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Posted: 4/3/2002 11:26:56 PM EDT
It is entirely possible for someone to disagree w/ Israel's policies & actions, yet not wave the "Yasser flag," or be pro-Palestinian. I will concede that while most of Eric's posts are well reasoned, he have gotten quite zealous lately & is unable to respectfully accept opinions in opposition to his w/out branding people "Yasser flag wavers" or terrorist supporters. What's happening over there is sheer madness on both sides & it needs to stop. Our President needs to tell both sides to simmer down, not just the Palestinians - as this entire thing is detrimental to our interests in the area, not to mention horrible to behold as a human being. Yes, Israel is sometimes right. Sometimes they are wrong. Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers. Americans who question this govt's BLIND (yes, blind) support of a questionable ally (Israel) are not terrorist supporters. Both you & Steyr need to simmer down yourselves. If you (any of you) want to couch the debate in Zionist BS, religious vitriol, anti-semitic crap, or revolutionary propaganda I'm done w/ this bullsh*t conversation on this board. I'll stick to gun talk & other BS. This conflict is hell, for all involved, OK? I am increasingly disturbed by the poorly thought out responses to such threads on this board, by people I thought were better educated than what their responses reveal. While I have never been in a war, I have read my history well & know enough about it not to ever wish for it, or destruction of any kind, on any people. Sometimes it happens, but that doesn't mean we should all blindingly accept it. In closing I will state that Yasser is a gigantic turd, but Sharon equals him in fecal girth. For every wrong Arafat has committed, Sharon has committed one equal. They are political pigs, taking advantage of the poor, powerless, & uneducated. For us to support EITHER one of them is sick, wrong, & inherently un-American. Good night now.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 11:44:51 PM EDT
[shock] [flame] [argue] [dracula] [;D]
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 11:52:49 PM EDT
LMAO! Bus, I think the only relevant smiley missing is the one puking...
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:14:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jobux: Our President needs to tell both sides to simmer down...
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Our president needs to stop giving Israel M16s and F15s, and start giving them more tactical nukes to use. Hell, if we're going to give them billions of dollars per year, might as well make it cost effective. Eradicate terrorist Palestine and all the Yasser flag waving pukes who support it. What? are you a Frenchmen?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:28:38 AM EDT
If you want a different point of view: [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=57840[/url]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:45:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 12:48:15 AM EDT by Tate]
jobux wrote:
While I have never been in a war, I have read my history well & know enough about it [blue]not to ever wish for[/blue] it, or [blue]destruction of any kind, on any people.[/blue]
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I understand, for the most part, the spirit of your post. That being said, I think maybe you went overboard a bit on your sentiments. I wish not for war - good people get killed along with the bad in war. I do wish and pray for the [b][red]TOTAL DESTRUCTION[/red][/b] of all peoples, cultures, faiths, political parties, baseball teams - whatever - that are enemies of this nation. Very sad that good men will die fighting if that total destruction is to be acheived. Tate
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:45:50 AM EDT
ok,I realize I am going to open myself for flames etc., but I have to say it no racism intended: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico. On 9/11 this country was attacked by terrorist, we declared war on terrorism. Israel has been continuously attacked by terrorist, they have the same rights to protect themselves as we due.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:10:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jobux: In closing I will state that Yasser is a gigantic turd, but Sharon equals him in fecal girth.
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Quite an image you present! Hee Hee
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:23:44 AM EDT
Post from eagle1911 -
If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico.
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Correctomundo! That is the whole truth of the story! We would never, ever accept what we expect Israel to accept! Why do we expect Israel to accept it? Simply so that we could still be invited to posh parties at the Saudi Embassy in Georgetown! Simply so we would not be attacked by the New York Times and the Washington Post! How friggin decent of us! Eric The(Fug'Em!ISay)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:30:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eagle1911: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico. On 9/11 this country was attacked by terrorist, we declared war on terrorism. Israel has been continuously attacked by terrorist, they have the same rights to protect themselves as we due.
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Ding, Ding!!!!!! We have a winner. Any arguments on this one??
