
If Eric wants to throw baptism in there also, that's cool. We'll all sort it out in heaven.
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Well, let's just hope we will [u]all[/u] get there! [red][b]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [u]Except a man be born of water[/u] and of the Spirit, he [u]cannot[/u] enter into the kingdom of God.[/b][/red] John 3:5. [red][b]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[/b][/red] Luke 13:24. Eric The(ThisIsFun!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:11:00 AM EDT
I might just have to tack this thread![:D] Eric The('BarryBondsOfBibledom')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:35:34 AM EDT
Eric - Changing the subject from The Abrahamic Covenant (the authors topic) to the necessity of immersion baptism for salvation DOES NOT score you any points. In fact, its a STRIKEOUT. There's ONLY ONE issue I'll discuss in this thread, namely this: [b]"The UNESCPABLE reality of there having been breaks in Israels possession of the dirt in the Middle East PROVES God could NOT have meant an eternal, unconditional possession of the dirt in the Middle East in the Abrahamic Covenant. Else God would be a liar."[/b] That's it. FOCUS. You've tried TWICE in two different threads to skate away from this. If you wish to discuss immersion, I'll ONLY do it in another thread, and then ONLY if time allows as THIS thread, and the topic its author presented is my primary focus in life. Since I'm responding to 3 or 4 of you at once, I doubt I'll want or have time to divert my attention from here.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:49:27 AM EDT
Of that's right, [b]garandman[/b], you [u]never[/u] go very far afield in anyone else's threads. Sorry, I had quite forgotten that! The point I am/was/will always be making is that if you are unable to discern the necessary requirements for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, shouldn't you be more worried about that small(?) matter, rather than trying to figure out if Israel still has title to the land based upon an old deed given to Abraham? I think it's one of those 'seek ye first the Kingdom of God' moments. It certainly has more bearing on Jesus' Message to the World than any speculation over whether the Jews are still the Jews! But that seems to be your [u]one[/u] overwhelming passion! God gave the land back to the Jews in 1948 and added to it in 1967. Can't you recognize that while God may not be involved in every lousy war that's raging on the face of His planet, anything that happens in the Holy Land ultimately involves God. Eric The(Happy)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:58:08 AM EDT
Whatever, Eric. The authors intent for this thread is QUITE clear. As is your intent for bringing up a COMPLETELY extraneous topic. If I've strayed from a topic thread before, obviously I'm trying to amend my ways here. There's two ways you can respond to that: 1. Commend me for doing well. 2. Tear me down for the past. Since you chose #2, and avoided YET AGAIN the ONE point I wish to discuss here, that IS on topic, your intent is quite clear. Distract, delay, deny, lauch counter accusations. But NEVER EVER just answer the question.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:58:19 AM EDT
EricTheHun, Since we are already off the topic I would like to ask for your interpretation of the following event. I mean no harm or flame by this. I honestly want to know how the Church of Christ (I'm assuming you are?) see this event. On the day of Christ crucifixion their were two men who died with him, one confessed belief in Christ and Christ told him "today you will be with me in paradise". This man was not baptized, but entered the kingdom of heaven.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:09:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 8:10:13 AM EDT by garandman]
MCTS - Don't get sucked into Eric's little lawyer's trick. Since he CANNOT address me on the FACT that the REALITY of how history has played out PROVES God never intended an eternal unconditional promise of possession to the dirt in the Middle East to the Jewish peoples.... he's trying to say of me "You're wrong on this extraneous issue, so you MUST be wrong re: the Abrahamic Covenant." Its lawyers skulduggery, which admittedly Eric has a knack for. There is ONLY ONE question at issue here - and I've posed it, and Eric has COMPLETELY avoided it.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:18:13 AM EDT
Sock ceded all of Manhattan to me. It says so in the First Book of Achmed, 4:14.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:27:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 8:39:47 AM EDT by dabassi]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Hmmmm. [red][b]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Matthew 16:15,16
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you mean Mark 16:15,16. i believe that if you want to be obedient to God you SHOULD be baptised. but that doesnt mean you NEED to be baptised (evidence is the criminal crucified with Jesus was saved by faith alone).
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:43:13 AM EDT
Post from MCTS -
This man was not baptized, but entered the kingdom of heaven.
