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Posted: 5/7/2004 3:30:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 4:36:23 PM EST by Terrato]
About a year ago I purchased several hundred rounds of military surplus ammunition from an online retailer. This ammunition was advertised as "GUARANTEED 100% NON CORROSIVE". I purchased this ammo for a firearm that I was in the process of buying, but did not actually have in my posession at the time. I was unable to fire any of this ammo until 9 months after I purchased it. This was no fault of the seller, but due to delays in recieving the firearm in question, and then not getting out to the range as often as I would like. After test-firing less than 50 rounds of the ammunition in question, I was satisfied that both the firearm and the ammuntion in question were functional.

Because so few rounds of ammunition had been fired, and because it was "GUARANTEED 100% NON CORROSIVE," I put the firearm into storage without cleaning it. The firearm was stored at room temperature in a box with a dessicant pack inside it, the same as I store all my other firearms. Now, three months later, there is significant corrosion in the bore of the firearm the ammunition was used in. None of my other firearms stored in the same manner exhibit any signs of this, so in my mind the sole cause must be the ammunition.

After researching the subject a bit further, I found several references to the ammunition I purchased indeed being corrosive. I contacted the seller with this information, curious if any other customers had experienced similar problems. His response follows (I've edited out the particular product name):

"We have been told by the importer it is 100% non corrosive.
We go by that.
We do have the [similar product] if you want to try that in the future.We have sold over 3000 cans of the [original product] so far and only 10 or so have come back."


I have ordered from this seller on several occassions in the past, and not had any problems with his merchandise or the way he does business. I made no request for a refund or other compensation in my initial contact, and judging from his response he will not be offering one of his own accord. I can't say I find this completely unreasonable, since the amount of time that has passed since I first purchased the product far surpasses the duration of his money-back guarantee.

However, I do question whether it is right for him to continue to advertise this product as "GUARANTEED 100% NON CORROSIVE," given my experience, as well as several internet references that specifically identify this product as corrosive by the head stamp. I do not feel this is a truthful representation of the product, and for this reason I will not purchase from him in the future.

My question to you, sages of ARFCOM, is this: do I have a responsibility to reveal the product and seller to the online shooting community? Would it only start a pissing contest between me and the seller? Should I have bothered writing all this out, or just gotten on with my life and accepted the fact I'll have to use a little ammonia to clean out the salts after every weekend at the range, even though I paid a premium for the ammunition based solely on the idea that I wouldn't have to mess with all that?
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 3:38:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:54:26 PM EST
Chalk this one up as a learning experience. Ammo may be labeled as "non-corrosive", and the powder usually IS so. It's the primers that will bite you in the ass. Primers in most imported ammo are mildly corrosive.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:58:29 PM EST
More than anything else I would chalk this thread up to proper firearm cleaning.

I don't care if I fire 10 rounds - I clean the weapon before I put her to bed in the safe. Why even subject yourself to the possibility of failures due to lack of proper cleaning?

It's simply too easy to clean a weapon to not....

CMOS
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:01:33 PM EST
I like your level headed approach to handling this issue.

Tough call. I would call them up and see what he will do about it.

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:05:15 PM EST
Well from what you wrote you already identified who it is. It is ammoman and the korean 30.06 ammo. It is proven that the KA headstamp ammo is corrosive and that is the picture he has on his website. If that is what he is selling, and not the PS stuff, then he needs to change his page. It is corrosive so the least he could do is tell people so they can properly clean their weapons once they are done.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:07:03 PM EST
I gotta agree with CMOS. Unless you have lotto money at your disposal, you should treat your firearms to a thorough cleaning after any and every range session. Seeing as you were made to wait for this firearm, i'd think you would take good care of it from the onset.

Do you go to bed dirty? Why treat something that could be used to save your life any different?
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:51:27 PM EST
I'd walk away from this seller - never to darken his door again. He claims that it's "100% guarentee'd non-corrosive". A statement like that implies and instills absolute confidence. Instead he's just saying things that he never bothered to check - and now you've just ruined a gun.

