linky



(That's Thomas Jefferson, not George, btw.)

Does it matter whos it is?

Quoted: Does it matter whos it is?

It's an attempt to 1-up the traditionalists in our country by saying "But... but... it belonged to TJ!".

meh.

It's really a whole lot of nothing.

Except a foot in the door for muslims.

And, exactly what is wrong with this?  What would an Athiest swear his/her oath on, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or . . . ?  Personally, I would do it on the Constitution of the United States.  

Why is it that too many people assume the US is a Christian nation?  Unlike many countries, we don't have a state religion.


Dave.

Yeah.  I heard about that.  makes me want to puke.

I have to believe Thomas Jefferson owned it as a reference book for other religious beliefs.  I cannot recall what specific denomination Thomas Jefferson was, but I'm betting on Christianity.

The difference here is that when Ellison swears in, he's Islamic, and it's not just a "reference book"

Quoted: Quoted: Yeah.  I heard about that.  makes me want to puke. I have to believe Thomas Jefferson owned it as a reference book for other religious beliefs.  I cannot recall what specific denomination Thomas Jefferson was, but I'm betting on Christianity. The difference here is that when Ellison swears in, he's Islamic, and it's not just a "reference book" Deist.

No, Christian.

I really don’t have much of a problem with Ellison being a Muslim…

I do have a very serious problem with his involvement with the Nation of Islam. As far as I am concerned being a member of the Nation of Islam is the equal of being a active KKK member or neo-Nazi.

Add to that his attendance at fundraiser for CAIR I would say he is not fit to hold office.

I just got to wonder what kind of fool would vote for a pass member of Nation of Islam and CAIR supporter.

Quoted: Yeah.  I heard about that.  makes me want to puke. I have to believe Thomas Jefferson owned it as a reference book for other religious beliefs.  I cannot recall what specific denomination Thomas Jefferson was, but I'm betting on Christianity. The difference here is that when Ellison swears in, he's Islamic, and it's not just a "reference book"

A good part of the reason he is choosing this particular Koran, and not his own family's is to appease those who seem to think that he should use a Bible anyway.

Dave.

Quoted: Quoted: Yeah.  I heard about that.  makes me want to puke. I have to believe Thomas Jefferson owned it as a reference book for other religious beliefs.  I cannot recall what specific denomination Thomas Jefferson was, but I'm betting on Christianity. The difference here is that when Ellison swears in, he's Islamic, and it's not just a "reference book" Deist.

Christian Kinda. He edited and made his own version of the bible. Christian in that he believed in the lessons of Christ. But not God

Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

Jefferson bible Wiki

Quoted: And, exactly what is wrong with this?  What would an Athiest swear his/her oath on, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or . . . ?  Personally, I would do it on the Constitution of the United States.   Why is it that too many people assume the US is a Christian nation?  Unlike many countries, we don't have a state religion. Dave.

Right, we don't have a state religion.  However, you are swearing an oath before your Creator...

WTF did Mohammed create?

Quoted: I have to believe Thomas Jefferson owned it as a reference book for other religious beliefs.

That's what I would think as well.  I'm sure he had book on or religious texts from many religions.

Quoted: Right, we don't have a state religion.  However, you are swearing an oath before your Creator... WTF did Mohammed create?

A "religion" designed in every aspect as a vehicle to carry him into power, which it did, very effectively.

However, to be fair, Muslims don't worship Mohammed. They worship Allah. They venerate Mohammed, but Allah is the creator; Mohammed is merely the one who received Allah's revelations.

If Thomas Jefferson's book collection became the freaking Library of Congress I'd say it's a safe bet he had a number of different religious texts.  Big deal.  There is at least one member here who owns a Koran because he took it off a jihadi who had gone to his reward of 72 ugly male virgins.  

Quoted: Quoted: And, exactly what is wrong with this?  What would an Athiest swear his/her oath on, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or . . . ?  Personally, I would do it on the Constitution of the United States.   Why is it that too many people assume the US is a Christian nation?  Unlike many countries, we don't have a state religion. Dave. Right, we don't have a state religion.  However, you are swearing an oath before your Creator... WTF did Mohammed create?

Then what do those do who firmly believe that there is no Creator, in the usual sense?

Dave.