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:35:52 AM EDT
[sleep]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:39:08 AM EDT
It's the economy stupid! This is all about oil. The US has pledged support to Israel. We buy 60% of our oil from Arabs. Can you say major conflict of interest. We ask the Israelis to accept what we would not because we don't want to stop our oil flow from the Arabs. The Arabs don't want to lose their revenues from our oil purchases. This is why the Arabs talk shit about America but still ship tankers full of petroleum over here every day. A major cause of this problem is the environmentalists who oppose drilling for domestic oil. You have to make decsions based on intellect and not political causes. Will domestic production cause some environmental damage? Sure. What is the tradeoff? Continuing to buy Arab oil does nothing more than make our enemies more powerful financially and increase our vulnerablity in the event we do go to war with an Arabic country (Iraq) from an embargo. Anyone remember the 70's? Once we free ourselves from our dependence on foreign oil we place ourselves in a much better position to mount our war on terror.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:39:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By USP40C:
Originally Posted By eagle1911: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico. On 9/11 this country was attacked by terrorist, we declared war on terrorism. Israel has been continuously attacked by terrorist, they have the same rights to protect themselves as we due.
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Ding, Ding!!!!!! We have a winner. Any arguments on this one??
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I have a argument. If they had not invaded the Area then they wouldnt be under terrorist attack cause they wouldnt exist.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:45:53 AM EDT
Are you referring to the Arab invasion in 1967? You also ASSUME, that the SOLE reason that these savages want to kill Israeli citizens, is the occupation. Before there was an occupation, the Palestinians and other Arabs wanted the Jews all dead. What was their reason, then? Did they drop that reason, and change it to the occupation thing? Or is the occupation just a means to rationalize/justify their age-old hatred?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:11:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eagle1911: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico.
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Thing is, we have extended our hands before and before over and over again to protect the PALs and other Arabists in the neighborhood from the "evil" Israelis before, most notably in Beruit during the 80s. We managed to restore basic civil order in our section of Beruit, and we protected the people of our area from the Israelis, and what did we get repaid with? [b]A FVKING TRUCK BOMB IN THE MARINE BARRACKS![/b] We were the only damn thing keeping the Israelis from just re-occupying the West bank during the 90s after the various bombings, and how did we get repaid? With Ulalalaling bitches dancing in the streets on 9/11. Let the PALs burn in hell. We put our honor on the line for them, and they spat in our faces.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:21:02 AM EDT
All Arabs are not the same. All Muslims are not the same. All Mid-East terrorist groups ARE one and the same. They should all die. Every, single one of them. AND their friends. AND anyone who so much as smirked upon hearing about the 9/11 attacks. Dead.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:31:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: All Arabs are not the same. All Muslims are not the same. All Mid-East terrorist groups ARE one and the same. They should all die. Every, single one of them. AND their friends. AND anyone who so much as smirked upon hearing about the 9/11 attacks. Dead.
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Close enough. The only ones that didn't smirk were the ones saying "Oh sh!t!! We're in for it now!"
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:35:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: All Arabs are not the same. All Muslims are not the same. All Mid-East terrorist groups ARE one and the same. They should all die. Every, single one of them. AND their friends. AND anyone who so much as smirked upon hearing about the 9/11 attacks. Dead.
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Let us forget the global economy, Hell lets forget any other country but the USA matters, and watch what happends. Those incapapble of viewing the world in a global matter are the most ignorant fools.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:37:40 AM EDT
When it's over, we'll be on top again. After all, we ARE the global economy.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:51:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: When it's over, we'll be on top again. After all, we ARE the global economy.
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Incorrect. But what can one expect from the product of years of intensive propaganda.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:02:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow: Those incapable of viewing the world in a global matter are the most ignorant fools.
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Those who do believe in a global inter-locked economy might take a look at the gasoline pump prices. Prices at the pump have increased at the fastest rate ever recorded - almost 1 cent/day. (Prices have increased $.25 in the last 30 days.) Now the U.S. public had just started to travel again and the season of highest demand is still a month or so away. If the insanity does not stop we'll be looking at $2.00 per gallon for regular before year's end. I don't know what will happen to prices should next winter be harsh. Higher gasoline prices will fuel inflation, inflation will drive interest rates higher, higher interest rates will probably cause the stock-markets to decline and a decline in stock prices slows business expansion and reduces jobs causing (obviously) unemployment to increase. As the majority of us are independently wealthy only others will be affected.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:09:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By Scarecrow: Those incapable of viewing the world in a global matter are the most ignorant fools.
