Effectiveness of 9mm used by Contractors in Combat

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Effectiveness of 9mm used by Contractors in Combat

Posted: 9/27/2005 4:29:36 PM EDT

I found this one over at "The Firing Line." This is a pretty good story of contractors doing battle with insurgents while gaurding convoys. One contractor describes using a 9mm Browning Hi-Power with good results.

www.gunweek.com/0910issue/feature0910.html

Posted: 9/28/2005 5:36:35 AM EDT

[#1]

In all, he shot six men with that FN High Power, and two more with a Beretta M-9 in 2003. He feels that the cartridge will usually suffice, and no one that he shot argued the issue with him. Nevertheless, he would have felt somewhat more confident with a heavier caliber. The ammo supply just precluded that being a practical issue.

Interesting. I think the problem with the 9mm are short barrels that people use on the US mainland. But I'm still a .45 ACP fan.

Posted: 9/28/2005 5:57:50 AM EDT

[#2]

Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:01:09 AM EDT

[#3]

Well placed 9mm FMJ's will kill you very dead… ask any SAS guy why he sticks with 9mm…

ANdy

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:06:42 AM EDT

[#4]

Israelis vs. Palestinians

Cats vs. Dogs

9mm vs. .45 ACP

any more hopeless causes?

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:19:23 AM EDT

[#5]

There's one of those Navy SEAL shows where a SEAL firearms instructor is talking about the Sig P226 they use. He goes "a lot of people are like 'eww, a 9mm!' But when I put two rounds in your heart and one in your head, it doesn't really matter what size it is, does it?" Of course, I also saw on the news where a police officer in N.O. had been shot in the head with a .45 and the doctors told him he was the first person they'd ever seen get shot with one and live.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:21:39 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

The Oil Drum o' Truth!

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:28:19 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

The Oil Drum o' Truth!

How about, Terrorist Dirtbags Behind Oil Drums O' Truth?

On the summary list he could add:
3. Terrorist Dirtbags really smell like sh**. Bathing the test speciman may provide differeng results.

4. Terrorist Dirtbags are noisy and wiggly. Lots of duct tape keeps them still behind the oil drum and keeps them substantially quieter.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:28:48 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

The Oil Drum o' Truth!

I have shot a 4" I-beam with .223 loaded with Nosler Ballistic Tips.

They went right on through, leaving a .30 caliber or bigger hole.

How much bullet was left after penetration is another question.

I'd imagine that a 55 grain bullet wouldn't have much trouble getting through ONE side of the drum, but would it be intact enough to make it through the OTHER side? Don't know. The 62 grain round with the steel penetrator might very well. A specifically-designed armor piercing round ought to, easily.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:29:11 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

We've done a lot of experimenting lately with 5.56 against automobile sheet metal and windshield glass. Performance was poor with both M192 and M855.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:32:59 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

Not O.P. but I have fired 55grn fmj (non AP) at 5 gallon plastic buckets filled with used motor oil and they did not go thru the other side. The bullet was laying at the bottom of the bucket and the lid to the pail was blown off. This was out of a MINI-14 so that may explain it....

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:33:41 AM EDT

[#11]

Great read. Thanks.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:33:56 AM EDT

[#12]

A friend was ragging me about me carrying a 9.

I replied that it was common knowledge that a 9mm round will only raise a welt, and asked him if he'd volunteer for a demonstration.

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:34:22 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

Not O.P. but I have fired 55grn fmj (non AP) at 5 gallon plastic buckets filled with used motor oil and they did not go thru the other side. The bullet was laying at the bottom of the bucket and the lid to the pail was blown off. This was out of a MINI-14 so that may explain it....

So you're saying you shot one round per outing...

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:36:12 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Not O.P. but I have fired 55grn fmj (non AP) at 5 gallon plastic buckets filled with used motor oil and they did not go thru the other side. The bullet was laying at the bottom of the bucket and the lid to the pail was blown off. This was out of a MINI-14 so that may explain it....

Did you have to file an environmental impact statement with the EPA?

Posted: 9/28/2005 6:42:14 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Did you have to file an environmental impact statement with the EPA?

Actually this was probably 20 years ago. Back when the town used to have an open trash hole. The caretakers of the "trash hole" would have several 5 gal buckets of used oil to mix with gas and help light the trash pile. As a young'n I couldn't resist the temptation to shoot a few of the buckets with my "new" mini.

Posted: 9/28/2005 7:08:36 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
There's one of those Navy SEAL shows where a SEAL firearms instructor is talking about the Sig P226 they use. He goes "a lot of people are like 'eww, a 9mm!' But when I put two rounds in your heart and one in your head, it doesn't really matter what size it is, does it?" Of course, I also saw on the news where a police officer in N.O. had been shot in the head with a .45 and the doctors told him he was the first person they'd ever seen get shot with one and live.

No surprise. When tested in the famous trials before 1911 adoption, the tests revealed that while more effective when hitting a body, .45 is considerably LESS effective than a 9 mm. for headshots.