My ethics - I'd buy you a new gun - replace the case - and say I'm sorry. This is why I'm not in buisiness.

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:57:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 7:59:17 PM EST by FLAL1A]
The guy is stealing money and should be outted forcefully. If his weasel response is "the manufacturer says. . . ," then that's what his ad should say - it should also say "we do not guarantee this product, and if it turns out to be corrosive, we will blame the manufacturer." You were screwed, and the only remedy, in the words of a dear friend of mine, is to prove that you push a bigger dick than he does. The guy is a piece of shit, deserving of no sympathy whatever.

ETA: You owe it to your fellow shooters to out the thieving bastard.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:18:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
I gotta agree with CMOS. Unless you have lotto money at your disposal, you should treat your firearms to a thorough cleaning after any and every range session. Seeing as you were made to wait for this firearm, i'd think you would take good care of it from the onset.

Do you go to bed dirty? Why treat something that could be used to save your life any different?



More firearms are ruined by excess cleaning than lack of cleaning.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 9:11:24 PM EST
That is such a crock. At least the way it is generally mentioned in messages.
I use plastic pulls with cloth patches and enamel coated rods in my firearms.
I use chemicals to clean, not brute force.
I clean my guns like crazy and I am not harming them, I am certain.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 9:12:10 PM EST
Caveat Emptor. Especially afer so many months.
Knowing that there is even a possibility of corrosive ammo being available for your weapon, and considering the wealth of info on the internet, why wouldn't you take the time to personally check, instead of relying on the word of someone selling you something?

re Cleaning - I personally think they should be cleaned after each use. A bore wipe and a function-cleaning is enough. Not retentive about perfectly clean patches, had enough of that in the Marines.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 9:36:48 PM EST
I did not see the ad so I am not certain but many ammo sales ads I've seen say something like "100% guarenteed" or "100% sure fire" which means no duds, every round will fire.
The "non corrosive" usually does refer to the primers, but I do not understand why you would not clean a firearm after you shot it. Just the copper left in the bore from the bullet jackets will corode some. The fouling from burnt or unburnt powder is no good for the firearm and what about fingerprints on the gun? It is not that difficult to clean a firearm. Any damage that resulted is completely your fault not any ammo dealer. No sympathy here.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:15:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
The "non corrosive" usually does refer to the primers, but I do not understand why you would not clean a firearm after you shot it.



"Noncorrosive" refers to the product, which is AMMO - complete, fixed rounds. If you say ammo is noncorrosive, it means that the stuff will eventually foul the barrel and/or gas system, but it won't corrode either. "Noncorrosive" means "NOT corrosive." Ammunition that rusts your rifle if you fail to clean it promptly is corrosive. People who call corrosive ammo "noncorrosive" are thieves.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:28:04 PM EST
The black and white box norinco .308 that was imported years ago was labeled "non-corrosive". And it was true, the cardboard boxes weren't corrosive. Too bad the same couldn't be said about the ammo.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:34:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 10:34:35 PM EST by Terrato]
To those who take issue with my cleaning practices, I point to this statement:


Originally Posted By Terrato:
...I can't say I find this completely unreasonable, since the amount of time that has passed since I first purchased the product far surpasses the duration of his money-back guarantee...



I am not asking for or expecting to make up the damage done to my equipment.

I'm aware of the dogmatic approach some people take to firearms cleaning - I simply do not believe it always necessary. Furthermore, I doubt those people clean every firearm every time using the methods necessary for protection from corrosive ammo. As I'm sure you're away, standard solvents will not affect the corrosive salts, so even if I had cleaned them immediately, the same thing would have occured due to the seller's misrepresentation of the product.

So, to those who clean their rifles after every use, whether 1 round or 1,000 rounds, do I have a responsibility to reveal the product and seller to the YOU? Or will the cleaning methods you typically use protect you from this problem?
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