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Those who do believe in a global inter-locked economy might take a look at the gasoline pump prices. Prices at the pump have increased at the fastest rate ever recorded - almost 1 cent/day. (Prices have increased $.25 in the last 30 days.) Now the U.S. public had just started to travel again and the season of highest demand is still a month or so away. If the insanity does not stop we'll be looking at $2.00 per gallon for regular before year's end. I don't know what will happen to prices should next winter be harsh. Higher gasoline prices will fuel inflation, inflation will drive interest rates higher, higher interest rates will probably cause the stock-markets to decline and a decline in stock prices slows business expansion and reduces jobs causing (obviously) unemployment to increase. As the majority of us are independently wealthy only others will be affected.
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Do you know why those prices go up? the USA produces half of all the oil it consumes and relies very little on oil from the middle east, but since oil has only one price all over the world, if oil goes up in price in areas that use huge ammounts of oil from the middle east, it drives the prices up everywhere else in the world.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:10:54 AM EDT
[b]Subsailor[/b] are you passing along unverified scuttlebutt again?[:D] It reminds me of a Rush headline I saw once: [size=5]New York Times[/size=5] [size=5]Scientists: World To End Tomorrow![/size=5] [size=3]- Women and Minorities To Be Hardest Hit -[/size=3] The gasoline prices started going up long before Israel went into Ramallah, but some will claim otherwise. Eric The(YouKnow,TheAnti-IsraeliIdiots)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:18:51 AM EDT
Eric- Answer this question? Why is that you Rush fans always make personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you? Then if you start to loose you justify it with biblical quotes? I'm just curious, it seems like its a pattern to me. -SS
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:28:52 AM EDT
First of all we will not be on top CHINA will be. Everyone discounts China they are sitting back and watching then pick up the pieces. Oil prices going up nothing to do with this. Every year around Easter the prices go up. This is our own Government letting it happen. $$$$ is $$$$. They will use any excuse. Don't forget the oil being used today was bought months if not years ago. So the price they deal on with OPEC is never really what you get. When you buy oil for your home it is based on what the dealer bought last year and in reserve. So last year I got oil for $1.13/gal when this year it went to $1.24/gal. The price for oil was more last year than this. His reserves were more expensive when he bought last year. Sometimes they hold the reserve and give fair market value related for a 2-Month prior period. Stop selling weapons to anyone you want our economy to get worse. We sell to our enemies and then send our children in to die and blow it up. The Government don't care about your children. All they see is $$$$$$.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:31:22 AM EDT
This is exactly why I've stayed out of these threads. Simple minded people who think that killing all the Palestinians is going to solve the terrorist problem. Idiots.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:31:35 AM EDT
Post from SouthernShark -
Eric - Answer this question?
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Be delighted to, my son.
Why is that you Rush fans always make personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you?
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Speaking only for myself as a fan of Rush, I seldom make personal attacks without some sort of provocation on the other side's part. I will wait for my opponent to throw a stone before I clobber him with a tactical nuke. It's only fair. And being fair is what REAL AMERICANS (whatever [u]that[/u] may mean) are all about!
Then if you start to loose you justify it with biblical quotes?
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Hmmm, since I've never felt that I was losing in any of the thousands of arguments I've had, I don't know how to answer your question. Ask someone else, who's always losing arguments, to see what their justification might be. Could you cite for me one of the many Biblical quotes I may have made that you feel might be unjustified?
I'm just curious, it seems like its a pattern to me.
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Well, then, if it's a pattern you should have no trouble in pointing such an instance out to me and shaming me before the whole Board! Such power you have, SouthernShark! Go, even now I feel the blade being raised above my bare neck. I am at your mercy. Have at it![:\] Eric The(WhatDoYouBetWeWon'tSeeHimSoon?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:36:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Such power you have, SouthernShark! Go, even now I feel the blade being raised above my bare neck. I am at your mercy. Have at it![:\] Eric The(WhatDoYouBetWeWon'tSeeHimSoon?)Hun[>]:)]
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S. Shark, a word of caution here. Be extremely wary of "HUNs" offering bare necks !
