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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:47:43 PM EDT
[#1]
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun.
*not a lawyer* |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:50:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun. *not a lawyer* Obviously, that's an easy one. But I'm talking having to repress the button every time you wanted to fire. Holding it down would do nothing. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:51:02 PM EDT
[#3]
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:52:17 PM EDT
[#4]
remote sniper?
cell phone activated? |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:52:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:54:18 PM EDT
[#6]
It would completely depend on the following:
Whether the Tech Branch "expert"* got laid the night before, had a cup of coffee and/or understood the concept. It would not, however, depend on previous decisions for other firearms, nor, if approved, would it be free from a spontaneous change in attitude based on another "expert" not having gotten laid, had enough coffee or being able to spot the error in the famous H&K ad. 
* Remember - the ATF is one of the few agencies in existence where the job title, not training, experience or education, determines whether or not you are a qualified and/or expert witness, as well as a place where the Daubert and Frye standards (and the Scientific Method) are all theoretical, rather than binding concepts. 
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:55:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Remington did it over 10 years ago.
http://www.gunweek.com/2003/feature0210.html Eta, you're gonna have to clarify wtf you're talking about. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:59:08 PM EDT
[#8]
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome.
I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil. I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:03:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome. I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil. I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay. What is that? But the same could be said for a lot of firearms... There is always that "kit" out there. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:11:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. Larger point would be that I don't know how it would meet the definition of a machine gun merely by having an uber sensitive electronic trigger. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:15:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now? |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:17:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: It would completely depend on the following: Whether the Tech Branch "expert"* got laid the night before, had a cup of coffee and/or understood the concept. Pretty much, this is it.  |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:18:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now? No sir. But isn't the definition of a machine gun one trigger pull producing more than one shot? If the electronic trigger on a real firearm produced only one shot per trigger pull no matter how rapid it's rate of fire then I don't see how it could be classified as a machine gun. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:19:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now? They regulate paintball silencers. Click me - I'm a BS free link to the horse's mouth. Q: Are Paintball and/or Airgun Sound Suppressers NFA firearms?
The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax. See also "What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?” and "How does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm?”for application details. If you have any further questions as to the classification of a paintball or airgun silencer, please send a written request to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a), 27 CFR 479.11] |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:20:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper. What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader? |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:23:59 PM EDT
[#16]
http://www.foundry.ray-vin.com/firearms/copperhead/copperhead.htm
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:25:10 PM EDT
[#17]
I suspect the ATF would want some sort of physical mechanism in the lock that blocked the pin from striking without the trigger being released first.
A solenoid system on a switch for a trigger and lock system would be pretty neat, IMHO. One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 8:55:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick. That would be awesome, but then you need a few more batteries, manual backup required. This solution would fix the crappy trigger of many bullpups. Separate batts for hammer and mag release would be best, so you could still fire with the less powerful solenoid (3lb). For the OP: SOT is Special Operations Tax for Class III/NFA Manufacturers, such as building M16s or for buying miniguns. Lots of paperwork for everything, not easy/cheap to get and do, or maintain. This allows a company to experiment with new firearm technologies without running into existing laws, such as Magpul, etc. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:13:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome. I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil. I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay. Not necessarily. There are (semi-auto) Pardini "standard" and "rapid fire" pistols available with electronic triggers. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:30:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome. I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil. I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay. How about possession of an Emory crank and 1919 and an electric motor? I would think that by the interpretation you're saying the ATF might try to make, the possession of all three of those at the same time would be possession of parts that can be readily assembled into an MG, right? I wouldn't put anything past them. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:31:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick. That would be awesome, but then you need a few more batteries, manual backup required. This solution would fix the crappy trigger of many bullpups. Separate batts for hammer and mag release would be best, so you could still fire with the less powerful solenoid (3lb). I don't think a manual backup would be necessary as long as you aren't using it defensively. I don't think I would ever trust my life to any gun that relies heavily on electronics. You also wouldn't really need more than one battery. To use paintball as an example again. Tippmann, kingman, and a few other companies offer electronic triggers for their markers. All they are is their basic mechanical marker, but with an electronic solenoid to trip the sear, many of which are on par with real firearms in terms of trigger pull weight. All they use is a basic 9v battery and they last thousands of cycles before needing to replace it. You could very easily run an electronic trigger and magazine release system off of one 9volt battery with few problems. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:31:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15... ETA: Maybe he had some uncapped NXL or PSP ramping going on... |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:35:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Doesn't matter what he had the old timmys were so bad about mechanical and electronic bounce that I can be reasonably sure that he was getting 2-3 shots for every legitimate trigger pull. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper. What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader? Halo's could do 30 ish in spurts on a low feed neck and strong spring, but it was inconsistent. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:39:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:41:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: no, you didn't. Most of the regs and air systems were, and still are incapable, of really getting there. This is 30 on an Rt mag Quoted: Quoted: I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...  |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:41:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball. lol, what about playing VSC with a Phantom pump? I had an blue/black acid washed VSC with the T-stock, 15rd tube, 16in barrel, and clear parts! 
