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Posted: 8/9/2011 7:44:48 PM EDT
SO I got a question inspired by this thread.

Would it be legal to set up an electronic trigger/solenoid on a firearm as long as it only fired one shot per trigger pull?

Or would that fall into "shoestring" territory?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:47:43 PM EDT
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun.


*not a lawyer*
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:50:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGocka:
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun.


*not a lawyer*


Obviously, that's an easy one. But I'm talking having to repress the button every time you wanted to fire. Holding it down would do nothing.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:51:02 PM EDT
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:52:17 PM EDT
remote sniper?

cell phone activated?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:52:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 7:53:34 PM EDT by cyrus-the-virus]
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:54:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:55:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2011 12:21:45 AM EDT by Dan_Gray]
Remington did it over 10 years ago.
http://www.gunweek.com/2003/feature0210.html
Eta, you're gonna have to clarify wtf you're talking about.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:59:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:03:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brass:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome.

I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil.

I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay.


What is that?

But the same could be said for a lot of firearms... There is always that "kit" out there.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:11:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 8:16:04 PM EDT by gopeterson]
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.

Larger point would be that I don't know how it would meet the definition of a machine gun merely by having an uber sensitive electronic trigger.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.


apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:17:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:
It would completely depend on the following:

Whether the Tech Branch "expert"* got laid the night before, had a cup of coffee and/or understood the concept.


Pretty much, this is it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:18:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eswift:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.


apples to apples the atf regulates paintball now?


No sir. But isn't the definition of a machine gun one trigger pull producing more than one shot? If the electronic trigger on a real firearm produced only one shot per trigger pull no matter how rapid it's rate of fire then I don't see how it could be classified as a machine gun.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:19:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:20:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 8:22:42 PM EDT by cyrus-the-virus]
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.


Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper.

What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:23:59 PM EDT
http://www.foundry.ray-vin.com/firearms/copperhead/copperhead.htm
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:25:10 PM EDT
I suspect the ATF would want some sort of physical mechanism in the lock that blocked the pin from striking without the trigger being released first.

A solenoid system on a switch for a trigger and lock system would be pretty neat, IMHO.

One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:55:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:13:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brass:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome.

I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil.

I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay.


Not necessarily. There are (semi-auto) Pardini "standard" and "rapid fire" pistols available with electronic triggers.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:30:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brass:
I've shot some match pellet guns with electronic triggers, and a crisp 1oz pull with 1mm takeup and reset is extremely awesome.

I'd suggest a bit heavier trigger for any rifle with recoil.

I can guarantee that if it is a magazine fed weapon, like the AR, an electronic trigger would need an SOT to build it, since making it full auto could be done by anybody who has made their Xbox controller auto fire with a $9 "kit" from eBay.


How about possession of an Emory crank and 1919 and an electric motor? I would think that by the interpretation you're saying the ATF might try to make, the possession of all three of those at the same time would be possession of parts that can be readily assembled into an MG, right?

I wouldn't put anything past them.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:31:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brass:
Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:

One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick.


That would be awesome, but then you need a few more batteries, manual backup required. This solution would fix the crappy trigger of many bullpups. Separate batts for hammer and mag release would be best, so you could still fire with the less powerful solenoid (3lb).


I don't think a manual backup would be necessary as long as you aren't using it defensively. I don't think I would ever trust my life to any gun that relies heavily on electronics.

You also wouldn't really need more than one battery. To use paintball as an example again. Tippmann, kingman, and a few other companies offer electronic triggers for their markers. All they are is their basic mechanical marker, but with an electronic solenoid to trip the sear, many of which are on par with real firearms in terms of trigger pull weight. All they use is a basic 9v battery and they last thousands of cycles before needing to replace it.

You could very easily run an electronic trigger and magazine release system off of one 9volt battery with few problems.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:31:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 9:37:09 PM EDT by Scarpa]
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...


ETA: Maybe he had some uncapped NXL or PSP ramping going on...
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:35:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.


Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper.