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:45:19 AM EDT
EricTheHun, you are by far the most fun individual to have a discussion with. Keep up the good(?) work.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:50:05 AM EDT
Thank you, [b]Scarecrow[/b], I do what I can with my admittedly limited resources. Just remember, in real life I am a fourteen year old girl of dubious heritage. So you must take [u]everything[/u] I say here with a large grain of salt. Does that make everyone feel better? Or worse? Just thought I'd brighten (or darken) your day! Eric The(Ciao!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:00:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:33:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 7:35:02 AM EDT by rogerb]
It always amazes me how Eric and a few others just gloss over or totally ignore how Israel came to be, thus ignoring the real problem. How anyone can call that land grab the birth of a nation is way beyond me. To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:50:24 AM EDT
WTF does the price of gas have to do w/ anything? Other than Saudi, we have the cheapest freaking gas prices on Earth! Most other places it's 5 bucks a gallon. Just b/c you're used to paying 1 dollar doesn't mean it's some kind of a freaking right. If it goes to 2 or 3 or 4 bucks it's incumbent on YOU to change YOUR lifestyle, not incumbent on our country to send its young men & women off to die just so it doesn't cost $200 a week to fill up your Excursion. Look, I drive a big ass truck, but don't think for a minute that I wouldn't make it a "garage queen" or sell it if gas went through the roof. Gas prices are not a reason to go to war or get Americans killed over. Anyway, we get most of our gas from Mexico & Venezuela I think, w/ Russia up & coming. Better them than our oh-so-trustworthy Arab friends.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:03:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: It always amazes me how Eric and a few others just gloss over or totally ignore how Israel came to be, thus ignoring the real problem. How anyone can call that land grab the birth of a nation is way beyond me. To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ?
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roger, this crowd is made of pacifist ! (NOT !) I believe the truth is if we were Israeli our actions and attitudes would closely mirror that of Israel. If we were Palestinian our attitudes and actions would likely mirror those of the Palestinians. Neither the Israeli nor the Palestinian positions are worthy of U.S. support.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:08:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 9:11:33 AM EDT by muzlblast]
[/ Anyway, we get most of our gas from Mexico & Venezuela I think, w/ Russia up & coming.] Not true, currently about 60% of our oil supply is imported from OPEC.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:00:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 10:01:11 AM EDT by eswanson]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:06:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
Originally Posted By USP40C:
Originally Posted By eagle1911: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico. On 9/11 this country was attacked by terrorist, we declared war on terrorism. Israel has been continuously attacked by terrorist, they have the same rights to protect themselves as we due.
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Ding, Ding!!!!!! We have a winner. Any arguments on this one??
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I have a argument. If they had not invaded the Area then they wouldnt be under terrorist attack cause they wouldnt exist.
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they didn't invade, dipshit. they fought back [i]when they were invaded[/i] and as a result got some extra real estate. kinda like what every one here was screaming for in regards to afghanistan, heh? get your history straight!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:08:15 AM EDT
5subslr5 - I agree with your sentiments 100%, but I can only see 2 ways to ever end this, 1) one side kills off the other (not going to happen) 2) a third party has their own incursion (Israeli "PC" for invasion), divides the place in half w/a DMZ free fire zone and be done with it. Or it just never ends, as they can never live together as both sides have too much hate for one another.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:13:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: It always amazes me how Eric and a few others just gloss over or totally ignore how Israel came to be, thus ignoring the real problem. How anyone can call that land grab the birth of a nation is way beyond me. To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ?
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i guess you need to get the history straight too. it wasn't a land grab. the palestinians never have 100% autonomous control over this piece of real estate. the british relinquished claim to it. maybe that's why it was called British Palestine before it was called Israel. not to mention that i've heard a lot of stories how the so-called Palestinians moved in during British rule and basically behaved like lazy, red-headed step children, while the Jews who moved there (partially to escape Nazi oppression) were attempting to be productive and self-sufficient. granted, this is a bit oversimplified, but it sure as hell is more accurate than your ridiculous accusation of land grabbing. by the way, we "grabbed" this land from the British (who previously grabbed it from the French, Dutch, Spanish, Native Americans, etc) and birthed our own nation, so to speak. is USA now illegitimate too?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:53:01 AM EDT
I still say the best way to end this is for the US to withdraw monetary support for [b]both sides[/b]. What does this have to do with America? Are our lives in danger because of a two thousand year old dispute in the middle east? It's like watching the Nazis battle the Communists, you're not sure who to root for.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:51:18 AM EDT
Amen, ARlady.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:00:22 PM EDT
It always amazes me how Eric and a few others just gloss over or totally ignore how Israel came to be, thus ignoring the real problem. How anyone can call that land grab the birth of a nation is way beyond me. To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ? ________________________________________ Rogerb ...how Israel came to be? How about this... Deu 34:1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan, Deu 34:2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, Deu 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed ...the promise is actually made earlier in the book, but this sort of lays out all the boundries for the deed in one passage. So now...who is glossing over how Israel came to be? JET(HelpingTheHunBeatBackHisDetractors)CSA[:D]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:04:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: It always amazes me how Eric and a few others just gloss over or totally ignore how Israel came to be, thus ignoring the real problem. How anyone can call that land grab the birth of a nation is way beyond me. To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ?
