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Posted: 8/27/2004 1:22:10 AM EST
I would like a woman's perspective on my situation.

While dating a young lady I told her that no matter what happened with us, I wanted to pay for a semester of her college.

We started dating in December '03. This April I went to Iraq to be in protective services work. She never sent a card or letter. Never left a voice mail on my stateside cell phone. We did chat via instant messenger, some e-mail and I would call her. I had her send some of my stuff to me and she pawned off the mailing of it to her younger sister who never got around to it. When I did get the package, there wasn't even a note from her in it. Towards the end of July I flew her to Germany to spend my two week vacation with me. I paid for her airfare. Her birthday had been the week prior and I gave her a saltwater cultured pearl necklace as well as some high end perfume. While in Germany and Italy I bought her a Swarovski necklace, shoes, silver earrings and rings, a watch and a dress. I even gave her money to buy her friends souveniors.

We returned to our respective "homes" on 2 August.

On the 21st of August she tells me that it's too difficult trying to maintain a long distance relationship.

Do I go ahead and spend $4000 for the upcoming fall semester?

No input from the guys. I don't need "buy two", "I like pie" or "this thread is worthless without pics" comments. I truly want to get a woman's perspective on this.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:20:29 AM EST
Don't take this wrong,but it sounds like she was using you and that the relationship is very one sided. If she had a genuine interest in you you would have been hearing more from her. My gut feeling is I would not pay for a semester of her college,unless you can give extenuating circumstances as to why. She sounds like she has no interest in you unless it benefits her. Run faraway. Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:51:20 AM EST
Answer in man's language: NO

Answer in woman's language:

Perhaps she isn't even expecting you to pay any more since she does not want to maintain a long distance relationship? You should respectfully explain to her that since the relationship will be dissolving, you will not be paying her tuition. Let her be responsible for herself. I never would have recommended making such a (monetary) statement in the first place.

And a big WOW on all of the gifts. On one hand, I'm sure it was nice to receive such bounty, but there is more to a relationship than material possessions. There are women out there who spend years of their lives devoted to a man who buys them no such gifts and doesn't even verbalize his true emotions with her unless she specifically asks. Trust me, this type of woman does exist.

There is no need to keep a monetary promise to someone who can't even give you the respect of a simple letter and some of her time while you are away. You are obligated only by your own innards. Be ok with the fact that she is undeserving and make her wipe her own ass. You will be doing both of yourselves a huge favor.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:19:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 3:21:36 AM EST by stony275]

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:
Answer in man's language: NO

Answer in woman's language:

Perhaps she isn't even expecting you to pay any more since she does not want to maintain a long distance relationship? You should respectfully explain to her that since the relationship will be dissolving, you will not be paying her tuition. Let her be responsible for herself. I never would have recommended making such a (monetary) statement in the first place.

And a big WOW on all of the gifts. On one hand, I'm sure it was nice to receive such bounty, but there is more to a relationship than material possessions. There are women out there who spend years of their lives devoted to a man who buys them no such gifts and doesn't even verbalize his true emotions with her unless she specifically asks. Trust me, this type of woman does exist.

There is no need to keep a monetary promise to someone who can't even give you the respect of a simple letter and some of her time while you are away. You are obligated only by your own innards. Be ok with the fact that she is undeserving and make her wipe her own ass. You will be doing both of yourselves a huge favor.



When we broke up, I said that a promise is a promise. She said that I didn't have to do that i.e. pay the tuition.

Thanks for the input.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:44:14 AM EST
too bad, I'm a guy and here's my two cents for free...


you are a loser for not seeing the signs that she's not interested in you.

you kept trying to buy her, it wasn't / won't work.

I've been down this road, but never that bad.

be thankful you're out of it now!



oh, and LEARN from this. be very selfish with your money and more importantly, yourself. build up a relationship FIRST, before commiting any amount of cash/assets.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:47:27 AM EST
I am going to agree with the ladies here. This relationship sounds very onesided. If you backed out of paying her tuition, I wouldn't scream foul. The decision is completely yours. If it was me though, I would send her on her merry way without a dime of it.