Jefferson was not a Christian, he was a deist.
Some of his thoughts on religion.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

Quoted: And, exactly what is wrong with this?  What would an Athiest swear his/her oath on, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or . . . ?  Personally, I would do it on the Constitution of the United States.   Why is it that too many people assume the US is a Christian nation?  Unlike many countries, we don't have a state religion. Dave.

This nation was created from day 1 under the Judeo-Christian philosophy.   All of the founding fathers were of the Christian or Jewish persuasion.  (Mostly Christian.)  

At the time this country was founded, the Crusades were a not-too-distant memory, relatively speaking.  (About the same as the Civil war is for us today.)  

Jefferson had a Koran for one reason:  Know Thy Enemy.


At the time,  I believe that Thomas Jefferson and the other founders of this country didn't even see Islam as a distant threat to the US or our fundamentally CHRISTIAN-ORIENTED way of life.     And even though this country was founded on the principle of freedom of
religion,  I most seriously doubt that it would have been intended to include islam if
it had been seriously considered.

Islam has several features that make it particularly dangerous.  One is that whether
by declared intent or by circumstances,  when it becomes ascendant in a country, it
becomes embedded in government and then that government makes Islam not just
a religion, but the law of the land.    

That is reason enough to fight it,  by force of arms.

Islam also does not "play well with others" when it comes to religions.  The stance of
the Koran is that all who are not Islamic are to be converted, enslaved, or killed.

This is not a religion that is at all compatible with my most deeply held fundamental beliefs.    I resist any attempt to "normalize" it.

Certainly there are moderate Muslims, and I'm not worried about them...not much, anyway.  
But those who are NOT moderate,  are cause for concern.  You'd be a fool to believe otherwise.
If you're not one of THEM,  THEY want to change that.  If they can't,  they will make
your life shorter and/or unpleasant, if they can.


Radical Islam is CERTAINLY the enemy of America as it was envisioned to be by the
founding fathers of this country.

CJ

Quoted: Quoted: And, exactly what is wrong with this?  What would an Athiest swear his/her oath on, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or . . . ?  Personally, I would do it on the Constitution of the United States.   Why is it that too many people assume the US is a Christian nation?  Unlike many countries, we don't have a state religion. Dave. This nation was created from day 1 under the Judeo-Christian philosophy.   All of the founding fathers were of the Christian or Jewish persuasion.  (Mostly Christian.)   At the time this country was founded, the Crusades were a not-too-distant memory, relatively speaking.  (About the same as the Civil war is for us today.)   Jefferson had a Koran for one reason:  Know Thy Enemy. Look up the Treaty of Tripoli It states in both of its versions that Islam is not an enemy, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." At the time,  I believe that Thomas Jefferson and the other founders of this country didn't even see Islam as a distant threat to the US or our fundamentally CHRISTIAN-ORIENTED way of life.     And even though this country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion,  I most seriously doubt that it would have been intended to include islam if it had been seriously considered. Islam has several features that make it particularly dangerous.  One is that whether by declared intent or by circumstances,  when it becomes ascendant in a country, it becomes embedded in government and then that government makes Islam not just a religion, but the law of the land.  <----- Thats True. Although Turkey is a muslim country thats secular. As was Iraq before we invaded almost forgot Egypt, also Libya is a secular state That is reason enough to fight it,  by force of arms. Or imposing a secular dictator Islam also does not "play well with others" when it comes to religions.  The stance of the Koran is that all who are not Islamic are to be converted, enslaved, or killed.<---Spanish inquisition, the holocaust, and Martin Luthers treatise "jews and the lies they tell" show that indeed the christian religion can be as intolerant and murdering as the radical islamic faith This is not a religion that is at all compatible with my most deeply held fundamental beliefs.    I resist any attempt to "normalize" it. It was in my life time that they changed the law were people from different races could marry. Many people back then resisted attempts to normalise it Certainly there are moderate Muslims, and I'm not worried about them...not much, anyway.   But those who are NOT moderate,  are cause for concern.  You'd be a fool to believe otherwise. If you're not one of THEM,  THEY want to change that.  If they can't,  they will make your life shorter and/or unpleasant, if they can. Radical Islam is CERTAINLY the enemy of America as it was envisioned to be by the founding fathers of this country. Yes tyranny of any kind was always a concern of our founding fathers. That is why they spelled out an answer int he second amendment. CJ