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Posted: 8/9/2011 9:59:19 PM EDT
[#27]
quote]Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't matter what he had the old timmys were so bad about mechanical and electronic bounce that I can be reasonably sure that he was getting 2-3 shots for every legitimate trigger pull.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper. What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader? Halo's could do 30 ish in spurts on a low feed neck and strong spring, but it was inconsistent. I was about to say something about bounce, but I had a sneaking feeling he wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs9SPy3cMM&NR=1
RT mags were and still are bad ass, I really need to get mine put back together. But that a pneu mag, they have pneumatics in the trigger frame similar to an autococker. Actually a lot of markers these days are capable of doing 30 bps very easily. They just won't be very consistent as far as velocity, and most loaders can't keep up. The ones that can probably blend paint like no other. Quoted:
Quoted:
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball. lol, what about playing VSC with a Phantom pump? I had an blue/black acid washed VSC with the T-stock, 15rd tube, 16in barrel, and clear parts! I love my phantom  it's by far still my favorite style of marker. I've had about 5 of them over the years.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 10:13:47 PM EDT
[#28]
A fully electronic trigger setup on a semi auto firearm is a no go according to the ATF. It's "readily convertible" according to them. There was a tech branch paper on it a few years ago posted on THR I think.
If it were legal do you REALLY think someone wouldn't have done it by now? As for the uber light electronic trigger idea, it wouldn't work on a real gun for the same reason a super light short travel trigger is unsafe on an AR- recoil trips it and cause it to go full auto or double. Maybe if you got the recoil down with a huge JP comp and used a heavy rifle with a light carrier it might be workable but it'd still be illegal. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 10:18:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick. That would be awesome, but then you need a few more batteries, manual backup required. This solution would fix the crappy trigger of many bullpups. Separate batts for hammer and mag release would be best, so you could still fire with the less powerful solenoid (3lb). For the OP: SOT is Special Operations Tax for Class III/NFA Manufacturers, such as building M16s or for buying miniguns. Lots of paperwork for everything, not easy/cheap to get and do, or maintain. This allows a company to experiment with new firearm technologies without running into existing laws, such as Magpul, etc. Yeah, forgot that part, but there should still be a physical button for manual release. One could possibly use something like a LiPO battery, and even power other things (lights, red dot sights) from it as well. Make the battery rechargeable, or a very common type, and have a physical backup, and it could be OK. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 10:28:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot. apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now? They regulate paintball silencers. Click me - I'm a BS free link to the horse's mouth. Q: Are Paintball and/or Airgun Sound Suppressers NFA firearms?
The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax. See also "What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?” and "How does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm?”for application details. If you have any further questions as to the classification of a paintball or airgun silencer, please send a written request to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a), 27 CFR 479.11] Um, don't two major airgun makers sell sound suppressed airguns?