Because of this war, there are alot of people holding together long distance relationships, it takes both parties to make it work though. It sounds to me like she doesn't want to put forth the effort to make it happen. I would say, be happy you found out earlier rather then later.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:53:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 3:54:59 AM EST by stony275]

Originally Posted By RED_5:
too bad, I'm a guy and here's my two cents for free...


you are a loser for not seeing the signs that she's not interested in you.

you kept trying to buy her, it wasn't / won't work.

I've been down this road, but never that bad.

be thankful you're out of it now!



oh, and LEARN from this. be very selfish with your money and more importantly, yourself. build up a relationship FIRST, before commiting any amount of cash/assets.



First of all a$$hole, I wasn't trying to "buy" her. It was her birthday or did you fail to read that as well? Secondly, we had been dating since December and this was July when I bought this stuff.

I thought I had the relationship first. Her crying at the airport when I left for Iraq seemed like genuine emotion, but not being a man of the world such as yourself, I'm sure you would have seen through that.

I'm guessing the need to chime in when you were requested not to, and then to hurl an insult on top of that somehow assuages your own inadequacies. I hope you feel better for it.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:11:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 4:25:20 AM EST by shaggy]
I know you didn't necessarily want to hear from guys but I'll throw my honest $.02 in - ignore it if you like.



For the most part, I have to agree with Red-5. Buying stuff is nice, and its great you're so generous, but it sounds like you were trying to buy her affections. It doesn't work that way... at least it doesn't often work out well. You need to spend time, not money, and let her get to like you for who you are, not what you can buy. You two may have had something nice before you went to Iraq, but it also sounds like she didn't care enough to deal with a long-distance relationship. Some people can handle a long distance thing, some can't. If she didn't have enough concern or care for you to even send a letter or card once in a while, however,, gifts were not going to remedy the situation, and if they were it probably wouldn't have been a good sign anyway. I like to keep my word even when its not convenient, so in that respect I think you should pay for the semester, but on the other hand you were obviously far more invested in the relationship than she was and maybe blinded by your desire for something to work out. I for one, would not blame you for not paying for the semeser, but you have to do whats in your heart and what leaves you with a free conscience.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:20:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By shaggy:
I know you didn't necessarily want to hear from guys but I'll throw my honest $.02 in - ignore it if you like.



For the most part, I have to agree with Red-5. Buying stuff is nice, and its great you're so generous, but it sounds like you were trying to buy her affections. It doesn't work that way... at least it doesn't often work out well. You need to spend time, not money, and let her get to like you for who you are, not what you can buy. You two may have had something nice before you went to Iraq, but it also sounds like she didn't care enough to deal with a long-distance relationship. If she didn't have enough concern or care for you to even send a letter or card once in a while, gifts were not going to remedy the situation, and if they were it probably wouldn't have been a good sign anyway.




What do you think I was doing from December to late April when I left? I was spending time with her. I would make dinner for her frequently and we would generally "hang out". A lot of assumptions are being made here that are way off base.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:28:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 4:34:03 AM EST by shaggy]

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By shaggy:
I know you didn't necessarily want to hear from guys but I'll throw my honest $.02 in - ignore it if you like.



For the most part, I have to agree with Red-5. Buying stuff is nice, and its great you're so generous, but it sounds like you were trying to buy her affections. It doesn't work that way... at least it doesn't often work out well. You need to spend time, not money, and let her get to like you for who you are, not what you can buy. You two may have had something nice before you went to Iraq, but it also sounds like she didn't care enough to deal with a long-distance relationship. If she didn't have enough concern or care for you to even send a letter or card once in a while, gifts were not going to remedy the situation, and if they were it probably wouldn't have been a good sign anyway.




What do you think I was doing from December to late April when I left? I was spending time with her. I would make dinner for her frequently and we would generally "hang out". A lot of assumptions are being made here that are way off base.