What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader?
Doesn't matter what he had the old timmys were so bad about mechanical and electronic bounce that I can be reasonably sure that he was getting 2-3 shots for every legitimate trigger pull.

Halo's could do 30 ish in spurts on a low feed neck and strong spring, but it was inconsistent.

Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:39:06 PM EDT
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:41:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Scarpa:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...
no, you didn't. Most of the regs and air systems were, and still are incapable, of really getting there. This is 30 on an Rt mag





Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:41:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nvgeologist:
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball.


lol, what about playing VSC with a Phantom pump? I had an blue/black acid washed VSC with the T-stock, 15rd tube, 16in barrel, and clear parts!
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:59:19 PM EDT
quote]Originally Posted By BobRoberts:

Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Yes. Yes I could. Upgraded electronic motherboard in Bob Long Intimidator. Still one tap per shot.


Then you are truly a god among men, since most PROFESSIONAL paintballers can only achieve a max of say 15-17 bps in spurts, let alone a consistent stream. That's with guns a hell of a lot nicer equipment than an old timmy. Most loaders can't do a constant 30bps on gun, only one that I'm aware can would be the Q-loader if you mounted it directly into the feed neck. but that isn't exactly a standard hopper.

What year timmy did you have? What board? What settings? What loader?
Doesn't matter what he had the old timmys were so bad about mechanical and electronic bounce that I can be reasonably sure that he was getting 2-3 shots for every legitimate trigger pull.

Halo's could do 30 ish in spurts on a low feed neck and strong spring, but it was inconsistent.

View Quote


I was about to say something about bounce, but I had a sneaking feeling he wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.

Originally Posted By BobRoberts:

Originally Posted By Scarpa:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.
View Quote


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.
View Quote


Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...
View Quote
no, you didn't. Most of the regs and air systems were, and still are incapable, of really getting there. This is 30 on an Rt mag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs9SPy3cMM&NR=1
View Quote


RT mags were and still are bad ass, I really need to get mine put back together. But that a pneu mag, they have pneumatics in the trigger frame similar to an autococker.

Actually a lot of markers these days are capable of doing 30 bps very easily. They just won't be very consistent as far as velocity, and most loaders can't keep up. The ones that can probably blend paint like no other.

Originally Posted By Scarpa:
Originally Posted By nvgeologist:
Bah, if you're not using an SL-68, you're not playing paintball.
View Quote


lol, what about playing VSC with a Phantom pump? I had an blue/black acid washed VSC with the T-stock, 15rd tube, 16in barrel, and clear parts!
View Quote


I love my phantom it's by far still my favorite style of marker. I've had about 5 of them over the years.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 10:13:47 PM EDT
A fully electronic trigger setup on a semi auto firearm is a no go according to the ATF. It's "readily convertible" according to them. There was a tech branch paper on it a few years ago posted on THR I think.

If it were legal do you REALLY think someone wouldn't have done it by now? As for the uber light electronic trigger idea, it wouldn't work on a real gun for the same reason a super light short travel trigger is unsafe on an AR- recoil trips it and cause it to go full auto or double. Maybe if you got the recoil down with a huge JP comp and used a heavy rifle with a light carrier it might be workable but it'd still be illegal.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 10:18:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brass:
Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:

One related thing I've thought would be cool would be on a bullpup rifle, have a solenoid that activates the magazine release, and a button placed where it could be easily actuated with the strong hand. With drop free mags, that could make reloading time very quick.


That would be awesome, but then you need a few more batteries, manual backup required. This solution would fix the crappy trigger of many bullpups. Separate batts for hammer and mag release would be best, so you could still fire with the less powerful solenoid (3lb).

For the OP: SOT is Special Operations Tax for Class III/NFA Manufacturers, such as building M16s or for buying miniguns. Lots of paperwork for everything, not easy/cheap to get and do, or maintain. This allows a company to experiment with new firearm technologies without running into existing laws, such as Magpul, etc.




