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Posted: 5/8/2004 4:44:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 4:54:13 AM EST by RipMeyer]
Pistol dueling. Ya got the balls to do it? I was just watching the history channel where Burr and Hamilton had it out. Then they showed Jackson in a duel. He gets hit, stands there and makes his opponent come back to the line at 8 yards and proceeds to drill him right in the chest. Then proclaims aww he only nicked me. The ball was 8 mm from his heart!!! That was one of many of Jacksons duels and or fist fights.


People got into duels for the slightest and stupidest reasons. I dont think its something I would want to dabble in.


BTW
Hamilton died on the exact spot his son died in a duel 2 years before. Burr choose the spot for that exact reason.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:46:48 AM EST
Neither the balls nor the stupidity.

If ever I'm in a fair gun fight it will be because I fucked up.


5sub
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:51:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:52:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Neither the balls nor the stupidity.

If ever I'm in a fair gun fight it will be because I fucked up.


5sub




In those days great public pressure was placed on defending ones honor in a duel. Could your reputation or honor stand it in the publics eye?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:05:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By RipMeyer:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Neither the balls nor the stupidity.

If ever I'm in a fair gun fight it will be because I fucked up.


5sub




In those days great public pressure was placed on defending ones honor in a duel. Could your reputation or honor stand it in the publics eye?



I'm answering in the time in which I live. (Today.)



5sub
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:06:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 5:06:51 AM EST by wetidlerjr]

Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Pistol dueling. Ya got the balls to do it?...



No, it's stupid.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:18:40 AM EST
Always cheat, always win.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:22:38 AM EST
Can I challenge in a game of Chess instead? I can defend my honor that way too without killing anyone.



Link Posted: 5/8/2004 2:31:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR_Rifle:
Can I challenge in a game of Chess instead? I can defend my honor that way too without killing anyone.






Yeah a good game of chess because there is no luck involved in the game of chess and if you lose you can come back and play again.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 2:32:40 PM EST
Personally I'd go for a round of Foul Mouth Scrabble.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 2:41:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 2:46:35 PM EST


I'm a lover, not a fighter.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 3:04:31 PM EST
I'd do it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 3:30:14 PM EST
assuming the guy I was dueling was known for chest shots, and I could pull a "The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly" or which ever Eastwood movie it was that they copied in Back to the Future 3 with the stove door under his shirt then no, I still wouldn't do it
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 3:45:03 PM EST
I'd do it if I had a MP5 and the other guy had a flintlock
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 3:46:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By RipMeyer:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Neither the balls nor the stupidity.

If ever I'm in a fair gun fight it will be because I fucked up.


5sub




In those days great public pressure was placed on defending ones honor in a duel. Could your reputation or honor stand it in the publics eye?



"Defending ones honor"= a stupid game in which you are offended because someone called you names to the point you want to kill them. Pretty lame excuse for using deadly physical force. Absolutely juvenile.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:00:56 PM EST
i've done it with paintball guns before. its a pretty big adrenaline rush
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:02:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Neither the balls nor the stupidity.

If ever I'm in a fair gun fight it will be because I fucked up.


5sub



Exactly!

Kevin
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:09:24 PM EST
THE WORLD ACCORDING TO CLINT

By Clint Smith

"The handgun would not be my choice of weapon if I knew I was going to a fight.
I'd choose a rifle, a shotgun, an RPG or an atomic bomb instead."

"The two most important rules in a gunfight are: always cheat and always win."

"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

"Make (your attacker) advance through a wall of bullets.

I may get killed with my own gun, bet he's gonna have to beat me to death with it, 'cause it's going to be empty."

"If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin'.
If you're not movin', someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on astick."

"When you reload (in low light encounters), don't put your flashlight in your back pocket.
If you light yourself up, you'll look like an angel or the tooth fairy -
and you're gonna be one of 'em pretty soon."

"Do something. It may be wrong, but do something."

"Shoot what's available, as long as it's available, until something else becomes available."