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We are responsible for this mess. What we did to European Jews in refusing to give them sanctuary before World War II was directly responsible for convincing the survivors that they would only be safe again in a all Jewish state. And then, we never enforced the 1947 partition. What are today "The Occupied Territories" WERE given to the Palistinian Muslims by the UN. But when the 1948 War ended- they were seized by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt instead of being given to the Palistinians. And no one did anything about it. Until the Israelis took them off the Arab countries to stop the bombing and shelling of their cities The only way to peace is the expulsion of the Palistinian Muslims. Especally those in the Refugee camps. The land cannot go back to Arab control- all that would mean is that they would substitute rocket and mortar attacks for suicide bombers. And we wind up with the same level of terror. And another point. Anyone who tries to eqivocate what the Israelis are going to have to do to the Palistinians and what the Nazis did in WWII is full of shit. The Jews, the Gypsies, even the Communitsts did NOT blow up buildings in Germany. They did not murder German women and children, for the most part they did not ever resist their own murders. The Palistinian Muslims had their chance, in fact they have had at least THREE chances, to stop this shit and make peace with Israel. The first was falling for the propaganda spread by the Arab states that the Jews were going to exterminate them following the defeat of the Arab armies in 48. They beleved this because THEY had intended to exterminate the Jews to begin with and expected the Jews to react AS THE PALISTINIANS THEMSELVES WOULD. Those Muslims who lived within the Jewish zone and knew Jews better, knew this wasn't true and STAYED. Those few hundred thousand who didn't run are the parents of the 1.5 Million Isreali Arabs who are citizens, have the vote, are protected by law and have lived peaceful and prosperous lives within Isreal proper. The second chance was in 1967, when the Israelis kicked out the Jordainians, Egyptians and Syrians who were illegally occupying land that had been given to Palistinian Muslims in 1948. There they had a chance to see what had happend in the intervening 20 years to the Israeli Arabs, and could have chosen to live in peace alongside the Jews as the Israeli Arabs had. Instead thosands fled AGAIN to first Jordan and then Lebanon- and in both places wound up getting kicked out after trying to overthrow the local governments. While those who didn't run created new terror organizations and continuted to attack Jews any way the could. The Israeli Arabs, instead of being embraced were denounced as trators to their people and their faith.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:06:53 PM EDT
The third and final chance was when Arafat rejected the plan brought forth by Barak and Clinton. Barak may have never been able to deliver, most Isrealis- thanks to universal conscription- understand fully the military concequences of withdrawing to the 1967 border line. But Arafats rejection saved the Jews from that embarrasing situation. Its not clear weather he did this because he thought Hamas would kill him, or because, like Fidel Castro, he needs a continuing revolutionary struggle to maintain his position. But worst of all his people backed him, when they should have put a bullet in his head as soon as he stepped off the plane in Gaza. The Palistinan people have now, and always have had, the option to take to the streets, and releve Arafat from power and remove Hamas, Islami Jihad, and Hezbullah from their lands. They know who the members are and where they hide. Instead they condone their actions and cheer on the suicide bombers. They must suffer the consequences of their actions. It is not good to inflict such suffering on these people, women and children will be hurt, but what alternative is there? Their stubborn support for their demented leaders, no different from the behavior of the German and Japanese peoples in World War II, leave Israel little choice in the matter.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:08:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
Originally Posted By USP40C:
Originally Posted By eagle1911: If 9 to 10 Mexicans crossed the US border each month and blew themselves up in malls, theaters, and churches, the 1 cavalry division, the 82 airborne, and the 101 airborne to name a few would walk, crawl and shoot their way from northern Mexico to southern Mexico until the country was under total control of the United States. End of Mexico. On 9/11 this country was attacked by terrorist, we declared war on terrorism. Israel has been continuously attacked by terrorist, they have the same rights to protect themselves as we due.
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Ding, Ding!!!!!! We have a winner. Any arguments on this one??
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I have a argument. If they had not invaded the Area then they wouldnt be under terrorist attack cause they wouldnt exist.