Yeah, forgot that part, but there should still be a physical button for manual release. One could possibly use something like a LiPO battery, and even power other things (lights, red dot sights) from it as well. Make the battery rechargeable, or a very common type, and have a physical backup, and it could be OK.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 10:28:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 10:36:27 PM EDT
The only thing the ATF cares about is that it fixed on the airgun, so it cant be used on a firearm. I've seen the letter floating around paintball sites.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 11:00:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobRoberts:

Originally Posted By Scarpa:
Originally Posted By cyrus-the-virus:
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
I believe it would be legal. Had a paintball gun with a double length trigger and could shoot thirty balls a second because of rapid tapping. Still one shot per trigger pull.


no, no you couldn't... not without ramping or some other mode.


Shit, I maxed out at around 23-26bps on my right hand, and my left was around 14-15...
no, you didn't. Most of the regs and air systems were, and still are incapable, of really getting there. This is 30 on an Rt mag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBs9SPy3cMM&NR=1




I back up your assessment that his claim is shenanigans. I've met some of the best players in the world, and world class backmen cant top 24ish (MAYBE) or so without ramping.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 11:06:32 PM EDT
Hijack:

All my own custom work and ano.










Me as a kid ~19 dipping parts in a dye bath. That is almost exactly ten years ago.





Link Posted: 8/10/2011 12:01:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 2:31:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 3:49:39 AM EDT
The Government will not allow this type of product in consumer hands. At this point I feel lucky Obama hasn't issued a no knock because I have a cabinet full of ARs.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 4:03:16 AM EDT
Some single shot 'free pistols' had such a system a long time ago.

I have it in a high end airgun and really like it for punching holes in paper, not sure I would want it in any practical gun other than a benchrest rifle
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 8:40:41 AM EDT


Your thread got derailed like 10 posts ago, and I found some old ass pictures. Felt a need to post them, hence the hijack
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 10:46:53 AM EDT
If the E trigger from my paintball gun was on my Ar, it wouod bump fire so easy it would seem like 1 pull = more than 1 round.

Way too easy to get screwed on that one. Besides, paintball guns are nowhere near as safe as real guns. They malfunction and shoot all the damn time.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 11:05:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGocka:
If holding down a button enables contiunous fire, it's a machine gun.


*not a lawyer*


You don't need to be a lawyer to offer-up common sense.

Link Posted: 8/10/2011 11:19:50 AM EDT
Why not more links to the old Remington system?

Although, it was in place on a bolt-action rifle and required a special primer.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 11:34:59 AM EDT
No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 11:36:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tango7:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Um, don't two major airgun makers sell sound suppressed airguns?


They might - I'm just posting what the T-men have to say on the issue.


Gamo still makes the Whisper. I believe it's legal because it is integrated into the barrel(until the ATF says otherwise).
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 12:34:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Top_Secret:
No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger.


Another thing to consider would be the programing withing the electronic trigger if it used it. I am going to assume if they test it, and they find a way to reprogram it they would be hauling someone off to jail.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 12:51:10 PM EDT


Link Posted: 8/10/2011 1:01:53 PM EDT
On an only tangentially related note, anyone remember the caseless ammo firearm prototype Daisy made for .mil?

Link Posted: 8/10/2011 1:21:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SamW:
Why not more links to the old Remington system?

Although, it was in place on a bolt-action rifle and required a special primer.


There was one on EE for sale.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 10:50:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scarpa:
Originally Posted By Top_Secret:
No way they would ever allow it. E-triggers are so light the recoil would set it off. If you did make it heavy enough, you might as well be using a mechanical trigger.


Another thing to consider would be the programing withing the electronic trigger if it used it. I am going to assume if they test it, and they find a way to reprogram it they would be hauling someone off to jail.
i have seen some electronic triggers but they where on single shot 22 rifles and a muzzleloader.
there was no way to fire additional rounds.

i imagine the trigger would have some form of take up to aid in safety, and a form of reset.
a lot of the aspects of the mechanical trigger would have to remain for it to work on a semi auto.

with solid state electronics and an epoxy coated circuit board, it would be hard to reprogram it.
it would be easier to make a new gun from scratch

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