"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun,
what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"

"Don't shoot fast, shoot good."

"You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think will work, but I've found that
a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much the universal language."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

"You cannot save the planet. You may be able to save yourself and your family."
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:13:38 PM EST
Most of the upper class duels were supposed to be about honor and you just showed up and no one would get hurt.

For fun, try a method Jim Bowie used once. If you were challenged to a duel, then you got to choose the method. Jim got challenged, and he chose the have his left arm lashed to his opponent's left arm, both men would get large knives, and the fight would take place in an unlit barn at night. Of course, Jim won.

I could do the 'pistols at 20 paces' gig, but Jim's way? I would have to wimp out. Holy crap, he was a mean cuss. Hurts just to think about it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:29:27 PM EST
No, my balls are smarter than that.

The only duel I participated in included ~12k nuclear warheads, lasted 15 years and was still fucking stupid. Glad the other guy blinked.

CW
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:34:40 PM EST
There's a book called "The Deadliest Men" that you can find at the gunshows sometimes. (Sure its available on Amazon too). It cost about $25 and is worth every penny. It tells the storys of the top 100 people in the authors opinion.
Jim Bowie was something else, he'd do duels with pistols or knives or whatever. One time they gave Bowie and his opponent each a knife, locked them in a dark room and opened the door when it settled down. He won or survived many encounters. German fighter pilots in WW2 were unreal as well. Our top Ace's shot down like 25 planes. Their's shot down like 300. Many of those Russians who were considered to be less challenging than American or British pilots.
The book is an easy read because its broken up into 100 chapters and every person is interesting. Good stuff, enjoy it and pass it around to your co-workers too! (Unless you live in Commifornia and they'll turn you in for scaring them!)
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:38:14 PM EST
Absolutely.

But I would be certain to be the one that was challenged.

Rapiers. Sabers. Sharpened foils.

I have been fencing for 15 years.

Most duels fought were only for honor, but you were still required to make brave. 'First Blood' meant fighing until one of you was bleeding, then claiming that honor was satisfied. Only serious the most serious of situations demanded death, although accidental death was a distinct possiblity when dealing with a sharpened chunk of iron or steel.

Once pistols became common dueling lost its appeal to the higher classes (nobility), for they might have to face someone who had no training. Pistols required much less of a commitment in terms of training and ability to use. Not that they were used well without training, but to even swing a sword with any hope of connecting takes some dedication to training.

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:39:04 PM EST
I sometimes wish duels were still legal. It would make for a more polite and respectful society IMO.

Remember that the challangee often (always?) gets to choose the terms, conditions, and weapons.

I read of one duel that was single shot derringers at 100 paces. They each took aim, fired, and then went and shook hands.

Another was when a very short man challanged a large blacksmith to a duel. The blacksmith opted for sledgehammers in 6 feet of water, the challenger withdrew the duel and they became fast friends.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:41:58 PM EST
With today's social norms? HELL NO!

If I was going to go out to shoot someone to avenge an "insult", which is today called "pre-meditated" or "first degree" murder, I sure as hell wouldn't do it in any way which made it obvious I was the shooter... In addition the aforementioned "never fight fair" rule of survival.

Now, assuming 19th century norms? Yes.

Simplistic reasoning-> most of the uncultured, offensive assholes I come in contact with can't shoot. I can. Advantage: Scout.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By livefree:
German fighter pilots in WW2 were unreal as well. Our top Ace's shot down like 25 planes. Their's shot down like 300. Many of those Russians who were considered to be less challenging than American or British pilots.






Take that in context. The German pilots were often flying missions to defend their own airfields and local area. If they got shot down, they bailed out and walked or hitched a ride back to the airfield, and immediately (if they were able) got into another plane and took off to do battle again. They were defending their home territory in very close quarters, and as a result, they were extremely busy. And they didn't get the luxury of completing a hundred missions and then getting to go stateside. No, they were deep in the war every day, as they were under attack every day. Defenders never get a break that the enemy doesn't provide for them. Allied pilots, particularly Americans, had the prospect of going home after completing a hundred missions. If our pilots had been under the sort of circumstances that the German pilots were under, some of them would have multiple hundreds of kills as well.

