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Posted: 6/16/2015 5:31:05 PM EDT
I have a Zinsco panel in my house had a guy come out to give me a quote to replace.
I have an outlet in the house that I cannot cut the power to that's what started all of this. Internet search on the Zinsco breakers and panel had me call. He checks the incoming service from the Electrical companies meter into my house wire is alum. No grounds on the panel. He says code today calls for 2 8' copper rods into the ground. Only good news is I have an 8' copper rod so he only needs 1. He is giving me a quite to redo the outside ( 75 feet of copper to new panel) and the new panel. Cheapest part of this will be the new inside panel. On the phone he said panel is around $1,200 can't imagine what all of this will cost. Insurance companies are denying coverage on these old panels and feeds of alum wire. Nice to be retired. Wife spent 6 days in the hospital in March that cost $4,000 out of pocket. Getting another guy out Friday for a second quote. The outside box 
Update 8/21 Neighbor who is an electrical contractor (has lic) got back into to town a few weeks ago gave me a price 20% lower then the other ones I had. He will install the outside panel next Tuesday or Wednesday. That will give me my generator connection which may come in handy since there is hurricane heading our way. He'll do the inside panel the following week. Guy is an Israeli. Father is from Greece. He didn't have time to talk but said he'd tell ma all about his life in Israel when he did the job. He has been in this country 20+ yrs. |
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Posted: 6/16/2015 5:38:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Why use copper? Al is a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't really understand what you're saying...what is he replacing, the main service and sub panel? Where's the 75ft of wire going?
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Posted: 6/16/2015 6:03:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Al. service wire from the pole to the main breaker in your panel is still standard today and only needs to be replace if its not big enough for your new panel. Also what kind of panel are you getting that cost 1200 bucks? They are a couple hundred bucks all day long at Lowes, Home depot, etc.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 6:13:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Stranded Al is just fine.
It was solid Al wire that created problems on 15 and 20 a circuits. Go price panels at a big box. Sounds like he is soaking you badly. What size is your service? Read the number from the handle on the big breaker at the top of the panel. And do NOT hire this guy. While you are going to have to upgrade your grounding system to the present code there are a lot of places with just a clamp on a water line. That was acceptable a long time ago. |
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Posted: 6/16/2015 6:29:43 PM EDT
[#4]
What everyone said. I'm an electrician, I could see that panel replacement costing you anywhere from 600-1000 total. And no copper from the pole to panel, unless it is underground and they are trying to use an existing undersized conduit.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 9:00:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Line from electrical company is underground and not my responsibility.
The cable from the side of my house across the garage ceiling in currently alum. He said local code calls for copper. Ground cannot be just to water pipe most of our water pipe is plastic doesn't do much for ground. Everything he is talking about he says is code in our town and local ins company requirements. I am getting a second quote and will also contact the guy up the street who is an lic electrical contractor but nothing he has done around here is cheap. I will check local code on the copper vs alum thats for all the information. I have 200 amp service and others in the area say $1,000 - $1,500 is normal for a panel replacement here in South Florida. |
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Posted: 6/16/2015 9:01:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why use copper? Al is a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't really understand what you're saying...what is he replacing, the main service and sub panel? Where's the 75ft of wire going? 3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. |
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Posted: 6/16/2015 9:31:58 PM EDT
[#7]
You also only need one ground rod but everyone just puts two in so they do not have to test them.
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Posted: 6/16/2015 9:41:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why use copper? Al is a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't really understand what you're saying...what is he replacing, the main service and sub panel? Where's the 75ft of wire going? 3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. If your town or county follows the National Electrical code then Al. service entrance cable is fine from what you have posted I think you are being taken for a ride. here is a link to what it looks like and its $3.74 a foot x 75 = $280.50 http://www.lowes.com/pd_10155-295-13107808___?productId=3127469&pl=1&Ntt=service+entrance+cable Here is the link to a 200 amp Siemens 40 circuit panel cost $148.00 http://www.lowes.com/pd_374169-1318-P4040B1200CU___?productId=3532974&pl=1&Ntt=200+amp+indoor+electrical+panel |
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Posted: 6/17/2015 12:41:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Al. service wire from the pole to the main breaker in your panel is still standard today and only needs to be replace if its not big enough for your new panel. Also what kind of panel are you getting that cost 1200 bucks? They are a couple hundred bucks all day long at Lowes, Home depot, etc. Plus breakers, plus installation... |
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Posted: 6/17/2015 4:25:59 PM EDT
[#10]
I am a buyer for an electrical distributor ...here is my 2 cents.