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What? You knew that the penitent thief had not been baptized? Where does it say [u]that[/u] in the Gospel?[:D] No, there are three excellent reasons why the penitent thief was told by Jesus that he would be with Him in Heaven that day! Reason No 1. [b]The penitent thief DIED UNDER THE LAW![/b] Christ's Church was not established until the Day of Pentecost. So the fact that the penitent thief asked Christ to remember him, was sufficient in Jesus's mind to save him under the Law. Remember how easy forgiveness was under Jewish Temple worship. Prayers and sacrifices for the sins of the Jews were constantly being offered up to God, which, until the very moment of Jesus's death, were sufficient to God to cause Him to forgive the sins of every Jew. Apparently, although we are not told this, the penitent thief was the very last Jew that was ever saved under the Law! Maybe there were more during the 50 day period between Passover and Pentecost, but of these we are not told! Reason No 2. [b]Jesus possesses the Keys to Heaven and Hell[/b] On this earth, whatever Jesus may bind, is bound in Heaven, if He losses on this earth, it is loosed in Heaven. If Jesus desires to 'suspend the rules' to let the penitent thief, or anyone else whom He desires, into Heaven under such circumstances, well, I, for one, will not complain! But I will not consider that Jesus was making church doctrine by doing what He did on Cavalry! It was His Day! Let Him do as He wishes! Reason No 3. [b]Who says the penitent thief was not baptized?[/b] From a doctrinal viewpoint this is the weakest argument, but one that must be made in order to show that we simply do not know everything about everything! John baptized 'many' we are told. Might not this penitent thief have been one of them? He knew Jesus and His message pretty well, didn't he? He understood Jesus better than the lawyers and scribes in the Temple understood Jesus. He understood Jesus better than Pontius Pilate understood Jesus. He knew that Jesus' Kingdom was in another world, a world that both He and this righteous Man dying next to him would soon enter, and he wished that this man, Jesus, would remember him, a soon-to-be-dead-sinner, when Jesus came into His Kingdom in that next world! He knew that Jesus was Lord! 'And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.' Luke 23:42 He knew that Jesus was innocent! 'And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: [u]but this man hath done nothing amiss[/u].' Luke 23:41. Sounds as if he knew Jesus very well indeed, so it would not surprise me at all if he had been baptized before Calvary! Not many present day Christians knew or know that much about Jesus. But he did. And you see where it got him, right?[:D] Eric The(Reverent)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:54:20 AM EDT
Post from dabassi -
you mean Mark 16:15,16.
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Yes, Mark 16:15,16.
i believe that if you want to be obedient to God you SHOULD be baptised.
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Why would you call Him, Lord, if you didn't wish to keep all of His commandments? If your boss at work tells you to do three specific things before you go home for the day, do you do what he asks? Why? Cause he's the boss, that's why!
but that doesnt mean you NEED to be baptised (evidence is the criminal crucified with Jesus was saved by faith alone).
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Just because Jesus told His church to teach every living creature that 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved' you feel that you have sufficient freedom in Christ to ignore one of His commandments? Do you teach others this, also? BTW, how do you pick and choose which commandments to obey and which can be ignored? Eric The(NotGood,NotGoodAtAll)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:11:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 9:42:47 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
I have been trying to think of something that I can add to this discussion... Something is amiss in the argument, but I can't put my finger on it. EDITED TO ADD: Just because the "WORD" allows you to assign particular characteristics to entire classes of objects (the different people(s) ) in this case doesn't meen that your statement will end up being accurate, in fact the larger the brush you paint with the more improbable your accuracy will become. In that just because the seed is within the particular land doesn't meen the seed will go as the land goes. And therein lays the crux of the problem. Seed in this sense meaning all peoples of a certain lineage... There is the probelm... Don't Confuse the seed with the land, even though often seeds are in the land... The seed can only exist in the land if he/she/ they are doing his will. .... Thinking thinking.... That NO person can ever be "as the seed" of the land unless they are doing gods will....... Something is about to be understood by me... That many peoples and lines can be "as the seed" of the same land.... DUH, God can promise the land to thousands upon thousands and still keep promising, because there is ROOM for ALL..... So it is my pleasure to announce that palestine can quit blowing up children, now because I have figured it out.. The Arabs can park their asses right in their own spot and be fruitful and multiply right where they are at... If they choose to... Ben
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:20:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 9:26:00 AM EDT by dabassi]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: BTW, how do you pick and choose which commandments to obey and which can be ignored?
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the point is no one (except jesus of course) can fully obey Gods law. i believe that only Gods grace saves us. BUT i also believe it is pleasing to him to see us baptised.
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Do you teach others this, also?
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i teach that only Gods grace saves us. if someone asks me if they should be baptised then of course i am going to say they should. if they ask do they need to be baptised i am going to say no but that they should still be baptised because it pleases God.
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