Plus, the Germans were making planes faster than they could train pilots, so they almost always had planes available for any pilot to use once they got back to the airfield. This wasn't so true toward the end of the war, when our campaigns against German industry had created many critical shortages of parts and supplies necessary for their aircraft.

If you take a walk through the city of Schweinfurt today, you'll often see little brown balls in the gutters and find them in the dirt, and just about everywhere. They're rusty ball bearings, and they've been there since they were aggressively distributed throughout the city as a result of Allied bombing raids on the ball bearing factories in WWII.

CJ

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:02:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By livefree:
German fighter pilots in WW2 were unreal as well. Our top Ace's shot down like 25 planes. Their's shot down like 300. Many of those Russians who were considered to be less challenging than American or British pilots.






Take that in context. The German pilots were often flying missions to defend their own airfields and local area. If they got shot down, they bailed out and walked or hitched a ride back to the airfield, and immediately (if they were able) got into another plane and took off to do battle again. They were defending their home territory in very close quarters, and as a result, they were extremely busy. And they didn't get the luxury of completing a hundred missions and then getting to go stateside. No, they were deep in the war every day, as they were under attack every day. Defenders never get a break that the enemy doesn't provide for them. Allied pilots, particularly Americans, had the prospect of going home after completing a hundred missions. If our pilots had been under the sort of circumstances that the German pilots were under, some of them would have multiple hundreds of kills as well.

Plus, the Germans were making planes faster than they could train pilots, so they almost always had planes available for any pilot to use once they got back to the airfield. This wasn't so true toward the end of the war, when our campaigns against German industry had created many critical shortages of parts and supplies necessary for their aircraft.

If you take a walk through the city of Schweinfurt today, you'll often see little brown balls in the gutters and find them in the dirt, and just about everywhere. They're rusty ball bearings, and they've been there since they were aggressively distributed throughout the city as a result of Allied bombing raids on the ball bearing factories in WWII.

CJ




In addition, German rules for coutning kills were much looser than other countries. IIRC, it only took seeing a plane go down smoking to get credit (common occurence), which American pilots did not get credit for. The fact that they were in the war for 6 years did not hurt, either, as the best of them lived through a significant portion of the war. Although most of them died miserable deaths, trapped in burning wrecks plummeting to the Earth, shattered by large caliber shells or falling into the hands of the Russian peasantry who had imaginative ways of ending their careers.

In fact, that last part applies to many Allied pilots as well. Young men killed in the prime of their lives.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:24:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 5:29:18 PM EST by eodtech2000]

Originally Posted By livefree:
There's a book called "The Deadliest Men" that you can find at the gunshows sometimes. (Sure its available on Amazon too). It cost about $25 and is worth every penny. It tells the storys of the top 100 people in the authors opinion.
Jim Bowie was something else, he'd do duels with pistols or knives or whatever. One time they gave Bowie and his opponent each a knife, locked them in a dark room and opened the door when it settled down. He won or survived many encounters. German fighter pilots in WW2 were unreal as well. Our top Ace's shot down like 25 planes. Their's shot down like 300. Many of those Russians who were considered to be less challenging than American or British pilots.
The book is an easy read because its broken up into 100 chapters and every person is interesting. Good stuff, enjoy it and pass it around to your co-workers too! (Unless you live in Commifornia and they'll turn you in for scaring them!)



Russian pilots at the beginning of the war did suck, but after 1942 that was NOT the case. The Russians had some extemely good fighter pilots especially in the Guard units. Gen. Gunter Rall (275 victories) has even said who ever claimed the Russian pilots as being shitty doesn't know what the hell they are talking about!!! I might add, the Russians had the Best fighters from low to medium altitude, the Yak-3, La-5, and La-7 could eat Mustangs for lunch!