Definitely lose the Zinsco panel because breakers are 3 times what GE, Cutler Hammer, ITE, and Square D will be. Around here (Pittsburgh), the high side on a full service replacement is $10 an amp. A fair price is more along the lines of 75 cents per amp, so a 200 amp service is about 1200-1500 installed. You also might have to pay an inspection fee, which is around $25 here. A full service will include the main breaker panel, all breakers (this can vary with quantity, and if it is new construction where codes require the very pricey combo arc faults), meter socket, connectors, 2 ground rods, grounding clamps, all connectors, Aluminum service wire, copper ground wire, weather head, straps, etc. Basically, everything is replaced from the panel to where the wires are connected at the top of your house (assuming it is not an underground fed service). We also require 2 ground rods, so I am not sure about only needing 1 in your state. As far as needing to do copper wire for the service (not the grounding wires), that is news to me. No one around here uses copper unless it is commercial applications (We only use SEU/SER rated wire for services). I would call an electrical distributor in your area (not Lowes or Home depot, but a true electrical distributor like Graybar, or a small family owned one). A good distributor can give you a fair quote on the whole package and probably give out a few electrician's numbers as well. Some electricians will allow you to buy the material and you only pay for labor, but most prefer to buy the material , as they get better prices and then they charge you for the material and labor. It should take roughly 4 hours for an install. |
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Posted: 6/17/2015 5:59:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Working to get a cable across an attic in FL in the summer, ouch. So you are talking about coming from the outside meter to the old/new panel location?
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Posted: 6/17/2015 7:37:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Pics in OP |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 10:01:10 AM EDT
[#13]
Looking at the pics, that is a bit more work than I thought. They are tapping the load wires off the main to feed the subpanel, which is fine as long as the sub has a proper breaker. That will have to be reworked, adding to the labor. Were you also replacing that main breaker?
Not really sure why they wanted to run copper to your inside panel, unless that they are thinking that the new run of 200 amps worth of AL just wont fit somewhere. AL cable like that is about as big around as your wrist. Are you SURE you have a 200 amp need inside the house? All electric appliances? Multiple A/C units? |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 10:04:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why use copper? Al is a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't really understand what you're saying...what is he replacing, the main service and sub panel? Where's the 75ft of wire going? 3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. Are you saying that the main breaker next to the meter is also owned by the elec. company? |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 10:21:51 AM EDT
[#15]
A 200 A disconnect , pull meter, a few hours at best. Does another conduit leave the outside disconnect and go up the wall, or how do the main feeders get to breaker box in house?
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Posted: 6/18/2015 2:48:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Top photo is on it's side left is actually the top red label it goes through conduit up the outside wall then in across the ceiling to the breaker box in the utility room.
The right side is the feed from the meter. I own from the meter on the electrical company is responsible for lines to the meter. In the picture down lower you see the meter, big box that feeds the house and also the box to the left which feeds the pool pump. It has a 50amp breaker and uses 12ga wire to feed the pump. Guy said it ip only needed a 30amp so 12ga was okay he would install New panel with 30 amp breaker. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 2:51:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at the pics, that is a bit more work than I thought. They are tapping the load wires off the main to feed the subpanel, which is fine as long as the sub has a proper breaker. That will have to be reworked, adding to the labor. Were you also replacing that main breaker? Not really sure why they wanted to run copper to your inside panel, unless that they are thinking that the new run of 200 amps worth of AL just wont fit somewhere. AL cable like that is about as big around as your wrist. Are you SURE you have a 200 amp need inside the house? All electric appliances? Multiple A/C units? Everything in the house is electrical I'd rather have more in case I want to add something also a good selling point when the time comes to move. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 3:32:44 PM EDT
[#18]
OP- From what you've described so far the initial proposal doesn't sound horrible.