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Posted: 8/9/2011 10:36:27 PM EDT
[#31]
The only thing the ATF cares about is that it fixed on the airgun, so it cant be used on a firearm. I've seen the letter floating around paintball sites.
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Posted: 8/9/2011 11:00:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: no, you didn't. Most of the regs and air systems were, and still are incapable, of really getting there. This is 30 on an Rt mag Quoted: Quoted: I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull. no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode. Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs9SPy3cMM&NR=1I back up your assessment that his claim is shenanigans. I've met some of the best players in the world, and world class backmen cant top 24ish (MAYBE) or so without ramping. |
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Posted: 8/9/2011 11:06:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Hijack:
All my own custom work and ano.     Me as a kid ~19 dipping parts in a dye bath. That is almost exactly ten years ago.    |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 12:01:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Um, don't two major airgun makers sell sound suppressed airguns? They might - I'm just posting what the T-men have to say on the issue. |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 2:31:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Hijack: All my own custom work and ano. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/BLUBLKAW_1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/TigerStripeTES_LS.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/YellowHateRS.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/COBALTFADE_2.jpg Me as a kid ~19 dipping parts in a dye bath. That is almost exactly ten years ago. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/Daveano.bmp http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/Sunburst3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/bloencustoms2k/Paintballguns/2right.jpg yeah.... that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.... are you trying to sell your services or something? off the topic of paintball please 
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Posted: 8/10/2011 3:49:39 AM EDT
[#36]
The Government will not allow this type of product in consumer hands. At this point I feel lucky Obama hasn't issued a no knock because I have a cabinet full of ARs.
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Posted: 8/10/2011 4:03:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Some single shot 'free pistols' had such a system a long time ago.
I have it in a high end airgun and really like it for punching holes in paper, not sure I would want it in any practical gun other than a benchrest rifle |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 10:46:53 AM EDT
[#39]
If the E trigger from my paintball gun was on my Ar, it wouod bump fire so easy it would seem like 1 pull = more than 1 round.
Way too easy to get screwed on that one. Besides, paintball guns are nowhere near as safe as real guns. They malfunction and shoot all the damn time. |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 11:05:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun. *not a lawyer* You don't need to be a lawyer to offer-up common sense.
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Posted: 8/10/2011 11:19:50 AM EDT
[#41]
Why not more links to the old Remington system?
Although, it was in place on a bolt-action rifle and required a special primer. |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 11:34:59 AM EDT
[#42]
No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger.
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Posted: 8/10/2011 11:36:13 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Um, don't two major airgun makers sell sound suppressed airguns? They might - I'm just posting what the T-men have to say on the issue. Gamo still makes the Whisper. I believe it's legal because it is integrated into the barrel(until the ATF says otherwise). |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 12:34:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger. Another thing to consider would be the programing withing the electronic trigger if it used it. I am going to assume if they test it, and they find a way to reprogram it they would be hauling someone off to jail. |
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Posted: 8/10/2011 12:51:10 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 8/10/2011 1:01:53 PM EDT
[#46]
On an only tangentially related note, anyone remember the caseless ammo firearm prototype Daisy made for .mil?
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Posted: 8/10/2011 1:21:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Why not more links to the old Remington system? Although, it was in place on a bolt-action rifle and required a special primer. There was one on EE for sale..... |
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Posted: 8/11/2011 10:50:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: i have seen some electronic triggers but they where on single shot 22 rifles and a muzzleloader.Quoted: No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger. Another thing to consider would be the programing withing the electronic trigger if it used it. I am going to assume if they test it, and they find a way to reprogram it they would be hauling someone off to jail. there was no way to fire additional rounds. i imagine the trigger would have some form of take up to aid in safety, and a form of reset. a lot of the aspects of the mechanical trigger would have to remain for it to work on a semi auto. with solid state electronics and an epoxy coated circuit board, it would be hard to reprogram it. it would be easier to make a new gun from scratch |
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