There were only 2 Luftwaffe aces to reach 300 victories, Erich "Bubi" Hartmann (352 victories) and Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn (301 victories)!

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann wasn't a dogfighter or dueler, he was a flying assassin!!! He would stalk an aircraft and then pounce them, he would not shoot until he was within 50 meters or closer so his 20 mm cannon and 2 13mm guns would be firing point blank with no chance of missing! He specialized in shooting down fighters. He shot down 6 P-51's from the 15th AAF in 2 sorties! He also was not a reckless pilot, he never lost a Wingman, he felt no victory was worth the life of a Wingman! At the end of the War we handed him over to the Russians who kept him in the gulags for 10 years, the Russians couldn't break him! If you can pick it up, "The Blonde Knight of Germany" by Raymond F. Toliver, Trevor J. Constable, it is an EXCELLENT read!

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:36:42 PM EST
I want the rules back that said men can have a fair fight without someone being charged with assault. If he wants to fight, and I kick his ass, or he kicks mine, whatever. It was a fight, thats what happens. Pussys. I hate the present.

Dueling? I think of that scene in Romeo and Juliet, the stupid modernized version with Leo in it. The seconds give them thier 9mm's with only one round, in the chamber. Sounds ok. Unless you get one in the melon or the pump, you should be able to survive a 9mm FMJ long enough to get to a hospital, right?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:41:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:42:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By PennvilleBill:
THE WORLD ACCORDING TO CLINT

By Clint Smith

"You cannot save the planet. You may be able to save yourself and your family."




That's a good one.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 10:16:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheLastBoyScout:
With today's social norms? HELL NO!

If I was going to go out to shoot someone to avenge an "insult", which is today called "pre-meditated" or "first degree" murder, I sure as hell wouldn't do it in any way which made it obvious I was the shooter... In addition the aforementioned "never fight fair" rule of survival.

Now, assuming 19th century norms? Yes.

Simplistic reasoning-> most of the uncultured, offensive assholes I come in contact with can't shoot. I can. Advantage: Scout.



have to keep in mind that if 19th century norms applied, then most people would have knowledge of firearms.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 10:52:15 PM EST
There are certain political figures I wouldn't mind challenging to a duel.


Pistols at 10 paces.



My only rule is that if you voted against the 2nd amendment, the it is only proper that you don't get a pistol.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 11:30:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 11:54:10 PM EST
I am not a violent person who holds irrational hatred within my heart.

Peace be with you.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 3:52:07 AM EST
You know that if the "Ultimate" Fighters have run into legal problems in most states even though they are adults choosing of their own free will to fight, a duel couldn't happen. I asked at Blockbuster why they didn't have any UFC videos for rent and the clerk said he thought they were too violent. The "Horror" section had plenty to choose from though.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 3:56:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By drew5337:
I want the rules back that said men can have a fair fight without someone being charged with assault. If he wants to fight, and I kick his ass, or he kicks mine, whatever. It was a fight, thats what happens. Pussys. I hate the present.




Why? What does the use of violence solve?
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:08:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By drew5337:
I want the rules back that said men can have a fair fight without someone being charged with assault. If he wants to fight, and I kick his ass, or he kicks mine, whatever. It was a fight, thats what happens. Pussys. I hate the present.




Why? What does the use of violence solve?



There are times that individuals simply cannot work things out unless they resort to violence. A few swings between neighbors could do wonders for their ability to get along, but instead we insist on treating each other 'nice' for irrational reasons.

Violence often puts the end to amny issues which would be left to fester for years. Just ask the Carthaginians. Or the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Many problems can be solved without resorting to violence.

Many problems which are currently solved with the courts could easily be solved with a short fistfight. Instead the courts side with one or the other and give the winner the other ones money.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:18:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Originally Posted By livefree:
German fighter pilots in WW2 were unreal as well. Our top Ace's shot down like 25 planes. Their's shot down like 300. Many of those Russians who were considered to be less challenging than American or British pilots.