The MAIN advantage of the .45 is that can be shot through a silencer without any reduction of velcity, being already SUBSONIC, and its efficiency with range and terminal effects remains the same.

On the contrary, a 9 mm. para MUST be subsonic and the charge must be REDUCED. This mean that a subsonic 9 mm. has much less effectiveness that a normal 9 mm. in terms of range and terminal effects.

Posted: 9/29/2005 11:35:10 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted: No surprise. When tested in the famous trials before 1911 adoption, the tests revealed that while more effective when hitting a body, .45 is considerably LESS effective than a 9 mm. for headshots.

I read a news article years ago about .45 acp round sliding across and gouging the skull with an off-center shot. So the perp survived.

Posted: 9/29/2005 11:37:26 AM EDT

[#18]

Does ANYONE here know about the ARFCOM ammo oracle?

Posted: 9/29/2005 11:52:47 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There's one of those Navy SEAL shows where a SEAL firearms instructor is talking about the Sig P226 they use. He goes "a lot of people are like 'eww, a 9mm!' But when I put two rounds in your heart and one in your head, it doesn't really matter what size it is, does it?" Of course, I also saw on the news where a police officer in N.O. had been shot in the head with a .45 and the doctors told him he was the first person they'd ever seen get shot with one and live.

No surprise. When tested in the famous trials before 1911 adoption, the tests revealed that while more effective when hitting a body, .45 is considerably LESS effective than a 9 mm. for headshots.

The MAIN advantage of the .45 is that can be shot through a silencer without any reduction of velcity, being already SUBSONIC, and its efficiency with range and terminal effects remains the same.

On the contrary, a 9 mm. para MUST be subsonic and the charge must be REDUCED. This mean that a subsonic 9 mm. has much less effectiveness that a normal 9 mm. in terms of range and terminal effects.

So the 147 Gold dot is less effective than a 115 Gold Dot?

Posted: 9/29/2005 12:15:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's one of those Navy SEAL shows where a SEAL firearms instructor is talking about the Sig P226 they use. He goes "a lot of people are like 'eww, a 9mm!' But when I put two rounds in your heart and one in your head, it doesn't really matter what size it is, does it?" Of course, I also saw on the news where a police officer in N.O. had been shot in the head with a .45 and the doctors told him he was the first person they'd ever seen get shot with one and live.

No surprise. When tested in the famous trials before 1911 adoption, the tests revealed that while more effective when hitting a body, .45 is considerably LESS effective than a 9 mm. for headshots.

The MAIN advantage of the .45 is that can be shot through a silencer without any reduction of velcity, being already SUBSONIC, and its efficiency with range and terminal effects remains the same.

On the contrary, a 9 mm. para MUST be subsonic and the charge must be REDUCED. This mean that a subsonic 9 mm. has much less effectiveness that a normal 9 mm. in terms of range and terminal effects.

So the 147 Gold dot is less effective than a 115 Gold Dot?

Exactly, the sub sonic 9mm loads are nothing to laugh over.

Training and shot placement.

Posted: 9/29/2005 12:22:47 PM EDT

[#21]

Tag

Other delightful controversies:

Mac vs. PC

Chebby vs. Ford

...

Posted: 9/29/2005 12:35:11 PM EDT

[#22]

It all boils down to shot placement. If I put 3 through your heart and lungs in 9 or 45 you will not get up.

Posted: 9/29/2005 12:39:53 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Seeing his bullets fare badly against the steel drums, he changes magazines, loading one topped off with Armor Piercing bullets. He holds center on the drum the “bad guy” is behind, and squeezes off three careful shots that center the barrel. His target leaps up and falls in a spastic shudder. His legs extend beyond the drums and he moves no more.

This is in reference to 5.56mm. I would think that an oil drum would not be of sufficient mass to stop a standard round.

Paging Old Painless?

I am sure this in reference to the 5.56 also. If you look at the pictures included in the article the weapon labeled as an M-4 appears to have either a 10 or 11 inch barrel. I'm sure that the short barrel would have an effect on how the ammunition performed, especially at the 200 yard distance mentioned in the article.

Posted: 9/29/2005 12:49:05 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Tag

Other delightful controversies:

Mac vs. PC

Chebby vs. Ford

...

AK vs AR

270 vs 30.06

Posted: 9/29/2005 1:01:47 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Tag

Other delightful controversies:

Mac vs. PC

Chebby vs. Ford

...

AK vs AR

270 vs 30.06

Aimpoint Vs. Eotech

Vulcan Vs. Hesse

Tastes great Vs. less filling

Posted: 9/29/2005 1:02:47 PM EDT

[#26]

Shooting at steel IPSC poppers with a production 9 is pretty tricky.

Especially, when all the guys with .45s can waltz up to the line and make the steel fall just from the sound of their slides being racked.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Effectiveness of 9mm used by Contractors in Combat

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