I completely understand that you two had something, but it just sounds like when you had to go, she wasn't invested enough in the relationship to really care. Maybe it was just the thought of a long distance relationship, or maybe she was trying to distance herself to protect herself in case something happened to you. But it sounds like your leaving was a pivitol event and she lost interest at that point. However, for whatever reason, I don't think gifts were going to change that.

Maybe I've completely misunderstood, and if I have, I apologize. But thats just my read on the situation.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:38:05 AM EST
<---another guy checking in



Dude, you're nuts if you spend another penny on her.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:12:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 5:12:56 AM EST by diabolical_chicken]

Originally Posted By shaggy:

I completely understand that you two had something, but it just sounds like when you had to go, she wasn't invested enough in the relationship to really care. Maybe it was just the thought of a long distance relationship, or maybe she was trying to distance herself to protect herself in case something happened to you. But it sounds like your leaving was a pivitol event and she lost interest at that point. However, for whatever reason, I don't think gifts were going to change that.

Maybe I've completely misunderstood, and if I have, I apologize. But thats just my read on the situation.



a lady agreeing with with one of the guys--sorry stony, this is what it seems to be to me, too

the other angle i can see: she realized when you flew her to germany and bought her all those things (which is nice, but its expensive), you care more than she does and decided to end the relationship rather than continue mooching off you
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:31:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By stony275:

When we broke up, I said that a promise is a promise. She said that I didn't have to do that i.e. pay the tuition.

Thanks for the input.



I understand your dilemma and can empathize as I am the same type of person. I too would have a most difficult time backing out on something that I promised.

However, not only is she telling you she does not want to continue with the relationship, she also stated that she doesn't expect you to pay for her tuition. As difficult as it is, listen to her words with your ears and not your heart, and let this one go.

You sound like an incredibly caring and giving person. Don't waste your time and money on someone who isn't reciprocating your feelings and intentions.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:43:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:

Originally Posted By stony275:

When we broke up, I said that a promise is a promise. She said that I didn't have to do that i.e. pay the tuition.

Thanks for the input.



I understand your dilemma and can empathize as I am the same type of person. I too would have a most difficult time backing out on something that I promised.

However, not only is she telling you she does not want to continue with the relationship, she also stated that she doesn't expect you to pay for her tuition. As difficult as it is, listen to her words with your ears and not your heart, and let this one go.

You sound like an incredibly caring and giving person. Don't waste your time and money on someone who isn't reciprocating your feelings and intentions.

+1

It is wonderful that you are a man of your word, but she has allready said that she doesn't expect it. Let her go, then spend the money on yourself.

I am sorry that it turned out this way, but there are plenty of women out there who would be honored to wait for you while you were away.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:45:35 AM EST
I know you gave her your word, however she has given you and "out". she released you from your commitment and I think you should graciously accept that and RUN! I'm sorry it didn't work out.
I understand that you weren't trying to buy her affection with the gifts, they most likely came from your heart. however she has not reciprocated and you deserve in the very least some appreciation.
Honestly I wouldn't pay for her school. You have done enough and if she really needs the money for school she could always sell the jewelry that you got her

In the future you may want to be a little bit more stingy with the expensive gifts. I know they mean a lot to you ... and I am not saying it as a criticism. My husband is the same way as you with the gifts and I have had to tell him to tone it down. When I ask for a bracelet, a $10 (ok maybe $20) nice bracelet will do..it does not have to be a diamond tennis bracelet (why are they called that???). As long as it is given as a token of affection that is all that matters.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:53:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:02:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 10:04:06 AM EST by GabbasaurusRex]
Maybe she was interested in the beginning. Maybe she was still interested when you left for Iraq. But maybe for her, it was one of those things where "hey, he's still giving me stuff, as long as he's paying for the trip, why not come over?" I don't doubt that you two had something; but it seems like she wasn't giving enough, if she was even giving anything.

Bottom line: Don't shell out the money. But something nice for yourself instead, like a rifle. It'll remind you that a gun is always more reliable than a flaky woman.