Take that in context. The German pilots were often flying missions to defend their own airfields and local area. If they got shot down, they bailed out and walked or hitched a ride back to the airfield, and immediately (if they were able) got into another plane and took off to do battle again. They were defending their home territory in very close quarters, and as a result, they were extremely busy. And they didn't get the luxury of completing a hundred missions and then getting to go stateside. No, they were deep in the war every day, as they were under attack every day. Defenders never get a break that the enemy doesn't provide for them. Allied pilots, particularly Americans, had the prospect of going home after completing a hundred missions. If our pilots had been under the sort of circumstances that the German pilots were under, some of them would have multiple hundreds of kills as well.

Plus, the Germans were making planes faster than they could train pilots, so they almost always had planes available for any pilot to use once they got back to the airfield. This wasn't so true toward the end of the war, when our campaigns against German industry had created many critical shortages of parts and supplies necessary for their aircraft.

If you take a walk through the city of Schweinfurt today, you'll often see little brown balls in the gutters and find them in the dirt, and just about everywhere. They're rusty ball bearings, and they've been there since they were aggressively distributed throughout the city as a result of Allied bombing raids on the ball bearing factories in WWII.

CJ




In addition, German rules for coutning kills were much looser than other countries. IIRC, it only took seeing a plane go down smoking to get credit (common occurence), which American pilots did not get credit for. The fact that they were in the war for 6 years did not hurt, either, as the best of them lived through a significant portion of the war. Although most of them died miserable deaths, trapped in burning wrecks plummeting to the Earth, shattered by large caliber shells or falling into the hands of the Russian peasantry who had imaginative ways of ending their careers.

In fact, that last part applies to many Allied pilots as well. Young men killed in the prime of their lives.


Also keep in mind that many of the pilots with a high kill number fought in the spanish civil war, racking up plenty of kills there.

Hoppy8420
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:22:00 AM EST
Just watched "The Duel" from the Horatio Hornblower series. Horatio swears another officer, slightly his senior, has tried to kill him during an operation to seize a french ship. Doing this in front of the commanding officer forces Horatio to defend with his body what is only backed up with his testimony. Even though Horatio ends up with a certain shot to kill his rival he defers saying, "you're not worth the powder", which enrages the other guy to attack Horatio, whereupon he is shot by the commanding officer.

Anyway, that's why now we have lawyers.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:24:17 AM EST
We don't grow very many people who are brave (or stupid) enough to duel these days.
Once, all young men learned about honor and bravery as infants, and cowards were ostracized.

Your honor was literally worth your life.

Not many people would have the guts to engage in "Affairs of Honor" like these examples:

The Jim Bowie, and several other cases of duels fought in darkened rooms with blades.

The man challenged to a duel who specified sawed off shotguns at 10 paces. They killed each other.

The Jim Bowie duel on the beach at Galveston Texas. He had a dispute with a Spanish sailor.
They sat on a log, knee-to-knee, their leather pants were nailed to the log, and they had at it, the Spaniard with his dagger, Bowie with his famous knife.
Bowie was reported to have said later "When I've got my opponent stepping on his own guts, I figure the fights about over".

Perhaps the bravest were the men who were in the classic "Pistols for two, Coffee for one", formal duels. You usually had a day or so to think about it, and it was conducted under very strict rules with sword or pistol.
NO CHEATING. You stood up, faced a man, and defended your life.
No running, ducking, "spray and prey", or flinching.

There just aren't that many people today with that ability.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:49:08 AM EST
Honor and life are Symonymous, I owuld defend my honor as my life

I would have, and have had no problem to defend either, adn would do so again.

An organized Duel, with archaic or modern firearms or blades? Sure, there is nothing to fear onthis planet but dishonor and and disgrace. I would rather die going to heaven knowing I did right, than coward out and spend the rest of my life in a self imposed Hell
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:57:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By faris:
There just aren't that many people today with that ability.


You mean "with that stupidity". Who cares what someone else says about you? Does an opinion bother you THAT much? Puh-leeeze. there are more important problems to deal with than some perceived slight.
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