Do you know if your jurisdiction requires ARC fault breakers when the service is upgraded? |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:16:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Top photo is on it's side left is actually the top red label it goes through conduit up the outside wall then in across the ceiling to the breaker box in the utility room. The right side is the feed from the meter. I own from the meter on the electrical company is responsible for lines to the meter. In the picture down lower you see the meter, big box that feeds the house and also the box to the left which feeds the pool pump. It has a 50amp breaker and uses 12ga wire to feed the pump. Guy said it ip only needed a 30amp so 12ga was okay he would install New panel with 30 amp breaker. 12 gauge wire is only good for 20 amps a 30 amp circuit needs a 10 gauge wire that whole mess looks like a fire hazard waiting to happen. That disconnect should be replaced with one that has a few spots for breakers That way you can feed your indoor panel and have a few breakers out side for your pool and not have a dangerous tap like you do. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:30:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Got a quote from a friend of a friend. All work including new wire $2,850 additional $450 for a generator hookup on the outside.
I would need to apply for the permit using paperwork signed by the owner of the company he works for. He would do it on two Saturdays outside first then inside. He said I needed two ground rods to meet code. He also plans to include the A/C breaker in the new outside panel. He said I currently have the thermostat wire run with the power for the A/C which is not current code. He did say some insurance companies are denying coverage with alum wire feeding the inside panel. He will only charge me the actual cost of the wire. Says new code requires a separate ground wire to the inside panel. So I need 3 for power and 1 for ground. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:31:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
12 gauge wire is only good for 20 amps a 30 amp circuit needs a 10 gauge wire that whole mess looks like a fire hazard waiting to happen. That disconnect should be replaced with one that has a few spots for breakers That way you can feed your indoor panel and have a few breakers out side for your pool and not have a dangerous tap like you do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Top photo is on it's side left is actually the top red label it goes through conduit up the outside wall then in across the ceiling to the breaker box in the utility room. The right side is the feed from the meter. I own from the meter on the electrical company is responsible for lines to the meter. In the picture down lower you see the meter, big box that feeds the house and also the box to the left which feeds the pool pump. It has a 50amp breaker and uses 12ga wire to feed the pump. Guy said it ip only needed a 30amp so 12ga was okay he would install New panel with 30 amp breaker. 12 gauge wire is only good for 20 amps a 30 amp circuit needs a 10 gauge wire that whole mess looks like a fire hazard waiting to happen. That disconnect should be replaced with one that has a few spots for breakers That way you can feed your indoor panel and have a few breakers out side for your pool and not have a dangerous tap like you do. New guy that came today (see my post below) would do just that and also power the A/C compressor from that new panel. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:46:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why use copper? Al is a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't really understand what you're saying...what is he replacing, the main service and sub panel? Where's the 75ft of wire going? 3 25' lines from Electrical company panel across my ceiling to panel in house. NEC says you can use al for service entrance. |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:49:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got a quote from a friend of a friend. All work including new wire $2,850 additional $450 for a generator hookup on the outside. I would need to apply for the permit using paperwork signed by the owner of the company he works for. He would do it on two Saturdays outside first then inside. He said I needed two ground rods to meet code. He also plans to include the A/C breaker in the new outside panel. He said I currently have the thermostat wire run with the power for the A/C which is not current code. He did say some insurance companies are denying coverage with alum wire feeding the inside panel. He will only charge me the actual cost of the wire. Says new code requires a separate ground wire to the inside panel. So I need 3 for power and 1 for ground. I have never not once heard of that part above in red. Al for a service feed or stove feed is fine and yes your indoor panel will be considered a subpanel which means 4 wires 2 Hots 1 Neutral and 1 ground which means you need SER cable with 3 4/0 wires and 1 2/0 ground |
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Posted: 6/18/2015 7:50:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP- From what you've described so far the initial proposal doesn't sound horrible. Do you know if your jurisdiction requires ARC fault breakers when the service is upgraded? I think NEC requires them for all living areas per 2014 update. |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 9:50:02 AM EDT
[#25]
ger42, I have a fishcamp house in FL and have my homeowners ins thru Citizens. Never heard of being dropped for having AL wires feeding a panel. Everyone has them. That copper vs al wire thing is still a pretty small part of the overall cost at 25, even 50'.