EDIT: You WILL find another woman who will reciprocate all the time and emotion you give her. You're a great find; someone worthy will snag you.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 12:48:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Break the promise you made her and spend that money better elsewhere.
Take this from a lifelong good boy who always came in last.



I think what DoubleFeed is really trying to say here is that you should break that promise to her and get me that Barrett M468-A1 Tactical Carbine in 6.8x43mm SPC that I've had my heart set on
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 12:59:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
<---another guy checking in



Dude, you're nuts if you spend another penny on her.



+1
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:18:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:01:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 7:08:19 AM EST by Ogre_4070]
1. She never sent a card or letter.

2. Never left a voice mail on my stateside cell phone

3. She pawned off the mailing of it (stuff you requested) to her younger sister who never got around to it

4. There wasn't even a note from her in it.

And yet:

1. I flew her to Germany to spend my two week vacation with me. I paid for her airfare.

2. I gave her a saltwater cultured pearl necklace as well as some high end perfume.

3. While in Germany and Italy I bought her a Swarovski necklace, shoes, silver earrings and rings, a watch and a dress.

4. I even gave her money to buy her friends souveniors

You seem to be a bit defensive about this but you did ask. You sound like a really sweet caring guy who has been taken advantage of by this girl. You have done all of the giving and she has taken it without any problem. This appears to be a case of "out of sight, out of mind". From your post it seems that as long as you were around things were fine but once you went away she more or less forgot about you. Had I been in this situation, you would have been inundated with cards and letters, emails and maybe even phone calls (although I hate talking on the phone). Just knowing that you were in Iraq and the situation there, I would have sent you the requested items immediately along with a care package, a note and something to remind you of me. This is what a caring relationship would be like if it were equal - if she was putting as much into it as you were.

At least she had the decency to tell you that you didn't have to pay the tuition. Although that may have been her way of asking if you were intending to still pay. I would not pay for anything else for this girl and I would not feel bad about not paying the tuition. Unless you just enjoy and can afford handing out scholarships, that is.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:16:59 PM EST
with all due respect -- sounds like shes wearing her tuition

small gifts are nice, but big ones should be saved until after the wedding.

if she couldnt handle being away from you for a few months and couldnt do small things like cards and phone calls, then she isnt the one you want for a long term thing.

again with all due respect -- it doesnt seem you were in her mind too much, so it makes me wonder if she found someone else to occupy her time.
maybe not (i hope not), i wasnt there, but its something to think about. get a DNA test if she turns up prego, its real hard to trust women these days and i keep seeing guys getting their lives screwed over by them.
not all women, just some.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:47:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Break the promise you made her and spend that money better elsewhere.
Take this from a lifelong good boy who always came in last.



I think what DoubleFeed is really trying to say here is that you should break that promise to her and get me that Barrett M468-A1 Tactical Carbine in 6.8x43mm SPC that I've had my heart set on



Nice try SigZiggy. If I knew what you looked like in a Victoria's Secret corset you might and I emphasize might have a chance.

I called my credit union yesterday and put a stop payment on the check that was sent to the college savings plan. As it stands the money will go towards an executive protection driving course I plan on taking during vacation back in the States and a 16" 6.8 mm SPC upper built by Steve of ADCO Firearms.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:49:07 AM EST
Wise decision stony!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:11:09 AM EST
Glad you saw the light ; good decision IMO.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:15:00 AM EST
I wasn't trying to be an asshole, just a little "tough love", if you will

I did mention I've been down this road before.

We are both simillar people, we both desirve better than we've gotten in the past. Just remember to be yourself, you won't have to "prove" anything to the 'right one'
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:16:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Break the promise you made her and spend that money better elsewhere.
Take this from a lifelong good boy who always came in last.



I think what DoubleFeed is really trying to say here is that you should break that promise to her and get me that Barrett M468-A1 Tactical Carbine in 6.8x43mm SPC that I've had my heart set on



Nice try SigZiggy. If I knew what you looked like in a Victoria's Secret corset you might and I emphasize might have a chance.

