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Posted: 3/14/2005 9:04:13 AM EST
I'm really starting to wonder about this whole magnum mania... For years everyone shot deer or elk with a 30/30, a 270, a 308 or the good old '06. It worked great. (If you lived in Canada you used a .303 British). Some people may have used somewhat rarer calibers like the 250, 300 or 303 savage, or maybe a 35 remington, but again these calibers gained an enviable reputation for putting venison in the freezer... A few old codgers stuck it out and used .38/40, 44/40 or, god fordib, .25/20s and still reliably put meat in the larder...

Along comes magnum mania. 30/30 is now a wimp caliber, suitable only for shooting shrews at 12 feet, according to some of these gun writers. What everyone needs is a magnum. You have to be able to drive a 180 ballistic tip out to 500 yards with next to no bullet drop, so you can shoot that elk two mountains away. You HAVE to have a 300 Win Short Mag. Then again, you might see one three mountains away, so you'd better upgrade to a Ultra Mag....

What a complete crock of fermented goat shit!!! We have idiots here tramping around in the woods with a 26" heavy barrelled 7mm Mags equipped with bipod and 6 to 24 power scope... And the typical encoutner here is 10-40 yards. You physically cannot see more than 100 yards in any direction...! Better yet, these guys are flinching so damned hard they can't hit a bull in the ass at 24 inches...! Don't give me this "improved trajectory" bullshit. 95% of every shooter I've ever seen cannot reliably estimate 400 yards, let alone shoot that far with any degree of certainty...

I've been using a 308 model Seven for years. It absolutely flattens deer. If anything, I'm shooting handloads that are UNDERPOWERED. I got fed up with the shredded mangled meat, so I'm shooting loads equivalent to the old .300 Savage. Launching 150s at 2400 fps. Recoil is mild, the load works well, I don't flinch, the bullet goes exactly where I want it and deer roll over dead.... Modest velocities don't overstress the bullets, they open reliably without coming apart, do their business and drive completely through the other side. Never recovered one yet. If a 150 at 2400 will do a through and through and drop 'em deader than a box of rocks, why do I need a 150 at 3400???

Evidently this magnum craze might not quite be all its cut out to be... Did you guys see the newest hot thing in centerfire ammo? Its reduced recoil loads! The ammo companys are supposedly selling quite a bit of this stuff...

So let me see if I have this right.... You don't have enough gun unless its s 404 Jeffrey-based short magnum driving a 180 grainer to insane speeds, but some of the hottest selling stuff is reduced recoil loads for 30-06 and 270.... Gee. Maybe people are finding those Ultra mag cannons are quite what they like to shoot?

Does anyone else see the irony in this?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:06:16 AM EST
You're asking arfcom? Remember that this is where people believe that 9mms are for girls...
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:07:02 AM EST
It's the American Way buddy - we like it bigger, badder, better - even if it's not.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:07:04 AM EST
Magnums permit most people to shoot far beyond the range at which they should be shooting.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:08:04 AM EST
This would have been a timely observation, had you made it 50 years ago.

As it is...speed sells. Simple as that.

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:08:18 AM EST
According to the Arfcom hive mind, the 6.8spc and 6.5 Grendel are the best damned deer killers every made. These more or less approximate a good old fashion .250 Savage...

Interesting ain't it?

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:25:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 9:26:51 AM EST by Brohawk]
Living in the southeast, my .308 is the most powerful rifle I own, providing enough punch to take down any game I will encounter without beating me up.

Now if I were to move to Alaska I might look into a shoulder cannon...

Anybody who says they "need" a .338 WinMag, .700 Nitro, etc., for whitetail deer is overcompensating for something.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:32:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Anybody who says they "need" a .338 WinMag, .700 Nitro, etc., for whitetail deer is overcompensating for something.



I'll go ya one better than that.....you don't 'need' a magnum for anything in North America. You might 'want' one, but you don't 'need' it.

Game animals don't read ballistics tables, a properly constructed and well placed bullet will work every time.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:35:33 AM EST
I use to really like that show. Wouldn't it be great to have a friend like TC with his own chopper???
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:38:26 AM EST
To clarify the point:

I have no problem with any law abiding citizen acquiring any legal firearms they want.

The point is directed toward people who claim to "need" a 105mm howitzer for deer.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:40:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Magnums permit most people to shoot far beyond the range at which they should be shooting.