Are you in the Clearwater area by chance? That last quote is really HIGH....I know a elec cont. in clearwater who would give you a FAIR price. |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 11:40:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ger42, I have a fishcamp house in FL and have my homeowners ins thru Citizens. Never heard of being dropped for having AL wires feeding a panel. Everyone has them. That copper vs al wire thing is still a pretty small part of the overall cost at 25, even 50'. Are you in the Clearwater area by chance? That last quote is really HIGH....I know a elec cont. in clearwater who would give you a FAIR price. I just talked to the town Electrical Inspector (Plantation ,Broward county) and he said alum is code but insurance cos are denying coverage and requiring copper. He said you can go with the alum but I run the risk of my Ins company doing an inspection and dropping me. If I try to sell he says he can almost guarantee a home inspector will fail the house because the new homeowners would not get insurance. |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 12:15:45 PM EDT
[#27]
How is this possible?
I sell wire and cable to utility companies and know a ton off electricians. I have never heard of an insurance company requiring copper wire. I would also think they would legally be hard pressed to deny coverage (or get you so deep that you could not sell your house) when using long established industry (and worldwide) accepted materials that meet the electrical code. Sounds like you are being fed some bullshit, if it is not a requirement and the material is acceptable and widely used across the entire industry how could they deny you. I would think the insurance companies are asking for a lawsuit and I would be hard pressed to believe they all push this requirement. AL use as electrical wiring is totally acceptable as long as it is sized correctly for the application. Overhead transmission lines that carry most of the power across our country are AL. |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 2:36:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is this possible? I sell wire and cable to utility companies and know a ton off electricians. I have never heard of an insurance company requiring copper wire. I would also think they would legally be hard pressed to deny coverage (or get you so deep that you could not sell your house) when using long established industry (and worldwide) accepted materials that meet the electrical code. Sounds like you are being fed some bullshit, if it is not a requirement and the material is acceptable and widely used across the entire industry how could they deny you. I would think the insurance companies are asking for a lawsuit and I would be hard pressed to believe they all push this requirement. AL use as electrical wiring is totally acceptable as long as it is sized correctly for the application. Overhead transmission lines that carry most of the power across our country are AL. I agree someone is feeding the OP a bunch of Bull or doesn't understand the difference between service feeds and branch circuits . If he has a permit and has the work done to meet code which allows AL service feeds and it passes the inspection the insurance company would be asking for a lawsuit against them if they denying coverage. |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 2:50:04 PM EDT
[#29]
ger42, call your insurance co and settle this...I just reviewed my citizens policy and found no such thing.
And that bid from a friend of a friend is  , particularly since it looks like you are pulling the permit...
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Posted: 6/19/2015 3:00:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think NEC requires them for all living areas per 2014 update. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP- From what you've described so far the initial proposal doesn't sound horrible. Do you know if your jurisdiction requires ARC fault breakers when the service is upgraded? I think NEC requires them for all living areas per 2014 update. I do think you're right. I'm just not sure if Florida has adopted all or part of that requirement??? In addition, for the Op's knowledge, there can be a large difference in cost for a service change depending on the circuit count and cost of breakers IE - standard, GFCI and ARC faults, disconnects etc.. Add in the cost of a copper feed because the AL can't fit in an existing conduit, that's just an assumption on my part, and the OPs cost can skyrocket over what many consider the norm. ETA- Insurance Co requirements are getting ridicules |
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Posted: 6/19/2015 4:07:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ger42, call your insurance co and settle this...I just reviewed my citizens policy and found no such thing. And that bid from a friend of a friend is , particularly since it looks like you are pulling the permit...He told me he would do the work and I could go in later and tell them I had done it. He said a homeowner could do anything he want to his house and then go for the permit. I told him I would not want the work to start before I got a permit so he said the company he works for would sign a permit request but it would cost me $200 for the signature. The guy himself is a lic electricain and the company he works for is a lic contractor the just do commercial work and owner doesn't care what he does on his own time. He has done work this way for a friend of mine. The real issue doing it his way with no permit is if something goes wrong my insurance company would not pay a claim. If I wanted to sell the house a buyers inspector, if he is good, would want to see a permit. If my insurance company does