I called my credit union yesterday and put a stop payment on the check that was sent to the college savings plan. As it stands the money will go towards an executive protection driving course I plan on taking during vacation back in the States and a 16" 6.8 mm SPC upper built by Steve of ADCO Firearms.



Now your speaking my language Spend that money on YOURSELF. Make sure to post a pic of that upper and I'll do the same when I get mine!

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:38:26 AM EST

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:47:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!

Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:50:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!




I'm not the one with the leather corset.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:50:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!


+1, PICS! PICS! PICS!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:54:21 AM EST
I'm ashamed to admit, I don't know how to post a pic on here. I'm willing to post a few of my "gunslinger in Baghdad" pics but I do expect quid pro quo from SigZiggy.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:54:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By cat_aclysm:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!


+1, PICS! PICS! PICS!



Yes...there seems to be no photo of you available in the hotties thread. Hmmmm, I will have to hold back on my photo until the ladies get what they are asking for
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:55:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!




I'm not the one with the leather corset.



Hey, I'll send you one if you'll post pics!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:58:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ogre_4070:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!




I'm not the one with the leather corset.



Hey, I'll send you one if you'll post pics!



Ain't gonna happen amigo.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:00:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ogre_4070:

Originally Posted By stony275:

I'm not the one with the leather corset.



Hey, I'll send you one if you'll post pics!





Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:03:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By Ogre_4070:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!




I'm not the one with the leather corset.



Hey, I'll send you one if you'll post pics!



Ain't gonna happen amigo.




I had to try!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:28:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ogre_4070:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By stony275:

Oh....I don't happen to have a corset from Victoria's Secret, but I do have one from Noir Leather


Now it's time for the obligitory ARFCOM

This thread is worthless without pics!



yours or hers????

i vote YOURS!!!!!!!!




I'm not the one with the leather corset.



Hey, I'll send you one if you'll post pics!



This I would love to see!!!
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 6:02:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 6:41:35 PM EST by diabolical_chicken]
ok, ladies, its not in a leather corset, but these are pics stony emailed me

handsome dude, huh??



Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:24:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
ok, ladies, its not in a leather corset, but these are pics stony emailed me

handsome dude, huh??

img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/diabolicalchicken/BaseOfSword.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/diabolicalchicken/BaseSwordSolo.jpg



Something tells me we still won't see SigZiggy in a leather corset.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:24:11 PM EST
now there's a handsome man!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:58:33 PM EST
(the mother of all hijacked threads)
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:08:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By RED_5:
(the mother of all hijacked threads)


Ladies, we have a new acronym: MOAHT

Thanks Red...that one should get some heavy use around here.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:16:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 7:16:48 PM EST by SigZiggy]
Can we help it if we are distracted by HOTDs????

I think not

BTW: DC, did you post these in the hotties thread???
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:21:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:
BTW: DC, did you post these in the hotties thread???



no, the agreement was to post them here--tell the man to IM or email me if he wants them in hotties
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:28:51 PM EST
Thank you Persephone, SigZiggy and Diabolical.

You have my permission to post in HOTD.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:52:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 2:54:06 AM EST by MrsGungho]
GRRWWWLLLLL

yep yep, he has my approval.


edited to add... I would love to see the eyes. The eyes, you can't tell the whole story without the eyes.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:43:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
<---another guy checking in



Dude, you're nuts if you spend another penny on her.



+1
However, I'd be glad to let you pay for my classes if ya really feel like giving out money, but there's no way I'll dress up like a woman for ya
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:32:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrsGungho:
GRRWWWLLLLL

yep yep, he has my approval.


edited to add... I would love to see the eyes. The eyes, you can't tell the whole story without the eyes.



Well thank you MrsGungho. I'll try to find a recent pic that shows my eyes.

I appreciate the advice you ladies gave. I decided not to fund her of college. I'm going to use the money to buy a 6.8 mm upper and a CZ75 for myself and something for my parent's home whether it be landscaping or a new driveway.

Am I on the HOTD thread?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:35:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:35:33 AM EST
You are in the hottie's thread. Even better! Dems the real menz of ARFCOM
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