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I don't think it's alltogether reasonable to call it "invading" when Israel's borders were violated first, and the conflict was started by others aggression towards Israel. If you fire the first shot then don't whine when you lose your land. Do they teach a different history there in Canada or someting? God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:16:11 PM EDT
GodBlessTexas "Invading" is an ingrained term with some folks. Many referred to it as "invading" when we took THE FIGHT any further north than northern Virginia![rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:40:22 PM EDT
I think Scarecrow meant that the Jews moving to Palistine after World War II was the invasion guys. Except that the Jews do have a right to be there. The only time there has been no Jews in Jerusalem was when the Crusaders held it. Otherwise there have always been Jews in the Old City. And scattered in other settlements across the holy land. The Bible is the weakest confermation of the Jewish right to live there. Archiology has confirmed most of what the Bible has stated as to where Jews historicly came from. They do have a claim to that land too. What scarcrow also refuses to acknowledge is that, to a Holocaust survivor, none of this meant much. They knew from their experiance that they could only be safe in a country governed by fellow Jews. Everyone else, INCLUDING the US had sold them out, and killed off their families and friends in the most horrable manners. Not to mention the suffering the survivors went through from hunger, torture, and exposure. And then some of their "Liberators"- namely the British, French, and Russians- treated the survivors very poorly in the "displaced persons" camps that they controlled. To these people it didn't matter much where they went to as long as it wasn't under the control of Gentiles. Palistine was only chosen because of the power vacume caused by the British withdrawl and the presence of the pre war Zionist colonies. The traditional claim to Jerusalem was probably the last reason most people went there. It would only later become important when they began to have pangs of consiousness over what happened to so many of the Palistinians. But in 1947 and 48 it was about survival, and about finally finding safety and getting in control of their own lives, something non-Jewish Americans take for granted.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:55:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: 5subslr5 - I agree with your sentiments 100%, but I can only see 2 ways to ever end this, 1) one side kills off the other (not going to happen) 2) a third party has their own incursion (Israeli "PC" for invasion), divides the place in half w/a DMZ free fire zone and be done with it. Or it just never ends, as they can never live together as both sides have too much hate for one another.
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Again we agree. I'm not an ardent supporter of either Israel or Palestine and care mostly about the United States, Canada and Great Britain. However, if I believe the introduction of U.S. troops as peace keepers is the only short-term solution and this I would back. (UN peace-keepers just would not work.) Giving the Palestinians a country of their own also means they must make it work.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:31:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: To the best of my knowledge the Palestinians weren't standing on the shores waving signs that said free country, come and get it. I don't support the civilian bombings, but... if some world powers divided up your homeland, then spent billions a year making sure the new owners had the best weaponry etc. while you basically had none how would you fight back ?
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Doesn't anyone remember history? The Middle East was controlled by The French and the UK after WWI, with the UK controlling the particular spot of land in question. Why did they control the land? Because the Ottoman Empire, the former controler, got it's ass handed to it during WWI. It's also important to remember that between the 16th and 20th centuries Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. didn't even exist! They were just a bunch of mostly tribal arabs living in loosely organize communities across the entire region, all of which were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. When the British took over the area that is now Israel, there were already an estimated 85,000-100,000 Jews in the area of a sum population of aproximately 600,000. Most of the Arabs living there had migrated there because of jobs provided by Jewish building and farming. The cause for a Jewish state was championed by Earl Aurthur Balfour after he struck up a friendship with Chaim Weizmann. For you gun lovers, Weizmann invented artifical acetone, a key ingredient in gunpowder, and the invention of artificial acetone allowed the British to mass-produce gunpowder for their war effort. Balfour even declared his intentions in what is now known as the Balfour Decleration, which was issued to Lord Rothchild in the form of a letter on Nov. 2nd, 1917. However, Britain was much more pro-arab, and proceded to start carving out Arab states, with the first being the creation of Iraq in 1921 with Faisal ibn Hussein as king. It also bears mentioning that Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world, just behind Saudi Arabia, and it was shortly after Iraq's inception that Iraqi oil started flowing to the West. Jordan was created in 1927, with Abdullah ibn Hussein as king. Both Abdullah and Faisal were the sons of Hussein the Sherif of Mecca, who trace their ancestry back to the Hashemites, the tribe of Mohammed, founder of Islam. These people have traditionally been the keepers of the Holy City of Mecca. Notice that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was founded in 1932, with King Abdul Aziz Bin Abdul Rahman Al-Saud as a way of paying back the Ibn Saud of the Arabian Peninsula, who fought the Turks alongside the British during WWI. Giving Jordan and Iraq to sons of The Sherif of Mecca was a way of paying them off without giving them Mecca. During this time, the British never got around to making a Jewish state, yet more Jews imigrated to the area, with some 365,000+ jews migrating to the area between 1919 and 1939. -continued-