an inspection they will want to see a permit. My house has been inspected 4 times by insurance companies since I moved in 2003. They wanted to see permits for any changes that had been made. They specifically asked if electrical had been upgraded. I had to show them roof and hurricane shutter permits. Their inspector looked everywhere taking pictures of everything. This guy might save me $1,000 in the short term but I am afraid it might cost me more down the road. |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 12:57:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He told me he would do the work and I could go in later and tell them I had done it. He said a homeowner could do anything he want to his house and then go for the permit. RUN |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 4:24:53 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is this possible? I sell wire and cable to utility companies and know a ton off electricians. I have never heard of an insurance company requiring copper wire. I would also think they would legally be hard pressed to deny coverage (or get you so deep that you could not sell your house) when using long established industry (and worldwide) accepted materials that meet the electrical code. Sounds like you are being fed some bullshit, if it is not a requirement and the material is acceptable and widely used across the entire industry how could they deny you. I would think the insurance companies are asking for a lawsuit and I would be hard pressed to believe they all push this requirement. AL use as electrical wiring is totally acceptable as long as it is sized correctly for the application. Overhead transmission lines that carry most of the power across our country are AL. I agree, too. It smells like BS to me. Here's an idea - call your insurance agent and get the scoop. Do you have a reputable agent? |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 4:29:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He told me he would do the work and I could go in later and tell them I had done it. He said a homeowner could do anything he want to his house and then go for the permit. Don't do this. <snip> I am afraid it might cost me more down the road. I consider the Building & Safety guys to be on my side. They help ensure a proper job is done. |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 5:48:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Called insurance agent he said alum was fine it's code. He also said when I do change the panel don't tell the insurance company if they send a notice out about my electrical he will inform them at that time. His words "let the sleeping giant lay".
He said it is better to do the change now. They are dropping homes with the panel I now have , just started doing it this year. They send a notice and give you 15 days to get it replaced.e |
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Posted: 6/23/2015 7:02:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Edited
They are different down there. |
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Posted: 6/27/2015 9:42:06 AM EDT
[#37]
The test requires you to drive another rod.
You could then remove it but why bother. Drive two and done. |
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Posted: 8/21/2015 7:28:55 AM EDT
[#38]
UPDATE
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Posted: 8/21/2015 10:10:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
12 gauge wire is only good for 20 amps a 30 amp circuit needs a 10 gauge wire that whole mess looks like a fire hazard waiting to happen. That disconnect should be replaced with one that has a few spots for breakers That way you can feed your indoor panel and have a few breakers out side for your pool and not have a dangerous tap like you do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Top photo is on it's side left is actually the top red label it goes through conduit up the outside wall then in across the ceiling to the breaker box in the utility room. The right side is the feed from the meter. I own from the meter on the electrical company is responsible for lines to the meter. In the picture down lower you see the meter, big box that feeds the house and also the box to the left which feeds the pool pump. It has a 50amp breaker and uses 12ga wire to feed the pump. Guy said it ip only needed a 30amp so 12ga was okay he would install New panel with 30 amp breaker. 12 gauge wire is only good for 20 amps a 30 amp circuit needs a 10 gauge wire that whole mess looks like a fire hazard waiting to happen. That disconnect should be replaced with one that has a few spots for breakers That way you can feed your indoor panel and have a few breakers out side for your pool and not have a dangerous tap like you do. Motor circuits have a different set of rules. See Article 430. Breaker size is based on motor horsepower (on the motor nameplate). Wire size is also based on horsepower. Breaker size is allowed to be increased to allow for motor starting without increasing wire size. |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 5:54:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Outside panel in.
The inside will be done next week. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:23:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outside panel in. The inside will be done next week. Outside panels seem to be a very regional thing. Other than out-buildings I do not recall seeing a lot of them in Virginia. They need to be 'weather-tight' and cost more so they only get used in locations that really need them (under the NEC). Same with an outdoor main cutoff on a house. It makes the interior panel a 4-wire feed instead of 3-wire. |
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