+1

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:44:19 AM EST
let me know when those magnum rifles are for sale
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:44:53 AM EST
It seems like most guys I know are taking deer with a bow and arrow anyway. I have never taken a shot at a deer over 40 yards. I actually felt a little odd shooting at the doe that close. I sort of felt like I should have just walked over and smacked her with the butt of the rifle!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:47:37 AM EST
Some of you guys are under the impression that Magnums do nothing and there is no place for them. Take a look at the reports of a magnum firing from longer barreled rifles such as a 26" and you will see the differences. Take a look at Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, and Eastern Idaho and you will see where a long range flat shooting round would be ideal. There is a place for everything.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:51:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Magnums permit most people to shoot far beyond the range at which they should be shooting.



This is it in a nutshell. Flatter trajectory means easier shooting, at least on paper.
No one wants to do their homework anymore. It takes time and practice and THINKING to become a good rifleman. EVERYBODY just wants the shortcuts. And it's also a power thing; we see the same shit with handguns. There's a REASON the .38 Special has lasted for over one hundred and twenty-five years. But no one wants to hear about it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:54:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
There's a REASON the .38 Special has lasted for over one hundred and twenty-five years. But no one wants to hear about it.



There is also a reason the .45acp has been around nearly as long.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:57:34 AM EST
Ok frozenny now your on my list. How dare you make me feel old, just because I shoot 30/30, .308,.303,30-06 and 300 savage. Agreed a person doesn't NEED anything bigger for the lower 48.

Nothing wrong with wanting or having big magnums, if there was you could say that if you only target shoot with your handguns there is no reason to own anything but 22's. The only reason I could see that I would hunt with one of the big cannons is for practice if I thought I was going to Africa or something like that.Same idea as useing light loads in a .308 to hunt small game, its good training.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:00:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Anybody who says they "need" a .338 WinMag, .700 Nitro, etc., for whitetail deer is overcompensating for something.



What me using a .460 Wby Mag on Rocky Mtn elk is over kill? Im not overcompensating for a small weiner, I just like the abuse! Im married for gods sakes!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:01:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By InFALliBill:
Some of you guys are under the impression that Magnums do nothing and there is no place for them. Take a look at the reports of a magnum firing from longer barreled rifles such as a 26" and you will see the differences. Take a look at Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, and Eastern Idaho and you will see where a long range flat shooting round would be ideal. There is a place for everything.



I'm not arguing that magnums do nothing, hell look at the numbers, there's a big difference. And yes, there's a place for magnums, but folks tend to forget that elk, moose, caribou and the other larger game animals were taken successfully for a lot of years with standard calibers.

One thing magnums do for us now is decrease the level of skill needed to place rounds on target. This is both good and bad. Good because most of us lead hectic lives with little time to get to the range, and the ranges many of us go to are equipped for long range shooting. This is also the reason it's bad. We don't get enough practice and are left with only a rough guess as to what that round is going to do at a said distance.

As I said above, a properly constructed and well placed bullet always gets the job done. We have to be skilled enough to produce that placement.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:01:23 AM EST
I've been told that my caliber preference is a bit on the overkill side of things. 2500 fps doesn't sound so "magnum" to me, but I am talking about .416" and 400 grains.

I figure dead is dead, and I doubt that hog would have been able to tell the difference between my .416 Rigby and a .30-06. I'm sure the results would have been the same. Like I said, dead is dead.

Do I need a .416 to cleanly take North American game? Hell NO!!. But I like to do it anyway. Not to mention it is good practice if I should ever get the chance to hunt dangerous game in Africa.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:06:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
Living in the southeast, my .308 is the most powerful rifle I own, providing enough punch to take down any game I will encounter without beating me up.

Now if I were to move to Alaska I might look into a shoulder cannon...

Anybody who says they "need" a .338 WinMag, .700 Nitro, etc., for whitetail deer is overcompensating for something.



.308? Heck, there's nothing in the SE that couldn't be dropped with a single shot from a 30/30
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:21:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 10:27:30 AM EST by green-grizzly]
If you reload, it is a little embarrassing how close the 30-06 is to the 300 mags in performance. Even the 300 RUM is less than 15% faster than a hot 30-06 load.

I used to hunt with a 30-06 but went to a 300 Mag a few years ago. I got a great deal on the 300, and it gives me about 10% more range than my 30-06. The recoil does not bother me. I like that extra bit of range, but I am not going to pretend that the 300 is anything more than a very marginal improvement over the '06. If I did not get such a great deal on the 300, I would still be shooting '06 and the elk would never know the difference.

The 30/30 is another story. It's ballistics are pretty horrible. You would be passing up a lot of shots where I live.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:26:23 AM EST
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