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:34:08 PM EDT
It was during 1929 that rumors of Jews destroying the Al-Aqsa Mosque caused the slaughter of over 133 Jews and 399 wounded. The worst massacres were in Hebron, a city sacred to Jews and Muslim both, with 67 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered with their throats cut and bodies mutilated. 1930 brought more massacres and riots, prompting the British to convene the Peel Commission. This commission issued a report in 1937 that said Jews should be limited to the small piece of land along the Mediterranian coast and a small piece in the north abutting the west side of Lake Kineret, better known as the Sea of Galilee. Arabs greeted the Peel Commission report with more riots and a revolt that lasted well into 1939. The revolt against the British was led by Haj Amin Husseini, who was selected by the British as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The British did everything they could to stop the rioting, including shelling of rebellious towns and demolition of housing. The revolt finally ended when the Mufti fled to Beruit and later to Europe where he became a friend of Hitler and organized Bosnian SS death squads to kill Jews in the Balkans. He was last known living as a guest of Saudi Arabia. It also bears noting that Faisal Husseini, the Mufti's relative, was the PLO's representative in Jerusalem until he died of a heart attack. After the riots were quelled, the British limited Jewish migration to the area to 12,000 per year, even after the passing of the Nuremberg Laws and the Kristallnacht which showed the Nazi's intentions towards the Jews. By doing so, the British doomed millions, and even blockaded the area so that jews could not get through, even though some 115,000 found their way around the British blockades. In 1947 The Exodus, a ship, was intercepted by the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean Sea with over 4,500 Jews aboard. The ship was led to Haifa port under British escort, and then the Holocaust survivors were forcibly transfered to another ship and returned back to Germany via France. It would be that there would be more rioting of the Arabs and slaughtering of Jews, many times while the British looked on and did nothing. Eventually the British turned over control of the area to the UN and the UN decided to split the remaining areas that were not parts of the countries they had already made between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews were to get a strip of land along the coast of the Mediterranian that included Tel Aviv and Haifa, a piece of land surrounding the Kineret including the Golan Heights, and a large chunk of the uninhabitable Negev Desert. Arabs were given the Gaza Strip, a chunk of the north that included the city of Tzaft and western Galilee, and the entire West Bank of the River Jordan and the hills of Judea and Samaria. Israel was officially a nation on May 14th, 1948, but almost immediately five Arab nations declared war upon them and Egypt bombed Tel Aviv. These five nations were Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq. That's 600,000 Jews against 45,000,000 Arabs. And the UN did nothing. And little Israel won! However, the UN lost control of Jerusalem and it fell under Jordanian control. Yet, Israel controlled more land after the start of the war than it did before it started. Five countries picked a fight they thought they could not lose and lost. But the Jews lost 1% of their total population, a heavy price to pay. -continued-
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:37:04 PM EDT
It should be noted that had the US lost 1% of it's population in The Vietnam War, that would have equalled some 2.5Million men and women. The five Arab nations did not accept their defeat so easily, and on May 22, 1967 declared war upon Israel againl, starting with the Egyptian blockade of The Strait of Tiran. On May 27, 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser declared "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." On June 1, 1967, Iraq's President Abel Rahman Aref said much the same with "Our goal is clear, to wipe Israel off the map." Egypt and Syria already had a pact combining their armies, and Egypt quickly made a similar deal with Jordan. Isreal, sensing war was imminent, launched one of the most successful pre-emptive strikes in history. They quickly bombed the entire Egyptian Air Force while it was still sitting on the ground, all the while Egypt broadcast that it had scored a major victory to cover up their shame. The next day Israel did the same to Jordan because they believed the Egyptian propoganda. Israel gained large chunks of land from the people who had sought to destroy them, including taking control of the city of Jerusalem. It bears noting that while the Jordanians who took control of Jerusalem in 1948 burned, looted and destroyed over 60 synagogues and denied Isreali access to the city, the Israelis did not harm in any way the Dome of the Rock or any other mosque, and access to these sites has been uninterupted for any Arab since. Thus ends the history lesson
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